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Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 121

post #3601 of 4611
What challenge? I've kind of lost you here. What are the plots in reference to?
post #3602 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

What challenge? I've kind of lost you here. What are the plots in reference to?

They were in response to the crown XLS2500 needing heavy EQ when paired with the Phils. I hooked up my crown XLS2500 and took those two measurements, one from the listening position and one from 1m aimed at the tweeter. Neither have any EQ applied.
post #3603 of 4611
There's a more to the way we hear than just a frequency response.
post #3604 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

There's a more to the way we hear than just a frequency response.
That depends on how one defines "frequency response", as almost everything else we do will fall under that blanket.

Turns out we have these little hairs attached to sensors in our head that are stimulated by vibration. That combined with some tactile sense of pressure is all there is to hearing. It's rather like the game "go"; very complex interactions, but very simple rules.
post #3605 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

There's a more to the way we hear than just a frequency response.

True, but having a flatish measuring speaker gives us a pretty good place to start. Additionally, if this was in response to the two graphs I posted they are highly relevant because given the description of what dj was hearing, something that drastic should have been measurable. The point was only to show that his wasn't a typical situation and that jumping to the conclusion that the crown must be awful wasn't necessarily the prudent thing to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

That depends on how one defines "frequency response", as almost everything else we do will fall under that blanket.
Turns out we have these little hairs attached to sensors in our head that are stimulated by vibration. That combined with some tactile sense of pressure is all there is to hearing. It's rather like the game "go"; very complex interactions, but very simple rules.

^ what he said biggrin.gif
post #3606 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

That depends on how one defines "frequency response", as almost everything else we do will fall under that blanket.
Turns out we have these little hairs attached to sensors in our head that are stimulated by vibration. That combined with some tactile sense of pressure is all there is to hearing. It's rather like the game "go"; very complex interactions, but very simple rules.

Really? I just thought God made a sound and then made me hear it the way he wanted me to.rolleyes.gif
post #3607 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post

True, but having a flatish measuring speaker gives us a pretty good place to start. Additionally, if this was in response to the two graphs I posted they are highly relevant because given the description of what dj was hearing, something that drastic should have been measurable. The point was only to show that his wasn't a typical situation and that jumping to the conclusion that the crown must be awful wasn't necessarily the prudent thing to do.
^ what he said biggrin.gif

I don't know what was going on in his case (maybe some phase shift in one of the amps?) but my AI preamp images much better than my old Parasound pre and receiver and I have no doubt if you looked at a frequency response from the speakers, they would look the same for all intents and purposes.
post #3608 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Really? I just thought God made a sound and then made me hear it the way he wanted me to.rolleyes.gif

Then I'm confused. What is it you think you hear that isn't a soundwave with frequency and amplitude?
post #3609 of 4611
Do two speakers that have the same frequency response when measured with a mic but are out of phase sound the same?

What about one speaker that has a longer decay time than another but had the same frequency response?

What about someone who eq's their speakers to have a flat response in room taking into account room reflections vs a speaker/room combo that measures flat without the eq? The slight delay from the early reflections won't show up in a frequency response plot but you can hear it.
Edited by mrlittlejeans - 12/14/12 at 7:32am
post #3610 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

*** I can't recommend the XLS2500 for audiophile music use without EQ/room correction. ***Anyway, the XPA-1 and Focus SE combo measures appreciably flat in my room even without EQ or Audyssey, but I still use Audyssey for the tightening up of the bass. I swapped in one XLS2500 on the left side and level matched it to the right side and played some of my regular audition music that I've listened to a lot. Imagine my disappointment when the soundstage collapsed to the right speaker. Haven't measured with REW to see what's happening, but from what I can hear, the XLS2500 is rolling off the mids and highs.

That's plausible. One thing I've been curious about with the Drivecores is how the output filter is implemented. With most Class D amps, the output filter can interact with the loudspeaker, leading to sonic differences in the upper midrange and treble.

