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craig john's theater - Page 9

post #241 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Looks good. I will give that whirl. My "bubble" is a tad larger than that. See below

You're using Pro, right? With Pro, you can do so many more positions. Looks like you're using 13 now. You could probably keep your current mic grouping and just add a few extra in close proximity to the main LP.
post #242 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Hi Frank,
Thanks for asking. As a matter of fact, I re-ran Audyssey XT32 yesterday using a new mic pattern. There was some discussion a while back on the Audyssey thread about using a mic pattern that prioritizes the primary LP, as opposed to the old mic pattern that defined a "bubble" around the LP. Several members have used this new mic pattern with good results. I've been wanting to try it for a while, and the opportunity presented itself yesterday afternoon.
Here is my old mic pattern spread out over the 3 primary seats:

Here is the new mic pattern emphasizing the primary LP:

t

I'm definitely going to need to try this as well. With only 3 seats (w/ 90% Brolic-only usage rate), this would most certainly beneficial.
post #243 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

I'm definitely going to need to try this as well. With only 3 seats (w/ 90% Brolic-only usage rate), this would most certainly beneficial.

I've tried it and it works well smile.gif I did 16 pos with my new chairs and 6 were dedicated to my chair
post #244 of 356
As Craig said we were pretty close to that for me but I forget how may we did for me. I know that the majority were for my main chair biggrin.gif.
post #245 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

As Craig said we were pretty close to that for me but I forget how may we did for me. I know that the majority were for my main chair biggrin.gif.
We did the maximum number of mic positions, which for XT32 is 8. Your "acoustic bubble" was pretty tight.

Craig
post #246 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

We did the maximum number of mic positions, which for XT32 is 8. Your "acoustic bubble" was pretty tight.
Craig
Thanks Craig for the reminder. I know XT32 is really good and improvement over the last version. Since 8 was enough for me, and you seemed to have done very well with 8, is there any benefit to the pro version? I guess for people with much bigger rooms or with more places to sit? I know it is supposed to be more "sensitive" then the standard XT32 though. But what is the reason to use a pro cal. I guess if you have some really funky audio stuff it can be useful but is that about it?
post #247 of 356

craig john,

 

Do you have a full range freq plot for you room rather than just the sub?  And do you run 100hz crossover on all speakers?

 

Thanks

post #248 of 356
craig john,

Just found this thread and subscribed. Back in the fall when I was traveling (and purchasing my 3rd SVS cylinder), I spent a motel evening reading the excellent write-ups (level matching, sub-distance settings, etc..) that you and Mr Seaton had put together.
That is some great material - Thank You!

I now need to revisit those articles because I am about to bring the 3rd sub-woofer on-line.
If I recall correctly; you were also running 3 subs, but at one time I believe you were "EQ-ing" them as a single group?
On page 8 of this thread it appears that you may now be using 2 separate; sub EQ settings?
post #249 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

craig john,

Do you have a full range freq plot for you room rather than just the sub?  And do you run 100hz crossover on all speakers?

Thanks

Hi PTG,

The first post has a full range RTA. Also, in Post #219, I posted this measurement:




Yes, I do, (currently), run a 100Hz crossover on all the speakers. Also the LPF of LFE is set to 100 Hz. I've tried multiple different crossovers, from 60 to 100. his 100 Hz crossover for all speakers seems like the best for maximum system headroom, and lack of sub localization.
post #250 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

craig john,
Just found this thread and subscribed. Back in the fall when I was traveling (and purchasing my 3rd SVS cylinder), I spent a motel evening reading the excellent write-ups (level matching, sub-distance settings, etc..) that you and Mr Seaton had put together.
That is some great material - Thank You!
I now need to revisit those articles because I am about to bring the 3rd sub-woofer on-line.
If I recall correctly; you were also running 3 subs, but at one time I believe you were "EQ-ing" them as a single group?
On page 8 of this thread it appears that you may now be using 2 separate; sub EQ settings?
Hi cuzed2,

I was, at one point, running all three subs off one subwoofer output. They were gain-matched and placed randomly around the room. I posted all that here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/4500#post_19446901

After some discussions with other members, I decided to try one sub on one output and the other 2 subs on the second output, I moved the 2 subs so they were the same distance from the LP and further away than the 1 sub. After running Audyssey, manipulating the subwoofer distances and levels, the differences between the 2 setups were trivial/insignificant. I left it with the "split" setup, but only because it would have been a lot of work to re-route the cables to go back to the "triplet" setup.

