Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 108

I think the trick was that when I had it that loud I didn't play anything that would've bottomed out the woofers. Playing something bass heavy, or that had big bass peaks, like the 1812 overture, or the imperial march from star wars would've brought listening levels back down real quick. So to go real loud they really need to crossed, but they are capable of tremendous output in the right circumstances on their own.

There is A WARRANTY?!?!!?!

Oh most definitely. It's a lifetime warranty. Of course, the lifetime is mine,so the clock is ticking. Now's where's that triple martini I just whipped up?

Hey fellas,
Long time lurker here (on this particular thread) looking at possibly throwing my hat into the ring. I am in the process of moving into a place that has a pretty big open living/dining area, for an apartment at least - 19'3" x 27', with 11' high ceilings. I am looking to get a nice sound system in there and have exchanged a few emails with Dennis so far. All the reviews I've read thus far have made this a very compelling. That being said, I am considering getting a pair of the Philharmonitors and have a few questions that will likely lead to several more.

1. Are the Philharmonitors suitable fro the size of the room?
2. Dennis suggested the larger .75 cu ft cabinet for standalone use. if I were to add a subwoofer, I assume the .75 cu ft cabinets will still be better than the .5 cu ft one.
3. Would a set of 5 Philharmonitors make for a good HT setup?
4. Are there any other speakers (e.g., Salk SongCenter) that would be better suited as the center channel?
5. What type of amplification would be ideal to drive these speakers? I've looked at the Pioneer SC-55/57 for HT purposes - would this be suitable, or would I be short changing the capabilities of the speakers when listening to music? Would the speakers fare much better with a processor and a separate amp?

Thanks in advance for any/all responses, and thank you, Dennis, for your prompt responses to my emails! As much info as I've tried to obtain on building a sound system, I'm still pretty new to this, so please be gentle/patient with me! =)

1. I would think they might be a little small for a room this size
2. I'd go with bigger if you want to go that route
3. an awesome setup, but I think two towers up front and three philharmonitors would be even better especially for a 5000+ cubic foot room
4. I think the philharmonitor would be great as a center.
5. I would think an external amp would be better, at least for the front sound stage
6. unless you're going to get one massive sub, multiples are in order

i realize that the philharmonic towers would be more ideal given the size of my living space, but those speakers are going to be tough to get the wife to write off on. she's very interested in the aesthetics of the room. the cubic footage is actually even bigger b/c 5000 doesn't account for the kitchen to which the room is also pretty open to. that being said, this living arrangement is temporary (maybe 3-5 years max) and could be the most open space i will see in a room in a LONG time. i'm not looking to rock anyone's socks off...just looking for some pure listening enjoyment.

so curious, what kind of processors and amps have you phil owners been using to power your speakers?

Well if this is a system for a long time, especially in comparison to how long you'll be in this room and you really think any room after this will be considerably smaller I think 5 philharmonitors would be awesome. A little small for the room, but still delivering excellent, excellent sound at moderate listening levels.

I know ADTG is using a Denon something or other, and he was using a Denon and an ATI 2000 series amp. Right now I'm using an onkyo 3009 with an outlaw 755/cinepro 1K2/AB International 800.2/rotel rmb-1075 (briefly)/ and heard one good channel from a Perreaux 6000B

I can speak for the singing of the Philharmonitor IIs. Can't go wrong with them, however, the Phil2s are simply amazing to say the least.

 

I don't know how much the monitors are running now and I know the Phils have gone up considerably, but either choices would definitely be winners.

 

My experience with the monitor IIs is I think they can go very loud even with my little 6.5wpc tube amp. And I haven't given them a good chance at that.

 

Good luck on your decision!

you guys don't mess around, and it appears that these speakers are a bit power hungry? could you power a pair of the philharmonitors with just your onkyo 3009? or does it absolutely need a separate amp to shine? the reason i ask is that while i'd like to buy all of this at the same time, realistically, my sound system will have to be put together over some time. i just want to make sure i get pieces that don't hopefully don't need to be replaced anytime soon.

woodsart,
i'm glad you chimed in here too. i've read a bunch of your posts and it's what got my interest piqued in all this. i'm trying to get out and listen to someone's philharmonitor 2s - i think there's a pair heading out to socal in the near future and dennis is going to try to put me in touch with the owner when that happens. i may even be willing to buy the speakers without hearing them first. then the question becomes how i'd like to drive the speakers, i guess. iirc, you have the musical paradise amp? if so, which exact one and how has your experience been? TIA for all the info!

