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Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 126

post #3751 of 4138
3/13/13 at 9:23pm
Sheesh, want me to call your mom and walk her through setting them up? Seems a pity, at least she could be "breaking them in" for you! biggrin.gif

Congrats to the new owners. B-stock Philharmonics are better than most A-stock speakers. Newbie, line up 3 or 4 helpers, those puppies are heavy!
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post #3752 of 4138
3/14/13 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post

I couldn't be happier with my "problematic B-Stock." wink.gif The one cabinet with a minor blemish is definitely not noticeable, and they sound fantastic. I also have a couple extra bucks in my pocket. tongue.gif

You lawyers always have a couple extra bucks in your pokets. But I'm glad the Phil's worked out. I was really scrapping the bottom of the old cabinet barrel for those.
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post #3753 of 4138
3/14/13 at 7:32am
How much are a pair of the Phil 2's? Thanks!
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post #3754 of 4138
3/14/13 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

How much are a pair of the Phil 2's? Thanks!

$3,100/pair. They're definitely worth it. I stayed up real late comparing the 2s to some Gallos and EMPs, and boy do these sound amazing. The increased bass unfortunately kept waking the lady. She went to bed liking the speakers and woke up with a grudge against them. eek.gif Too late, I'm not sending these puppies back.

http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic2.html
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post #3755 of 4138
3/14/13 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post

$3,100/pair. They're definitely worth it. I stayed up real late comparing the 2s to some Gallos and EMPs, and boy do these sound amazing. The increased bass unfortunately kept waking the lady. She went to bed liking the speakers and woke up with a grudge against them. eek.gif Too late, I'm not sending these puppies back.

http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic2.html

Actually, you can get them for $2900/pr if you opt for the original cabinet style. All of the cabinets are custom made with your choice of standard veneers or upgraded premium veneers, but the original cabinet is perfectly vertical at the front, and the edges have standard 3/4" roundover. The newer style $(3100) has a slightly raked back front and a 1.5" chamfer on the sides. There are slight adjustments in the crossover to compensate for differing diffraction effects. Both cabinets are a little larger than the version VicTorious has, and bass response runs a couple of dB lower. The Phil 3 comes in the same cabinets, but substitutes the ScanSpeak 8" revelator for the SB Acoustics 8" driver in the 2's. The difference in price is $400, which is all due to the relative cost of the woofers.
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post #3756 of 4138
3/14/13 at 1:56pm
If these monitors look familiar, it's because they use the same cabinet and woofer found in the ACI Sapphire, a popular Internet Direct speaker that is no longer available. The original Sapphire, which sold for about $1,000/pr, featured
a very high quality Focal kevlar 6.5" woofer, and a Focal inverted dome titanium tweeter that suffered from some harshness at the top end. I acquired cabinets identical to those used in the Sapphire and new Focal woofers several years ago, and
finally got around to choosing an appropriate tweeter and designing a crossover. I selected a 1" Vifa ring radiator tweeter that has proven very popular in the DIY community, and that performed extremely well in tests conducted by
an independent and higly respected on-line site (Zaph Audio). Zaph had this to say about the Vifa: "Smoothest and most extended response curve in the group, and resulting CSD (waterfall plot) is excellent." The cabinets are natural ash (I think), which I finished with several coats of Danish oil. The front baffle is 1.5" thick, and the cabinet provides "aperiodic" loading to the woofer via two small holes in the rear that are stuffed with fill. This design flattens the woofer's impedance peak, and allows a smaller cabinet size than would otherwise be required. The resulting bass is very tight and clean, but not particularly deep. The overall sound is very smooth and airy. These would be great in an office, or in any application with a sub. Measurements are available on
request. These are ready to go with grills and are available for $450/pr plus shipping. If interested, e-mail Dennis at info@Philharmonicaudio.com

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post #3757 of 4138
3/14/13 at 2:50pm
How big are those cabinets (LWH)? Thanks!
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post #3758 of 4138
3/14/13 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

How big are those cabinets (LWH)? Thanks!

They're 5.25" deep at the top, and 10" deep at the bottom. W= 10" H = 17"
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post #3759 of 4138
3/14/13 at 3:21pm
Thank you! Are they sealed speakers or ported? I am guessing sealed.
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post #3760 of 4138
3/14/13 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfD View Post

Thank you! Are they sealed speakers or ported? I am guessing sealed.