One note: with the "split" setup, I ended up with different level settings for output1 and output2. This effectively results in a level-matched situation, and to get back to gain-matched, I split-the-difference on the level settings. IIRC, they were set at -11 for the dual subs and -6 for the single sub. I reset them both to -8.5 to get them to the same levels. This had virtually no impact on the FR.

If you run into any issues with your new setup, let me know. I'll try to help. Good luck with it. smile.gif

Craig
post #251 of 356
Craig J

Thanks for the explanation. One thing I could use: a refresher on difference between gain matching and level matching?

It's been awhile...

Thanks!
post #252 of 356
Thread Starter 
post #253 of 356
Thanks!
Just gave it a read and realized (DUH), that I had my terms mixed up. Gain matching is what I previously read, and it is indeed very logical.

My setup consists of an older Marantz 7002 If I recall; it has only Muti EQ capability.
I am using the preamp outs to a Marantz MM9000 amp.
I have my receiver X/O set at 100Hz (to allow my multiple location subs to help with a null that is near 100Hz at the seating position).

My LFE arrangement:
The receiver LFE out is going to a Velodyne SMS1, the SMS has 3 "outputs" (although I believe a common output circuit)
2 "outputs" drive two SVS 16-46+ cylinders (stock 16Hz tune) that are located near the L/R front corners of my HT and equidistant (7') from my primary LP
The 3rd SMS "output" goes to a QSC RMX850 amp that is pushing a SVS 20-39 cylinder (matching 12.3 driver, one port plugged for 16Hz) This is centered on the back wall, about 6' from the LP.

When I bring these out -by-one to set the gains, my plan will be as follows:
1) Will initially turn up the volume on my receiver setup, to set a reference of 75 db from my front left channel (on a rat shack meter)
2) I will then set my Velodyne gain to 3 (out of of 1 thru 6 settings), and will set my receiver to output subwoofer pink noise
3) I will start by moving the 20-39 rear passive sub to the test postion and will run the QSC gain up until I produce 75db of subwoofer pink noise
4) I will then repeat step #3 with each individual 16-46+ cylinder.

5) then when finished; will move all subs back to their home position and run sub-woofer pink noise again. I suspect I will be needing to turn the Velodyne gain back down, to get back down to 75db at the LP when all the subs are on-line

Hope that made sense?
post #254 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Thanks!
Just gave it a read and realized (DUH), that I had my terms mixed up. Gain matching is what I previously read, and it is indeed very logical.
My setup consists of an older Marantz 7002 If I recall; it has only Muti EQ capability.
I am using the preamp outs to a Marantz MM9000 amp.
I have my receiver X/O set at 100Hz (to allow my multiple location subs to help with a null that is near 100Hz at the seating position).
My LFE arrangement:
The receiver LFE out is going to a Velodyne SMS1, the SMS has 3 "outputs" (although I believe a common output circuit)
2 "outputs" drive two SVS 16-46+ cylinders (stock 16Hz tune) that are located near the L/R front corners of my HT and equidistant (7') from my primary LP
The 3rd SMS "output" goes to a QSC RMX850 amp that is pushing a SVS 20-39 cylinder (matching 12.3 driver, one port plugged for 16Hz) This is centered on the back wall, about 6' from the LP.
When I bring these out -by-one to set the gains, my plan will be as follows:
1) Will initially turn up the volume on my receiver setup, to set a reference of 75 db from my front left channel (on a rat shack meter)
2) I will then set my Velodyne gain to 3 (out of of 1 thru 6 settings), and will set my receiver to output subwoofer pink noise
3) I will start by moving the 20-39 rear passive sub to the test postion and will run the QSC gain up until I produce 75db of subwoofer pink noise
4) I will then repeat step #3 with each individual 16-46+ cylinder.
5) then when finished; will move all subs back to their home position and run sub-woofer pink noise again. I suspect I will be needing to turn the Velodyne gain back down, to get back down to 75db at the LP when all the subs are on-line
Hope that made sense?
The only thing I don't understand is the bolded part. The SMS-1's volume control is set up for "unity gain", (volume input = volume output with no EQ engaged), with a setting of 15. It's range is far higher than 1 thru 6.