Whoops, didn't mean to lead you on, I don't have the philharmonitors. I was speaking from reviews that were written and from a rudimentary knowledge of physics. I have the philharmonic 3's. Yes you could totally power the Philharmonitors with the onkyo 3009. I know this because I've powered the Phil 3's with it and those are definitely more power hungry than the philharmonitors are sure to be. You definitely won't need to replace the philharmonitors anytime soon, especially if you use them for all 5 speakers. They're the same quality as the larger tower Phils, which makes them tremendous in terms of value and performance.

Don't forget though, multiple subs. Two if you can swing it, three for the future. It will help give you nice even bass response, plus you need it for such a big space. Even when you move to a small space it will keep bass response nice and even, plus if you get a quality sub it will retain it's value and you can always sell one.

I always hate to see these threads fixate too much on amplifiers. The monitors can play very loudly with any decent amplifier capable of an honest 80 watts per channel. 60 watts would really work, but I don't want to push it. It's all about speakers. Amplifiers are a very distant second unless you're talking about low and moderately low-sensitivity full-range speakers like the Salk SoundScapes and the Philharmonic 3. Then you need very stable amps that can blast out 25 Hz into 4 ohms. I know Van Alstine works, so I can recommend that line, but I'm sure there are lots of other choices.

dennis,
thanks for your input here. as i've relayed to you over email, i'm interested in the monitors 2s, but am concerned by the open-spaciousness of the apartment i'm moving into. i would like, for now, a pair of speakers that i can enjoy listening to music on. but somewhere down the road, i'd prob like to build a 5.1 system. i've looked into the pioneer elite line of receivers. the sc-65/67/68 all use class D3 amps and claim at least 130W per channel. i was looking to pair one of those receivers to the monitor 2s and build from there. if you have any critique/suggestions about this approach, i'm all ears! thanks!

Hi That sounds like a plan. I know a lot of people think you should use dedicated amps rather than receivers for best results, and that may be true in an ultimate quality sense, but I don't doubt that the Pioneer and the monitor 2's will fill your space with a lot of clean sound.

Just thought that I'd add: cubic volume applies mostly to the bass region if you want to be able to pressurize the room. In the mids and highs, needing 'more speaker' is simply a matter of how loud you want to listen to, from how far away.

If your MLP isn't too far from the speakers (~9-10 feet) and you're not looking to hit THX Reference levels for HT (and most folks with WAF considerations find that to be way too loud). The monitors should cover your needs easily, and if you decide you do want more in the future, you can still use them as surrounds.

As Dennis has mentioned, a decent avr shouldn't have a problem powering the monitors adequately. Something like the Onkyo 3009 (decent sales from time to time now that 3010 is out) with its 140wpc would be great).


Max

P.s. as far as bass goes, yes multiple subwoofers properly optimized will provide a much smoother bass response at multiple locations, and increase the ability to pressurize the room

I've had my Philharmonic 2 powered by both a Denon 4311 AVR (140W @ 8 ohm, no clue @ 4 ohm) and an Anthem MCA 2 (350W @ 4 ohms) in a 5000 square ft room, and the Denon does just fine, I found no difference using separates. I don't push the volume terribly high though, even after a few glasses of wine I don't get above -10 reference. I do swap back and forth using subwoofer, depending on the genre, which would make a difference. The Anthem is going back to powering my very hungry Polks, which needed it more.

The Onkyo 3009 may not be rated for 4 ohm speakers, and a quick search didn't answer the question, although there is a thread indicating that there are no problems but it does apparently get hot.

The 3009 kinda is rated for 4 ohm speakers. When you go into the settings you can set it to 8 ohm (or above) or 4 ohm (4-8 ohm) speakers. It gets hot pretty much no matter what

The 3008/3009/3010 can all power 4 ohm speakers just fine. In fact, even with 4ohm speakers, it's preferable to leave it in the 8ohm setting as the 4ohm setting triggers current limiting required by UL. The 8ohm setting will power the speakers just fine and not set current limiting.

The x008 models produce the majority of their heat from the HDMI/video board located in the right rear section. Many users opt to place a small heat extractor fan over that area just to ensure the video board temps are kept low. I've done this myself on my 5008 (which is only 5 watts more per channel than the 3008, an inaudible difference) and can confirm that it produces a 5-10 degree celsius drop in temps. The temperature rise due to the amps is actually not as bad. I only noted a temperature rise (before using a heat extractor fan made for PC's) when I cranked the Onkyo up to THX Reference, when it was the ONLY thing powering my 5.1 setup AND I was watching a movie with a LOT of loud explosions and effects. With the extractor fan placed over the right rear, the temp stayed below the internal fan's trigger point of 50c (or was it 55c? I know the internal Onkyo temp check never went above 49c with the fan, where it rose over 55c without, on the same movie at THX Reference).

