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Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 127

post #3781 of 4611
Dennis - I thought you said that I couldn't simultaneously use the RAAL foam pads with the grill? Challenge accepted. Fits quite nicely.









post #3782 of 4611
Hmmmmmm. Well, I guess that's because the grills fit so badly. If you continue to defy me, I'll send you a plot of what the response looks like with the grills on. Uuggglllly. I'm surprised you're not getting a lot of bass boom with the cabinets right up in the corner like that. Is the other one in a similar location?
post #3783 of 4611
Ha. I don't listen to them with the grills on. Just wanted to see if they would fit.

The speakers looks closer to the corners than they actually are. Initially, when I was trying various placements, I put the Phils in the corner almost touching the front and side wall, and once I turned on some music and a movie, I had to check to see if the subwoofers were on. The speakers still have plenty of bass in their current configuration, which is 12" from the front wall to the bass cabinet, 14" from the side wall to the side of the speaker, 18" from the corner of the front wall and side wall to the corner of the bass cabinet, and 19" from the front wall to the lower-back of the top cabinet. The below panned out pictures might give you a more accurate perspective. I took a picture of the distance from the back of the bass cabinet to the front wall, but I don't want to embarrass myself by posting pics of my untidy high-end cables (monoprice 12 gauge). I've got plans to hide the cables, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.






Edited by VicTorious1 - 3/17/13 at 10:25pm
post #3784 of 4611
Which subs ya got? I called my wife over...told her "see we do need two subs!" I only have one Rythmic FV15HP.
post #3785 of 4611
Well your one Rythmik 15 might be better than my dual SVS PB-1000. I initially ordered dual PB 12s, but they wouldn't fit under my screen so I canceled them and went with these smaller subs. I put my screen at the recommended THX screen height fom my viewing position, but I'm thinking of raising my screen and getting the dual PB 12NSDs or 12 ultras. Alternatively, I might simply add another PB-1000 to this setup.
Edited by VicTorious1 - 3/16/13 at 7:37pm
post #3786 of 4611
Hey Vic,

Nice looking setup. I was wondering if you noticed any difference in the pair of Phils you have vs. the ones you heard at my place? Is the midrange any fuller and how about the bass extension?

-Mike
post #3787 of 4611
Thanks, Mike.

I do not know if it's faulty memory, post-purchase placebo effect or placement, but the midrange does sound fuller and there is definitely more bass. The increased (to my hearing at least) bass extension is primarily due to placement as I've noticed the bass was definitely louder (but somewhat boomy) when I had the Phils all the way in the corner. With my current setup, the bass is punchy and more than adequate. When listening to 2 channel music, I often leave the subs off. Based on my admittedly limited memory the Ultras were warmer throughout. I intend to write up my impressions of comparing the Phils, Gallos and EMPs at my place when I get a chance.
post #3788 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post

Thanks, Mike.

I do not know if it's faulty memory, post-purchase placebo effect or placement, but the midrange does sound fuller and there is definitely more bass. The increased (to my hearing at least) bass extension is primarily due to placement as I've noticed the bass was definitely louder (but somewhat boomy) when I had the Phils all the way in the corner. With my current setup, the bass is punchy and more than adequate. When listening to 2 channel music, I often leave the subs off. Based on my admittedly limited memory the Ultras were warmer throughout. I intend to write up my impressions of comparing the Phils, Gallos and EMPs at my place when I get a chance.


I don't recall hearing any comments about the midrange per se. The comments seemed to center on the fullness of the bass, and the presentation of the male voice ands guitar in the upper bass. Female vocals would be a better indication of midrange, since their fundamentals are concentrated in the range covered by the midrange driver.
post #3789 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I don't recall hearing any comments about the midrange per se. The comments seemed to center on the fullness of the bass, and the presentation of the male voice ands guitar in the upper bass. Female vocals would be a better indication of midrange, since their fundamentals are concentrated in the range covered by the midrange driver.

You're correct, Dennis. I believe we are referring to upper and lower bass. The female vocals are just as I recall them: simply fantastic. The bass (upper and lower), which I thought was more than adequate at the Denver GTG, is what seems like it is improved from my memory. For whatever that's worth. I generally try not to make conclusions on speakers based on memory as I've seen how poor humans are at remembering impressions left on their senses (especially visual and auditory).
post #3790 of 4611
I am noticing some potential power problems... It takes allot of volume to get my Phil's to a decent listening level. THX I am at 18-20. Is this normal for most people?
post #3791 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I don't recall hearing any comments about the midrange per se. The comments seemed to center on the fullness of the bass, and the presentation of the male voice ands guitar in the upper bass. Female vocals would be a better indication of midrange, since their fundamentals are concentrated in the range covered by the midrange driver.

Just a note...

This was the subject of an earlier comment I made regarding that comparo. It's why I asked about the listeners' musical preference. Rock afficionados tend to ignore the mids with preference for and focus on strong bass and zinging highs. This proved to be the major selling point of earlier rocker speakers such as the Advent Large, Klipsch, and Cerwin Vega speakers. I don't think there's anything wrong with that...it's just personal preference.