Also, gain-matching is really most appropriate for identical subs. Your results with dissimilar subs may not be ideal with gain-matching. It will depend on how dissimilar the 20-39 is from the 16-46. I don't know enough about SVS subs to comment on that. Maybe ask in the SVS thread?

Finally, that "null" at 100 Hz, which is also your crossover frequency, may actually be an incorrect setting of the subwoofer Distance in the receiver. I find that Audyssey often gets this setting wrong, especially in multi-sub systems, and the result is a recession around the crossover frequency. Use the FR graph of the SMS-1 to view the response while adding some distance to the subwoofer Distance setting and see if that doesn't correct the "null." It has worked for me in a number of multi-sub systems. (BTW, the "correct" subwoofer distance is usually not the physical distance as measured with a tape measure. The correct subwoofer Distance takes into account the latency involved in the subwoofer amp, (any phase control or EQ/crossover in the sub amp will add latency. Also, in your system, the SMS-1 will add some latency. This will cause the signal to be delayed a few milliseconds. Prolonging the subwoofer Distance setting causes the subwoofer to "fire" first and allows the signal to "catch up" to the signals from the speakers. In this way, all the signals from all the speakers and sub(s) arrive at the same time at the listening position. This means they are all in-phase. If they arrive at different times, they will be out-of-phase and you'll get the aforementioned cancellation/null.

Craig
post #255 of 356
Craig J,

Thanks for responding!
Oops - It is clear I need to revisit the gain portion of my SVS manual before I do any further tweaking.

As for the SVS situation:
I have spoken with one of the key SVS reps (Ed Mullen) on matching these units. With SVS' advice; I have upgraded a driver to make sure all units have matching 12.3 drivers, and with minimal port plugging, I now have "matching16Hz tunes". It has been suggested; that aside from drive levels I will be very close.

As for my null:
I have indeed had several sessions of using the SMS FR graph to monitor response while varying the receiver subwoofer distance. The first time I tried varying the distance while leaving the X/O set to 80 Hz > only a slight improvement. (this despite varying the distance up and down considerably).
Next up; I increased the X/O to 100 Hz and then tried a similar change in +/- distance settings. I was now able to reduce the null (with 80db as a reference - the null was improved from a 7db dip to about a 5 db dip. Cranking in some boost on the SMS reduced the dip to about 3~4db. I am getting the feeling that my favored seating position is in a null?

Of course: there is also the possibility I am doing something wrong smile.gif
post #256 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Yes, I do, (currently), run a 100Hz crossover on all the speakers. Also the LPF of LFE is set to 100 Hz. I've tried multiple different crossovers, from 60 to 100. his 100 Hz crossover for all speakers seems like the best for maximum system headroom, and lack of sub localization.

Interesting! What is the "advertised" low end response of your Triad mains?
post #257 of 356
Craig:

With all this subwoofer and mains power, does your projector vibrate at all when the decibel level is high? If not, how have you mounted it to ensure stability? Thanks
post #258 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Interesting! What is the "advertised" low end response of your Triad mains?
60 Hz. Even though they have dual 10" woofers, they're "LCR" speakers, so they're designed to be used with subs. Triad picked up 3 dB of sensitivity by tuning them to 60 Hz. With respect to LF design, they are similar to the Catalysts you have.

Craig
post #259 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Craig:
With all this subwoofer and mains power, does your projector vibrate at all when the decibel level is high? If not, how have you mounted it to ensure stability? Thanks
I use a Chief RPA mount. http://www.chiefmfg.com/Series/RPA It's mounted through the dropped ceiling to the joists overhead. I needed an additional 4" of "drop" to get the projector to the right height. I got a piece of pipe threaded on both ends from Home Depot for about $4. It's as solid as a rock.

How is your HT coming along? Do you have the 8200's installed yet?

Craig
post #260 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I use a Chief RPA mount. http://www.chiefmfg.com/Series/RPA It's mounted through the dropped ceiling to the joists overhead. I needed an additional 4" of "drop" to get the projector to the right height. I got a piece of pipe threaded on both ends from Home Depot for about $4. It's as solid as a rock.
How is your HT coming along? Do you have the 8200's installed yet?
Craig

Thanks. I screwed a 2x10 to the joists through my double drywall resilient channel ceiling, so I should be able to get stability. I got concerned because i installed the AT in-wall 8e Subs and tested them at reference volume and I could hear an HVAC register vibrating at the back of the room. The were shaking the walls!