The bass loading is described in the post. It's aperiodic--two tiny holes stuffed with fill that aren't really resonant ports--just a method of reducing the woofer impedance peak. Essentially, it's sealed.
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post #3761 of 4138
3/14/13 at 10:03pm
Dennis...don't want to put you in a difficult position... If you had to compare these to the PhilMonitors...how do they compare?

I saw the Zaph Audio reference but it seemed to say that ribbon tweeters over all blow...include the Fundtek 2.0... (They didn't test the RAAL though...) And that the Vifa tweeter beat all the ribbons out...
Edited by Newbie01 - 3/14/13 at 10:43pm
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post #3762 of 4138
3/14/13 at 10:17pm
Well my Phil 2's arrived today. Getting them out of the boxes was a little work out. Denis shipped them yesterday and they got here today... smile.gif We don't live that far from each other..about 150 miles.

Popped in a few CD's and listened to them. Various music from pop, classical to jazz.

Just as a reminder I bought these absolutely blind..never heard them before (A HUGE no-no)

I still need to do some adjustments and get a better feel for them but my first impression...

HOLY CRAP!!##! These things are the best thing I have ever heard.....ever. I listened to the 20k-100k speakers before. I know its almost a cliche but holy crap batman...these things are good!

I will give a full review in a few weeks but honestly... They surpassed my expectations and then some. Amazing! Simply amazing. Dennis thank you so much...

Absolutely unbelievable. They are so clear. The sound stage is amazing. (I think I used the word Amazing once or twice already.) They defy the laws of the universe...in that they are both neutral but have an energy about them that adds to the music and makes it alive.

Imaging is pin point precise... Bass...deep and agile. Perfect without getting muddy...ever. Just beyond words.
Edited by Newbie01 - 3/14/13 at 10:47pm
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post #3763 of 4138
3/14/13 at 10:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I listened to 20-40k speakers before

Which ones? If were talking Zu, Wilson, Bose xD, etc it doesn't count. tongue.gif
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post #3764 of 4138
3/14/13 at 10:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Which ones? If were talking Zu, Wilson, Bose xD, etc it doesn't count. tongue.gif

Lol..yeah Wilson, B & W as well as Sonus Faber. The Wilson were I think 120k but selling at discount for 85k. The B&W were cheap at 24k and Sonus Faber were only 55k.

When I say that the Phil 2's beat these speaekers... I don't mean by a little bit...I mean by ALLOT. Now I am not A/B comparing these, but nothing came close to how "clean" these are...how detailed and precise yet..lively these speakers are.

Did I say Amazing?
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post #3765 of 4138
3/14/13 at 10:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Lol..yeah Wilson, B & W as well as Sonus Faber. The Wilson were I think 120k but selling at discount for 85k. The B&W were cheap at 24k and Sonus Faber were only 55k.

Yeah, just as I thought, Crap. lol The B&W are alright, some good engineering and some not so good engineering, IMO. The others have never impressed me audibly or by design.
Quote:
When I say that the Phil 2's beat these speakers... I don't mean by a little bit...I mean by ALLOT. Now I am not A/B comparing these, but nothing came close to how "clean" these are...how detailed and precise yet..lively these speakers are.

The Phils are much more neutral than the others you heard! Definite improvement, IMO.
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post #3766 of 4138
3/15/13 at 5:15am
I was all sold on a pair of Sonus Faber Verene at 3.5k but that was just too far out of budget for me... I was struggling to still pull the trigger (I really liked them) but cost and the fact they had a very wimpy center made me double think it.

Back to the boards and research... Dennis answered a post of mine and the rest is history...

Honest to a fault...I couldn't but trust Dennis. The Sonus Faber had a great sound stage but now I can see it's mid range is very warm and the high end isn't clear like the Phils...much more boomy bass as well.

Lol..ok enough I will save all that for my review.

Just amazing speakers...outstanding...amazing (again with the amazing).
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post #3767 of 4138
3/15/13 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Well my Phil 2's arrived today. Getting them out of the boxes was a little work out. Denis shipped them yesterday and they got here today... smile.gif We don't live that far from each other..about 150 miles.