Here is another earlier quote that is salient to another point of view....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

The mids are as clean as any I’ve heard. I recall someone else on this thread, or perhaps over on Audioholics, saying that the BG NEO-8 driver is the secret weapon of the Phils. [snip...RAALs aside] I whole-heartedly agree. The Accutons are dynamite mid drivers, but don’t underestimate the performance of the NEO.

PS: Vic, your setup looks great!!
post #3792 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I don't recall hearing any comments about the midrange per se. The comments seemed to center on the fullness of the bass, and the presentation of the male voice ands guitar in the upper bass. Female vocals would be a better indication of midrange, since their fundamentals are concentrated in the range covered by the midrange driver.
Male vocals (nominally) have fundamentals from 100Hz to 900Hz, with harmonics from 700Hz to 8000Hz.

Now I don't recall your set crossover points: but I'm pretty sure we are entirely through the midrange and into the tweeters before we get to 8000Hz

As to female vocals: the fundamentals are from 250Hz to just over 1000Hz. I really doubt that the last 100Hz is a make-or-break issue for the midrange. As for the Harmonics: they end at the exact same 8000Hz.

More to the point: I can drop the volume and cup my ear around individual drivers and hear voices out of all three drivers.

Heck: I have an active 4-way here with a crossover to the tweeter around 6000 hz (IIRC: I am pretty ill and don't want to go look) and I can hear (parts of) voices when only the tweeters are on.

Voices cover a lot more frequencies than you are giving them credit for.
post #3793 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

Male vocals (nominally) have fundamentals from 100Hz to 900Hz, with harmonics from 700Hz to 8000Hz.

Now I don't recall your set crossover points: but I'm pretty sure we are entirely through the midrange and into the tweeters before we get to 8000Hz

As to female vocals: the fundamentals are from 250Hz to just over 1000Hz. I really doubt that the last 100Hz is a make-or-break issue for the midrange. As for the Harmonics: they end at the exact same 8000Hz.

More to the point: I can drop the volume and cup my ear around individual drivers and hear voices out of all three drivers.

Heck: I have an active 4-way here with a crossover to the tweeter around 6000 hz (IIRC: I am pretty ill and don't want to go look) and I can hear (parts of) voices when only the tweeters are on.

Voices cover a lot more frequencies than you are giving them credit for.

That's the danger in just quoting ranges, rather than central tendencies. An operatic tenor may be able to hit 1000 Hz, but not you and me. Concert A is 440 Hz. That's really high for most male voices. Baritones, of which God made many, are straining to sustain an E below concert A. For all intents and purposes, if you hear a guy singing, his fundamental will be below the crossover point on the Phil's. Obviously there are overtones above that, and they will determine the purity, accuracy, and intelligibility of the voice reproduction. (I have a recent post in the Salk thread that stresses the importance of overtones in voice reproduction). But the "body" and weight of the voice, which is what was at issue in Denver, will be mainly a function of the fundamental.
post #3794 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

That's the danger in just quoting ranges, rather than central tendencies. An operatic tenor may be able to hit 1000 Hz, but not you and me. Concert A is 440 Hz. That's really high for most male voices

Agreed. That's why I didn't just quote ranges. I also described practical experimentation with audio sources I actually listen to.

I can drop the volume and cup my ear around individual drivers and hear voices out of all three drivers.

Heck: I have an active 4-way here with a crossover to the tweeter around 6000 hz (IIRC: I am pretty ill and don't want to go look) and I can hear (parts of) voices when only the tweeters are on.

And the number isn't "1000 Hz", it's "8000 Hz". We are not just discussing the primary tone, but also the harmonics.
post #3795 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I am noticing some potential power problems... It takes allot of volume to get my Phil's to a decent listening level. THX I am at 18-20. Is this normal for most people?

What are you using to power your Phils?
post #3796 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post


PS: Vic, your setup looks great!!

Thanks. Now I only have to decide whether I want to put these two SVS PB-1000s in the back of my room and get two bigger subs for upfront and raise my screen.
post #3797 of 4611
Just for fun: I installed "TrueRTA" and sang into my (headset, so crudy) mike.

Here's a pic baseline and with me singing so you can ignore noise




As you can see: my voice (not terribly high, I'm a bass) does a good deal in the 5khz-10khz range.

Indeed: the *loudest* sounds from my voice are between 2khz and 5khz.

