Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 124

Thanks for the link. It's interesting that the author did not believe improvements in passive bi amp and has to be within 10hz of the passive crossover. The difference is ~400hz at the highest setting.

I just followed the wiring instructions from the receiver manual and remove the plate between the high and low freq connections. I noticed differences on the piece of music when changing the crossover on the receiver. I have removed the bi amp setup and revert to previous single amp setup.

I'm sure you did. You ran a filter in front of the filters.

Let's assume that the high-pass filter for the HF connectors is at 500Hz (and the low-pass filter is correspondingly at 500Hz).
Now let's assume you set the crossover at 400 Hz on your active.

Sounds between 400Hz and 500Hz would no longer be produced (as the hp filter will keep them from the HF drivers and your filter will keep them from the LF drivers).

Let the passive crossover do its job.

hey Dennis,

In January, business usually slows down so maybe I'll drum up a few orders for you by starting a thread over on Audio Circle.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113678.0

Hi I sold a speaker in January once. Back in the day. Thanks for inserting me on one of the Circle forums. Frank has always been super generous in lending me gear for the Washington audio show.

Well, the more I listen to your monitors, the more I enjoy them. (Huge difference with vs. without a sub.)

I'm listening to Dark Side of the Moon. ( Does anyone listen to this anymore? Or will admit to? ) Capitol 2003 SACD edition

Wow. Very nice. While it's the not the ultimate in speakers (and at this price no one expecting it to be) it comes through nice and clear and full. Even as background speakers, I'm listening to my other speakers much less.

Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.
Speakers DON'T suddenly break-in after 5 months.

Right?

Am I right?

So why are they sounding much better today? Well, they sound more or less the same. They just sound so much 'smoother.'

And no, nothing outside of my sub last month has been added.
Edited by charmerci - 1/30/13 at 10:00pm

For I am god, and my will be done.

I'd guess basic human psychology. Are you happier today than other days in the past?

Oh, and **** YES I LISTEN TO DSOTM!!

I really like The Wall. Mother is probably in my top 5 favorite songs.

Actually, I was kind of bummed this morning.

Also, I now remember that I did slightly reposition the speakers by few inches. So maybe....


I haven't listened to DSOM in years and the library had that version - and it really is a great sounding version as I was never really impressed with the quality of the album before.

Then I think it was my first guess...

Do you have Skype or an email? PM me.

repositioning speakers and your main seat can make a pretty major difference...toe in matters on other speakers (not so much Phils)

I like to start 3 feet off side and back walls, 10 feet apart, chair at 10 feet...

Speakers don't suddenly break in after 5 hours either. They occasionally break, but not in. And they always should have sounded smooth--at least they measured that way when they left the Philharmonic production facility. The one with all the dog hair.

People like Dennis, Jim Salk, Frank Van Alstine, talented musicians and others too numerous to mention make a world (sometimes hard to live in for me) a liveable place to live in. Thanks!!!!

From the pictures of most of you guys...I don't see the Phil's toed in much.

Do you guys toe yours in or are they generally straight?

I can't really tell a difference to be honest. So I've got them toed in, maybe 10 to 15 degrees.

During my auditioning period I tried toed in a bit but did not notice a big difference, so I left them straight.

+1!

No toe in for me.

Nor me. There's really no reason why they should work better toed in. If anything, the response is a little smoother 15-20 degrees off axis.

In my room and my setup, toe in makes a huge difference. With no toe in the sound stage is wider and the centered sounds are less of a pinpoint source and more of of a wide general sound and the stage also drops a considerable amount. what I mean by that is that it will sound like I'm sitting up on a stage while the performers are down below in the seats. Not much to my liking. The advantage of no toe in is that the soundstage seems to extend beyond the limits of the speakers.

With the speakers toed in, the sounds are more distinctly placed. You can point to where the different instruments and singers are located. The soundstage as a whole moves up. It now sounds like I am sitting directly in front of the performers, not above them. The disadvantage of toe in for me is that the soundstage seems to end where the speakers do. I'm still playing around with finding the best combination of toe in angle and distance from the rear wall as well as amount and location of acoustic treatments.

I suspect the fact that there's a rear-facing pattern as well might be in play here.

I had somewhat similar experience as duc and agree with Jerry.  The toe in pointed the rear wave away from the center.  You most likely have little stuffing in the tweeter and mid housing as a fully stuffed housing has very defined mid.

This is my experiment.  I pick a piece of music with tons of mid and little tweeter production as only the mid has the rear wave.  I remember I used Besame Mucho from Andrea Bocelli for this purpose.  To set the baseline, I play the music with the tweeter and mid housing fully stuff and empty.  