My theater is now close to completion - needs carpet, screen, chairs and projector mount. I have everything wired, and the room is now acoustically treated with bass traps, riser and stage. Have not installed the 8200s yet. Would love to have you come over and take a look when it is all ready!
post #261 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Thanks. I screwed a 2x10 to the joists through my double drywall resilient channel ceiling, so I should be able to get stability. I got concerned because i installed the AT in-wall 8e Subs and tested them at reference volume and I could hear an HVAC register vibrating at the back of the room. The were shaking the walls!
My theater is now close to completion - needs carpet, screen, chairs and projector mount. I have everything wired, and the room is now acoustically treated with bass traps, riser and stage. Have not installed the 8200s yet. Would love to have you come over and take a look when it is all ready!
I would love to come hear/see it. smile.gif I can bring XTZ and we can see if we can get Audyssey to behave itself too! smile.gif
post #262 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I would love to come hear/see it. smile.gif I can bring XTZ and we can see if we can get Audyssey to behave itself too! smile.gif

That will be great. I put my rack in a different space (under the stairs in an unfinished space) outside the theater, but put a 3/4" PVC plumbing conduit for the Audyssey microphone. The whole place is wired for 11.x. I will have 3 subs (maybe a 4th inexpensive one). Two are the ATs in-walls, one is an older B&W 400W sub that I already had.
post #263 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

60 Hz. Even though they have dual 10" woofers, they're "LCR" speakers, so they're designed to be used with subs. Triad picked up 3 dB of sensitivity by tuning them to 60 Hz. With respect to LF design, they are similar to the Catalysts you have.
Craig

I assumed it was something like that but I was surprised that you used 100hz vs 80 (ish). As you may remember, I use Audyssey Pro and it recommends the first crossover choice as 40hz which of course I ignore so I typically use 80 which is usually way down the list of recommendations.
post #264 of 356
Craig,

Read through the entire thread today, very interesting and amazing system that you have. I was most interested in reading the comments about the Traid speakers. I was wondering if you could give your comments of the Triads compared to the Seaton Catalysts?
Thanks
post #265 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post

Craig,
Read through the entire thread today, very interesting and amazing system that you have. I was most interested in reading the comments about the Traid speakers. I was wondering if you could give your comments of the Triads compared to the Seaton Catalysts?
Thanks
Hi AltaHomeTheater,

First, thanks for reading my thread and the kind words about my system. Much appreciated. smile.gif

In terms of comparing the Cats to the Plats, I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for. They are both sealed "LCR" designs that are intended for use with subwoofers and 80 Hz crossovers. They both use large woofers, but limit their extension to about 60 Hz. They both have very high output capabilities and excellent dynamics. They both have wide horizontal dispersion with limited vertical dispersion. In all these respects they are more similar than different.

Of course, there are differences. The Cats use a compression driver tweeter mounted co-axially with the midrange; the Plat's use a silk dome tweeter mated to a very unique horn, (or "dispersion lens" as Triad calls it.) The Cats are active speakers with active crossovers, internal DSP, and amplification built-in and dedicated to each driver or driver system. The Plat's are traditional, passive designs which require external amplification, and use passive crossovers. Finally, the Cats are half the price of the Plats... and that *includes* the amplification, crossovers and DSP.

In terms of sound quality, that will have as much to do with setup and the room as it will the speakers. I've heard the Cats in an *excellent* room, very well designed and executed in terms of acoustic treatments and room correction, (audioguy's system.) In that system, the Cats sounded incredible, very dynamic, uncompressed, smooth and just plain FUN! However, in a different room, one that was not designed as a listening room, and completely untreated, the room overwhelmed the "goodness" of the speakers, and the Cats didn't come off so well in that system. If you've read my comments about the Plats, you already know what I think of the sound quality of those speakers.

I am not going to make a judgement about which of these speakers is "best." I think they're both great speakers. Some folks don't like the sound of horns; some folks don't like the sound of compression drivers, so neither of these speakers will be perfect for everyone. Certainly some will see the Cats as the "value" choice at the lower price point AND with built-in amplification, and that POV is impossible to dismiss. Others will see the additional required A to D and D to A conversion steps as added intrusions in the signal chain.