The Legacy Focus may be one speaker that is especially sensitive to such effects. Here's Stereophile's impedance measurement for an earlier Legacy Focus model:


Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post

[graph deleted]

Looks fine to me

Interesting. What does the speakers' impedance curve look like in the treble? (I tried to find it on the website, but it's confusingly done, and I didn't have that much time to sort through it.)
post #3611 of 4611
This is the impedance graph from the website for the Phil 3

post #3612 of 4611
I have the Philharmonic 3 for coming to a week.  I'm glad the sturdy packaging for the woofer box saved me from a need to verify if Dennis can do a long distance warranty service.  They are indeed very well built.  Given that I own a pair of Phil 3, my opinion is certainly biased.  I'll also point out some of my objective findings as well during the search.  My impression is as follows:

Phil 3 are indeed awesome!  They look gorgeous.  I echo the findings of the other reviewers.  They have extremely good clarity, detail, wide dispersion and soundstage.  The ML-TL design with the revelator woofer packs an impressive range of very tight bass.  I am extremely impressed with the amount of detail and the accuracy in the overall representation.  Like the other reviewers, I was able to hear the longer transient vibrations of drums after being struck or the subsequent vibrations of a plucked string instrument being accurately and distinctly presented.  Vocals are also accurately and nicely blended with the instruments.  Everything is simply well blended and in harmony.  Accurate, detail and pack lots of punch!!

Below are my objective findings:

Ribbon tweeters tend to beam wide horizontally while narrow vertically.  I noticed this on the only two speakers with ribbons I have previously auditioned but not  so on the Raal used on the Philharmonic.  Taking into account for the slightly tilted front, I noticed that the only very high frequencies roll of at ~40 degree angle and ~3' from the Raal, and is very gradual.  I have tried with and without the foam and the difference is not very significant.  It has better vertical dispersion with the foams.  

The Phil 3's power is very balanced among the 3 drivers.  At fairly low sound level, I can hear the woofer producing its fair share of sound.  They remain well balanced, poised and well behaved as the volume increases.  I didn't pick up distortion or drivers fading out at relatively high volumes.

I only have a Marantz sr6005 receiver in a 2.0 setup in a relatively large room and originally thought I needed more power due to its relatively low sensitivity.  At moderate listening levels, my setup is doing just fine.  Movies tend to play softer than music.  I have cranked it up on a few occasions and there is still sufficient headroom.  Besides, there's always the bi-amp option for an additional 3db that I have yet to do.

To sum it up, I can feel that the philharmonic 3 speakers accurately convey the soul and spirit of the composer / performer rather than the speaker designer.  Dennis has indeed created a masterpiece!  Thank you Dennis for the Phil 3!

It's certainly hard to beat at the current price point for this level of performance.  
post #3613 of 4611
HI Lee Thanks for taking the time to report your reactions. The drivers and crossover frequencies were chosen to provide as broad a listening position as possible. Very few people want to be tied to a single point in space when listening to music in the home--I certainly don't. One comment on the foam diffuser pads for the tweeter. As you note, they do improve vertical disperion, both because of their shape and because they effectively shorten the height of the ribbon, which automatically improves vertical dispersion. But they also ramp the overall high frequency response down--slightly when placed as far apart as they can go, and substantially when placed closer together. The effect is very dramatic when measured, but less so in actual listening. At least for those of us over the age of, uh, 39.
post #3614 of 4611
Over on Audio Circle, I was asking about when speakers push in and out and how it would affect the woofer in the long term. As I like playing my music loud-ish, I would monitor (no pun intended!) the mid- woofer and limit it's in-and-out motion. One person suggested that I get a subwoofer for my Philharmonitor. So for under $100 used, I bought a Polk PSW-10". I got it today. Well, what a change! I can play my music louder with that little 7" midwoofer pulsating far less too. The music goes low even though it's only rated at 40hz +-3 db. The sound is much fuller and bigger.