Using the internal brace as reference.  I stuff the top half where the tweeter is.  As for the bottom half, I find that stuffing horizontally, I lose a lot of soundstage as I gain vocal clarity.  So I ended up stuffing the middle vertically, covering about the area of the US dollar (~1/3 of the opening) using the tweeter and mid wires to support the fillings.  I try to get as much clarity from the vocal before I start losing too much of sound stage. 

My setting may be unique because the speakers are angled 45 degrees from the side walls from a corner of the room.  Feel free to experiment and hope this resolves your issue.  

Add me to the no toe-in list, at least when I had the Phil 2's. I don't think they "need" any toe, but I suppose it could vary based on each individual's room. A good place it start is with zero toe in, though.

As I am reading through this 124 pages...I found my answer on page 114:

Dennis:

"Hi. Interesting topic. Toe-in is really only needed when the speakers haave been optimized for on-axis response, both in terms of frequency response and phase integration. All of the Philharmonics have the flattest frequency response about 15 degrees off axis (which approximates your seated listening position at around 10 - 12 feet from the speakers), and the phase integration is also virtually as good as the on-axis results. Both the RAAL and Fountek ribbons have superior off-axis horizontal response, so there is no reason to point the drivers directly at the tweeter axis. Of course, if experimenting with different degrees of toe-in constitutes a gratifying domestic sport, then by all means experiment."

I sit nearfield and I toe-in as it sounds better to my ears.

That certainly makes sense, since the closer you sit, the farther off axis you will be to the tweeter and midrange if the speakers are pointing straight ahead.

As a side note, I was at an audio shop in Ottawa over the weekend to pick up a pair of PSB M4Us and I thought I'd listen to some speakers. I brought some cds with me for the cans. After playing about five different sets of speakers up to 10k with similar electronics that I own (i.e. Bryston 4BSST2), what surprised me was how much I prefer the Phils. The Phils are so balanced while all the speakers I auditioned had something odd in one area or another, like cabinet resonance, or pronouncing one area of the audio band over another. Anyway, it made me realize how happy I am with the Phils. Thanks Dennis.

Woohoo! 3 days later...and I have read this thread from start to finish. I have emailed Dennis no less than 241 times with questions that get answered later in the thread...sometimes as little as a page or two later.

He has answered every "less than intelligent" question I asked. Dennis has also admonished me of my diminishing returns and kept my budget on track...at the cost of his own wallet.

Some of you all have answered questions for me...that, as I read through the thread, I have seen answered before...without ever telling me "Are you special or something...do a search or read the thread!"

So thanks to Dennis and everyone here. I am sure I will have some more questions especially after my speakers get here (no hurry at all Dennis). I am still working on figuring out my surround speakers...and am 90% comfortable with my sub decisions (if only my budget was more).

My first pair of good speakers...ever...

A short personal story...that I have alluded to during my emails to Dennis:

As things will happen in life...it has not been easy for my family over the last couple years. For xmas we managed to get a nice new TV after our old one died (dipped into savings). I spent several weeks tweaking my 4 year old $500 dollar surround sound system (including speakers, sub and reciever). I just couldn't make it sound even decent.

One night late... I popped in a CD I have not heard in a LONG time...and my wife sat down next to me and she started to cry...because she loved the song and it was so long since she heard it. It was also just a good release leaver to all the pressure and doubt in our life. We spent the next 4 hours...till 2 am listening to music together.

It was then I decided that if music made that much differance...even if only for a couple hours once a month..it was worth the price even though we have no budget for it. Thus, my four month search for a little release, a little close time and a little happiness in our sometimes over stressed chaotic life.


Thanks again everyone and especially Dennis.

Newbie, that is one the best posts I've read on any forum.
You know what?
Getting misty-eyed listening to music isn't just for girls.
I've teared-up listening to music both live and recorded and I'm not afraid to admit it.
Isn't that really what this hobby is all about?
The pure emotion that music evokes in us?

It's so easy to get caught up in all the minutia and esoterics of x-overs, cabinet resonance, cables, s/n ratio, blah, blah, blah.

It can be Bert Jansch, Jefferson Airplane, side 2 of Abbey Road or Simon Standage playing the final allegro from the Brandenburg no. 3.
It's ALL good.

I concur with Milt99 and want to thank Dennis for bringing so many into this hobby at such a high level. The more people who appreciate HiFi the better for us all.

Newbie01 - congrats on your upcoming speakers! No pressure on Dennis to get them done, I'm sure. That is fantastic.
Edited by jima4a - 2/20/13 at 7:06pm

I follow the Kef and B&W threads because I own those brands. I follow the Revel thread because I had Studio2s for home audition and think they're amazing. I follow this thread because of the genuine passion for music showed by those involved, simple as that.

Have you ever been asked "Do you actually just sit and listen to music?"
Edited by jima4a - 2/21/13 at 3:36am