The bottom 2-3 bars tend to flutter on their own, regardless of me singing; so I would not trust the <100Hz values presented.
Edited by JerryLove - 3/17/13 at 5:55pm
post #3798 of 4611
Well, you're generating one heck of a lot of harmonics. I'm not quite sure what to make of that, since harmonics rapidly diminish in magnitude. But again, the stuff up there isn't contributing to the weight of the sound. I'm pretty sure what people preferred on each speaker in Denver was a function of the woofers, not midrange.
post #3799 of 4611
I have an Onkyo 818 -- 135 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz)... I am playing my speakers in stereo mode when listening to music too...so only 2.1
post #3800 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I have an Onkyo 818 -- 135 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz)... I am playing my speakers in stereo mode when listening to music too...so only 2.1

Well, if it's honestly rated, and most stereo specs are pretty reliable, then you should no problem driving the Phil's to ear shattering levels. My amp is only 120 watts, and I never get the volume past 11:00. If it's taking a lot more than that, then maybe the output from your CD player is much lower than mine, or you have some wires touching, or the Onkyo just doesn't do well with 4 ohm loads. But I doubt that the latter is the case.
post #3801 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Well, you're generating one heck of a lot of harmonics. I'm not quite sure what to make of that, since harmonics rapidly diminish in magnitude. But again, the stuff up there isn't contributing to the weight of the sound. I'm pretty sure what people preferred on each speaker in Denver was a function of the woofers, not midrange.

I agree with this assessment. When looking at my Denver GTG review, I mentioned differences between the mid low to low frequencies.
post #3802 of 4611
Phil 2's are near as makes no difference 88db sensitive, and Phil 3's are 85.

Their impedance curves hover around 4ohm. Your amp is not specced for a sustained 4ohm, and the raitings for 6ohm are built around the more powerful Asian version. So we don't really know what the amp can offer. Let's assume 100wpc to be safe.

At that power, you could sustain 108db and 105db respectively assuming you are sitting 3ft from your speakers.

If you are 12ft, you lose 6db-12db to distance (depending on the room).

So in a poor-case scenerio: you are maxing at 93db sustained. Even if we assume the amp could put out 200w, that only brings you +3db.
I think a more likely "proper use" scenario would be 6ft, and 3db loss so 105 and 102.

I'm not sure what the max power handling of these speakers is.
post #3803 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post

Thanks. Now I only have to decide whether I want to put these two SVS PB-1000s in the back of my room and get two bigger subs for upfront and raise my screen.

Of course you do Vic!... just do it, you already have the phils for music, now let's finish it properly for movies! smile.gif
post #3804 of 4611
You sure about it not being speced for 4 ohms? It was one of the reasons I got it... I can switch it to 4 ohms in the settings? I never heard anyone else having problems driving Phil twos with a normal receiver vs seperates etc and the 818 isnt exactly bottom of the rung.

So was asking anyone else if they had problmes driving them with just a mid to upper mid tier receiver?
post #3805 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

You sure about it not being speced for 4 ohms? It was one of the reasons I got it... I can switch it to 4 ohms in the settings? I never heard anyone else having problems driving Phil twos with a normal receiver vs seperates etc and the 818 isnt exactly bottom of the rung.

Here's the manual (http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/manuals/pdf/tx-nr818_manual_e.pdf) Page 111.

4 ohm is only mentioned under the "dynamic power" section.

This doesn't mean the AVR won't run 4ohm speakers... it means we don't know how much wattage it can give 4ohm (continuous) because they haven't rated for that.
post #3806 of 4611
I haven't had any trouble powering my Phil2s when hooked up either directly to my Marantz SR6007 (which is rated @ 110w into 8 ohms; no available 4 ohm rating) or through my XPA-3. I decided to test it out and cranked it up to 75 (I'll try it again with volume setting on db metric) and it was very loud.
post #3807 of 4611
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR818&class=Receiver&p=s

Dynamic Power

300 W (3 ohms, 1 ch)
250 W (4 ohms, 1 ch)
150 W (8 ohms, 1 ch)
post #3808 of 4611
Don't switch it to the 4 ohm setting. That actually reduces the power. It's a safety setting to satisfy regulations.

Leave it on 8 ohm. You should have plenty of power.
post #3809 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR818&class=Receiver&p=s

Dynamic Power

300 W (3 ohms, 1 ch)
250 W (4 ohms, 1 ch)
150 W (8 ohms, 1 ch)

Keyword there is "dynamic". That is not RMS. I mentioned that in my previous post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

Don't switch it to the 4 ohm setting. That actually reduces the power. It's a safety setting to satisfy regulations.

Safety is bad?

I don't think that AVR *has* a 4-ohm setting.

Again: I'm not saying it won't power the speaker. It obviously *does* power the speakers. I'm merely saying I don't know what wattage is available RMS @4ohm from that amp. In theory it could be as high as 270W. More likely it's somewhere between 100 and 150.
post #3810 of 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I can switch it to 4 ohms in the settings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

Don't switch it to the 4 ohm setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

I don't think that AVR *has* a 4-ohm setting.

So does it or does it not have a 4 ohm setting? I couldn't tell by skimming the manual (no pdf search function on my iPad). It doesn't appear to have a 4 ohm RMS rating.
Edited by VicTorious1 - 3/18/13 at 6:58am
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