Popped in a few CD's and listened to them. Various music from pop, classical to jazz.

Just as a reminder I bought these absolutely blind..never heard them before (A HUGE no-no)

I still need to do some adjustments and get a better feel for them but my first impression...

HOLY CRAP!!##! These things are the best thing I have ever heard.....ever. I listened to the 20k-100k speakers before. I know its almost a cliche but holy crap batman...these things are good!

I will give a full review in a few weeks but honestly... They surpassed my expectations and then some. Amazing! Simply amazing. Dennis thank you so much...

Absolutely unbelievable. They are so clear. The sound stage is amazing. (I think I used the word Amazing once or twice already.) They defy the laws of the universe...in that they are both neutral but have an energy about them that adds to the music and makes it alive.

Imaging is pin point precise... Bass...deep and agile. Perfect without getting muddy...ever. Just beyond words.

So nice to read this. Congrats Newbie!
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post #3768 of 4138
3/15/13 at 7:39am
I feel your excitement, newbie. These things sound great, and they sound even better knowing that our speakers are the last of two pairs of a kind. I watched a movie with the Phil 2s yesterday, and boy are they dynamic.
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post #3769 of 4138
3/15/13 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Dennis...don't want to put you in a difficult position... If you had to compare these to the PhilMonitors...how do they compare?

I saw the Zaph Audio reference but it seemed to say that ribbon tweeters over all blow...include the Fundtek 2.0... (They didn't test the RAAL though...) And that the Vifa tweeter beat all the ribbons out...

Generally other DIY speaker builders consider Zaph's measurements as an excellent reference. If I recall, his measurements of tweeter harmonic distortion are made without taking a crossover into account. As a result, some tweeters, including most ribbons, produce significant harmonic distortion when fed signals at low enough frequencies. If a speaker design uses a ribbon tweeter where the crossover rolls it in at frequencies higher than those, the distortion Zaph measures cannot occur.

This is why you rarely see ribbon tweeters in good 2-way designs. I think ribbon tweeter is still a relatively new technology compared to dome tweeters, and we will see more ribbons capable of operating at lower frequencies without distortion in the future.

Dennis – please correct me if I'm wrong or have oversimplified.

Richard
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post #3770 of 4138
3/15/13 at 8:02am
We must also remember that we are more sensitive to linear distortion, yet Zaph makes HD out to be the end-all-be-all. If HD were as important an Zaph thinks it is, everyone would swear by it.

Also, ribbion tweeters tend to be very unhappy playing low frequencies. It's not hard to see why. If you use them in the range they are supposed to be used they are just fine.

The radiating mass of a ribbon is just too low. They have no chance of reproducing a low frequency. They simply can't move that much air without burning out. Some can--but they are large and use larger magnet structures.

http://www.e-speakers.com/servlet/-strse-378/RAVEN-Line-Source/Detail

Look at the PE for the recommended xo....30watts. Even the Raven can't play that low....even if they want to pretend it can. 30 watts for a 2K driver...
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post #3771 of 4138
3/15/13 at 8:21am
I pretty much agree with Swerd's and Monk's comments. You absolutely do not want to cross a ribbon too low, and that's why I don't offer a 2-way with the RAAL. The Fountek's ribbon element is more robust, and can handle a 2.5 kHz cross. Ribbons do display a little more harmonic distortion across the board than a solid dome design. But it doesn't reach the point of audibility in my experience. I rely on Zaph for FR measurements and harmonic distortion readings in the deep bass. If a woofer produces 10% 2nd order harmonic distortioin at 50 Hz, you're going to hear that as a strong doubling element at 100 Hz. If a ribbon is producing 1% harmonic distortion at 10 kHz, you arent' going to hear the tiny amount of doubling at 20 kHz even if you're very young, particularly in the middle of a complex musical signal.
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post #3772 of 4138
3/15/13 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

The bass loading is described in the post. It's aperiodic--two tiny holes stuffed with fill that aren't really resonant ports--just a method of reducing the woofer impedance peak. Essentially, it's sealed.