Having said that, I only have a regular receiver so the speaker cable goes directly into the subwoofer/high pass filter (crossover) and then out to the Philharmonitors. It seems to me that since I hooked them up that the high frequencies are much harsher and less well recorded music is a bit irritating. I guess that I need to get a receiver with a sub out so that I can power the Philharmonitors directly.

Or am I just hearing things, Dennis? confused.gif
post #3615 of 4611
The crossover in that sub is probably pretty crappy which might be your issue.
post #3616 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

The crossover in that sub is probably pretty crappy which might be your issue.

Figured as much - and I like my Denon receiver too. frown.gif
post #3617 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

The crossover in that sub is probably pretty crappy which might be your issue.

^ This. Charmeci, in your situation I think popping for a new receiver would be worth while. Get one with preouts so you'll have the option of adding an external power amp if necessary down the road.
post #3618 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

^ This. Charmeci, in your situation I think popping for a new receiver would be worth while. Get one with preouts so you'll have the option of adding an external power amp if necessary down the road.

The point of the subwoofer is to reduce the load on the P's midwoofer. The preouts on a receiver will be able to do that? Or should I get an external crossover. (I"m on a budget here.)
post #3619 of 4611
A new receiver with bass management will do that.
post #3620 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci View Post

Figured as much - and I like my Denon receiver too. frown.gif

Come on, it's Christmas time, you deserve a new Denon AVR. biggrin.gif
post #3621 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci View Post

The point of the subwoofer is to reduce the load on the P's midwoofer. The preouts on a receiver will be able to do that? Or should I get an external crossover. (I"m on a budget here.)
A receiver with bass management will achieve what you're after; the preouts are an added insurance bonus in case you want to add a separate amp later on, or perhaps a 2-channel preamp with Home Theater bypass.
post #3622 of 4611
Hi Guys,
Not post here for a while, just to say happy Xmas to all of my Phil friends in the forum.
Remember I once posted reporting I always get my sound stage slightly shift to right side for my Phil2, and couldn't find the answer. Now I have the answer, and it is funny, so I like to share it here. You know what, the image shifting is all because the hearing sensitivity of my left ear and right ear are starting become unbalanced. I found out this accidentally during my physical exam, the doctor said my left ear wear out faster and now is hearing less than the right ear. After I go home, I do a simple test to validate this, I power on my gears with no music, just try to hear the background noise floor from the speaker with my left ear close to the speaker, and then repeat with my right ear. I do find that with my left ear I need to get closer to the speaker in order to hear the noise floor, compared to my right ear. So it is true the hearing of my left ear is getting worse. Oh man, I guess now I really start getting old!!! Hurry up, enjoy the music and the Phils before it is too late.
Next time when you guys have soundstage issue, one more thing to check is your ear. It is amazing how accurate the Phils are, they can be used as hearing detector in the doctor's office. smile.gif
Edited by avdigger - 12/19/12 at 9:36am
post #3623 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

A receiver with bass management will achieve what you're after; the preouts are an added insurance bonus in case you want to add a separate amp later on, or perhaps a 2-channel preamp with Home Theater bypass.

Actually, I do have pre-amp outs on this Denon. I'll try that on the subwoofer (into its amp) and then use the bass control on the receiver for the PM's.

Addition 1 1/2 hours later - yes, that did it! Just have to make fine tune adjustments but the harshness it gone. Happy! smile.gif
Edited by charmerci - 12/19/12 at 5:39pm
post #3624 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Come on, it's Christmas time, you deserve a new Denon AVR. biggrin.gif

Yes I do. biggrin.gif I just don't have the money. (Well actually I do - but then I'd be left with very little after that. frown.gif)
post #3625 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci View Post

Actually, I do have pre-amp outs on this Denon. I'll try that on the subwoofer (into its amp) and then use the bass control on the receiver for the PM's.
Addition 1 1/2 hours later - yes, that did it! Just have to make fine tune adjustments but the harshness it gone. Happy! smile.gif
That's awesome - congratulations!
post #3626 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci View Post

Yes I do. biggrin.gif I just don't have the money. (Well actually I do - but then I'd be left with very little after that. frown.gif)

Too bad.