I tried bridging to my LR (at the time, Boston Acoustics E100's. 89db/w/m power handling of 400watts), and noticed an improvement when turning the volume up above -15db to -10db. I then upgraded to Emotiva XPA-1's for the LCR and noticed further improvement, especially with volumes above -5db from THX Reference. At lower volumes though (-15db or lower from THX Reference) there was no audible difference to me between powering the speakers directly in standard fashion vs bridging or using the XPA-1s. The amp section in the Onkyo is in fact, VERY clean and also has quite an amazingly low noise floor.

Keep in mind, you can't bridge 4ohm speakers with the Onkyo units, but you can biamp them, which for all intents and purposes can potentially provide higher possible wattage if the speakers need it (if you turn them up). Now most folks will tell you that biamping with a passive crossover is a fool's errand and there is no benefit, and at moderate listening levels with minimal power draw, that's correct, but if you turn up the volume and there's a greater power demand by the speakers, the biamping can potentially make a difference. Even though all the power comes from the same power supply, there are sometimes limitations to how much power can be supplied by the output devices of each channel.

Take for example, the Emotiva amplifiers. The XPA-3 and XPA-5 both put out up to 300wpc @ 4ohms and have 6 output devices per channel, the XPA-2 puts out 500wpc @ 4ohms and has 12 outputs devices per channel, the XPA-1 puts out 1000wpc @ 4ohms and has 24 output devices for the single channel (monoblock amp). Emotiva advises against using an XPA-5 to drive just one or 2 speakers to very high levels as the power supply and rail supplying power to all the outputs is capable of handling the power for driving all outputs simultaneously at 300wpc each, but running only 1 or 2 speakers at very high levels/draw can potentially overload the output. Granted, it's not likely to happen at sane listening levels and they're probably just saying that to cover their bases, but the advice seems sound.

The point is though, that at higher volumes if the speakers draw more than 140wpc for peaks, biamping the 3008 to front L&R could potentially provide headroom for the extra draw.


Max

just as i imagined - the more question i have answered, the more question i end up having. so another option i'm considering is setting up a 2channel system right now. if i were to go this route and hook up an oppo player to a 2ch amp, is there an easy way i can add a subwoofer later on? or will i need a receiver or some other processor at that point? basically, how would i feed a signal to a powered sub? sorry if the terminology that i'm using is not quite precise.
Edited by jomama - 8/16/12 at 6:07pm

Dennis makes 3 monitors. One has a .5 cubic ft. cabinet and there are two with a .75 c. ft. cabinet. One with straight sides and another with curved sides (see woodsart's earlier posts for photos.) (I call them Philharmonitor .5 and Philharmonitor .75S and .75C) And Dennis says that they all use the same drivers - the 7" woofer and the ribbon that he uses in the Philharmonic 1.

Make that 4 monitors. The smaller .5 cu ft also comes with curved sides if you want them.

Yes, you can. It's a fairly simple process. The Oppo has a subwoofer output. Just connect the subwoofer to the Oppo with an RCA cable. Now go into the Oppo audio setup and change the LF/RF speakers to small then set the crossover point to whatever sounds best to you.

duc135,
thanks for your response. i did a little bit of reading up on this and noticed that certain people have reservations about doing this - something along the lines of adjustability of the output for the subwoofer. iirc, you can't easily adjust the level of the sub.

It's as adjustable as any other channel. You just can't do it on the fly like on most receivers. You'll have to go into the audio setup menu to do it.

What is the first song being played in the video? I've heard it before, but can't remember what it is.

-Mike

So let me get this straight, you can connect a regular power amp directly to the Oppo and negate the need for a pre-amp? I have been eying the Oppo BDP-95 and possibly a Vincent SP-31 pre-amp for my 2 channel setup. I would love to be able to go straight from the Oppo to an amp. Can you explain a little bit about this??

I think I remember Respighi's Pines of Rome being played in that video?

One of my favorites for the Phils, by the way. I have the Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Fritz Reiner SACD. Highly recommended.

Technically, yes you can. Just use the stereo analog pre-outs on the Oppo and go direct into your amp. Next, go into the audio setup in the Oppo and set your distances, trim and crossover points if you have a sub. The analog pre-outs on the Oppo send the same signal to the amp as the outputs on a pre-amp. The only difference is that the pre-amp may provide additional sound processing features that the Oppo doesn't. Things like Dolby sound modes or room correction algorithms. You may or may not need or want them.

Whether or not this setup will sound good enough to you will depend on your room. I have a well treated room and prefer the sound of the Oppo 95 analog outputs and bypassing the room corrections of my receiver when listening to music. YMMV.