Thanks! Yes I read that in the original post, but I wasn't so sure about what it meant exactly (I don't know enough yet). smile.gif
I presume this means that these speakers could be placed close to or against a wall without sacrificing too much sound quality.
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post #3773 of 4138
3/15/13 at 1:42pm
Right. It could go within a couple of inches.
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post #3774 of 4138
3/15/13 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

The radiating mass of a ribbon is just too low. They have no chance of reproducing a low frequency. They simply can't move that much air without burning out. Some can--but they are large and use larger magnet structures.

How about Newform Research ribbons? I have some 30" tall ones that cover 1k and up. They sound fine to me, but what would be their inherent design flaw that stops them being more widely used by the DIY community? (apart from looking odd)
Edited by kiwi2 - 3/15/13 at 1:49pm
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post #3775 of 4138
3/15/13 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post


What would be their inherent design flaw that stops them being more widely used by the DIY community? (apart from looking odd)

Ummm...well, dude they are 30". tongue.gif I'm not a huge fan of line sources, although they tend to have a very large soundstage.

I'd have to see the driver measured, but there is no inherent design flaw with ribbons. They just can't be used very low. Their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness.

You have a 30" ribbon there; if well designed, I'm sure it can handle 1khz just fine! The amount of excursion needed to reach 1khz with a 30" radiating surface is so minuscule I'm surprised the driver doesn't play at 1khz without a signal! tongue.gif
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post #3776 of 4138
3/15/13 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

You lawyers always have a couple extra bucks in your pokets. But I'm glad the Phil's worked out. I was really scrapping the bottom of the old cabinet barrel for those.

Funny...last two people to get the Chinese Phil two B stock are attorney's... It made me chuckle at least.
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post #3777 of 4138
3/15/13 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Funny...last two people to get the Chinese Phil two B stock are attorney's... It made me chuckle at least.

In an effort to learn from others, I will now be charging for advice. wink.gif

I require 20% of the cost of whatever speaker you chose as a result of knowledge you gained from my posts. biggrin.gif
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post #3778 of 4138
3/15/13 at 5:47pm
^^ Good luck with that little buddy! wink.gif
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post #3779 of 4138
3/15/13 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post

If these monitors look familiar, it's because they use the same cabinet and woofer found in the ACI Sapphire, a popular Internet Direct speaker that is no longer available. The original Sapphire, which sold for about $1,000/pr, featured
a very high quality Focal kevlar 6.5" woofer, and a Focal inverted dome titanium tweeter that suffered from some harshness at the top end. I acquired cabinets identical to those used in the Sapphire and new Focal woofers several years ago, and
finally got around to choosing an appropriate tweeter and designing a crossover. I selected a 1" Vifa ring radiator tweeter that has proven very popular in the DIY community, and that performed extremely well in tests conducted by
an independent and higly respected on-line site (Zaph Audio). Zaph had this to say about the Vifa: "Smoothest and most extended response curve in the group, and resulting CSD (waterfall plot) is excellent." The cabinets are natural ash (I think), which I finished with several coats of Danish oil. The front baffle is 1.5" thick, and the cabinet provides "aperiodic" loading to the woofer via two small holes in the rear that are stuffed with fill. This design flattens the woofer's impedance peak, and allows a smaller cabinet size than would otherwise be required. The resulting bass is very tight and clean, but not particularly deep. The overall sound is very smooth and airy. These would be great in an office, or in any application with a sub. Measurements are available on
request. These are ready to go with grills and are available for $450/pr plus shipping. If interested, e-mail Dennis at info@Philharmonicaudio.com

These remind me of the old Spice TC-50 and TC-60 from many years ago! With much upgraded drivers and crossovers, I am sure.
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post #3780 of 4138
3/15/13 at 8:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdcrox View Post

These remind me of the old Spice TC-50 and TC-60 from many years ago! With much upgraded drivers and crossovers, I am sure.

Well, I have a pair of TC-50's as well. The crossovers were actually very advanced for the day. They just didn't have very good tweeters. The Spica's were even more slanted in the front--they formed a complete right-angle tirangle from the side. That approach aligns the woofer and tweeter acouostic centers, which can simplify crossover design. But there's no advantage acoustically unless true 1st order acouostic slopes are achieved, and then the advantage (if any) will only be on axis.
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