For anyone interested, here is a great deal: Denon 3312 (MSRP $1100) for $493 as used open box from Amazon Warehouse and get the 3 yr Denon full warranty. I've talked to Denon support twice on this subject of Open Box/ 3 yr warranty. They consider the Denon from Amazon Warehouse as Open Box. It's like walking into your local Best Buy store and buying an open box AVR that was returned.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004Z50L6E/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1356014364&sr=8-1&keywords=Denon+3312&condition=used


Or the brand new Onkyo 809 (MSRP $1100) for $426 looks good.

http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR809-Certified-7-2-Channel-Receiver/dp/B00505F01E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356028586&sr=8-1&keywords=Onkyo+809
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 12/20/12 at 10:38am
post #3627 of 4611
I was typing up this PM to Dennis, but thought I would paste it here and maybe get some more input.

Dennis, thank you for responding to all of my questions. I found a buyer for my Paradigms so upon shipping them to their new owner, I will purchase a pair of your speakers, either the monitors or the Phil 2's. I still haven't decided on which model I will go with. I saw the pair of Satin Black Phil 2's that you said are available because the previous owner wanted to upgrade. Are they still available? Is there a picture that I can see of them or an example with the same finish? I would really have preferred them in Maple, but I don't think I can afford the extra $1200 or so after the price increase unless I wait a bit and temporarily use my Wharfedale 9.6 until I can save up enough.

Which brings me to my next question. With the recent price increase, it seems that the Phil 3's are a better value compared to the 2's than they were in the old pricing structure. If I'm not mistaken, the 3's pricing was 50% more than the 2's ($2000 vs $3000) but now they are only 13% more the the 2's( $3100 vs $3500). Please correct me if I'm wrong. Comparing the prices as I have, would you agree that the 3's are a better value? If the used pair of 2's are not available anymore, it almost seems like a no brainer to plunk down the extra $400 for the 3's. But being that I will be using my Parasound pre to cross them to dual Epik Empires, I guess I should just go with the 2's.

THEN, when I look at the price of the monitors I question whether I should save the cash and just go with them! Decisions, decisions.

Anyhow, please get back to me regarding the availability of the discounted 2's. I should be able to purchase them in a few days once my speaker sale is wrapped up.

Regards,
Dan
post #3628 of 4611
Hi The difference in price between the 2's and the 3's is just the difference in my woofer cost, pretty much to the penny. Everything else in the design and construction is identical. The used pair that are for sale are just like all the other black satin 2's with the Chinese cabinets. There are pics of those on my site--look for the pics of the Capital Audio show. At the initial price of $2000, the 2's were a total steal, as were the 3's at $3,000. I still think both the 2 and the 3 are bargains at the current prices (ranging from $2,700 to $3,500 depending on cabinet style). I can see where a lot of people would just want to plop down the extra $400 and tell their neighbors they have a ScanSpeak Revelator, but with a sub you would never know the difference. I've had a lot of interest in the used pair of 2's, although they've been from weird places far away. So they're still available, as are a pair of the monitors. Cheers
post #3629 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

But not quite yet for the new model. Hopefully, that will out in time for the Xmas shopping season. Or last-minute shopping season.

Hey Dennis.........we're getting down to the wire here..........or were you talking about next Christmas? biggrin.gif

Marv
post #3630 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by M S View Post

Hey Dennis.........we're getting down to the wire here..........or were you talking about next Christmas? biggrin.gif
Marv

Lies Lies and More Lies. I haven't even received the test cabinets yet. Everyone is busy busy. Let's see, what's another holiday I can use for a fictitious target date. Ground Hog's Day? That's the ticket.
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