I got a great deal on a set of Triad Platinums, and I couldn't be happier. I have heard nothing that I like better than these speakers, and I have zero desire to change speakers at this point. If I did, I think I would like to hear some of the new designs using Air Motion Transformer tweeters, either the Triad Cinema Reference Line or the Legacy Audio AMT tweeter/midrange designs.

What speakers and subs are you using?

Craig
post #266 of 356
Craig,

Thanks a ton for your detailed reply. i currently have paradigm 60s in a small (11x17) dedicated HT room. The room is fairly well treated on all sides. I have read a little about Triads and a fair bit about the Cats. Not many I know of that have experience with both so was happy to read your comments. I dont remember reading anywhere that you directly compared the two.

I have no great reason to change (upgrade) but have been interested in Cats for quite some time. Also have considered Danleys. My problem is I live in Western Canada and the chance of listening to any of these is next to impossible. Also the shipping cost will be fairly high. I understand that either the Cats or the Plats will be overkill for my small room, but if I am going to change I dont want to be wondering "what-if".

There is currently a set of used Triads for sale that appear to be a good price. The used price puts them similar to new Cats. This has got me interested again. On the other hand, I think it is insane for me to spend this much without ever listening to them.

Regards
Darryl
post #267 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post

Craig,
Thanks a ton for your detailed reply. i currently have paradigm 60s in a small (11x17) dedicated HT room. The room is fairly well treated on all sides. I have read a little about Triads and a fair bit about the Cats. Not many I know of that have experience with both so was happy to read your comments. I dont remember reading anywhere that you directly compared the two.
I have no great reason to change (upgrade) but have been interested in Cats for quite some time. Also have considered Danleys. My problem is I live in Western Canada and the chance of listening to any of these is next to impossible. Also the shipping cost will be fairly high. I understand that either the Cats or the Plats will be overkill for my small room, but if I am going to change I dont want to be wondering "what-if".
Neither the Cats nor the Plats will leave you asking "What if..." especially not in an 11 x 17 dedicated HT. smile.gif

If you want to hear the Plats, contact the factory rep for Canada and ask him where the closest displaying dealer is: http://www.triadspeakers.com/howtobuy_usacanada.html#

If you want to hear the Cats, go to the Seaton Sound Forum and ask if there is anyone with Cats in your area. You never know... http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/?forum=86963
Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post

There is currently a set of used Triads for sale that appear to be a good price. The used price puts them similar to new Cats. This has got me interested again. On the other hand, I think it is insane for me to spend this much without ever listening to them.
Regards
Darryl
I had the advantage of an in-home audition of the Plats before I bought them. Having said that, it took about 5 minutes to make the decision once I heard them. smile.gif

Good luck whatever you decide. The good news is that there are no bad decisions here. smile.gif

Craig
post #268 of 356
If you consider CATs, I would suggest the CAT8's in that room. That's not a lot of space to fill. OTOH, if you want to buy for the longer term and there is any chance you will be able to move into a larger space, then go for the 12's.

I have not had the pleasure of hearing Craig's system but I have no doubt, that price notwithstanding, it is every bit the sound quality anyone could want. Having said that, either solution will require great care in applying appropriate and well placed room treatment. Without that, all bets are off. As Craig said, he heard the CATS in an untreated room (as have I) and if that had been my only experience (I already owned the Cats prior to hearing them in that space) I would never have bought them. In addition, a prepro with appropriate room eq (e.g Audyssey X32) is every bit as important as the room itself.

Have fun on your journey ! And as Craig said, this is a win-win for you smile.gif
post #269 of 356
Craig and audioguy,

I dont want to take over craigs thread but i want to thank you both for your advice and direction. Audioguy you are right that I likely only need the cat8s. If I do change, I don't want to wonder in a year "what if". There is also a significant expense to ship to northern Canada.

Thanks again
Darryl
post #270 of 356
Craig, thanks for introducing me to the Behringer NU1000DSP. The trigger has been pulled on the Behringer, along with a Crowson Transducer system for my theater. I’m going to follow your decision to utilize the Oppo’s Sub output. The only other source I’d want to use the Crowsons for—gaming—can be solved by simply connecting my systems to each of the Oppo 105’s two HDMI inputs and let the DACs do their job. You’re a genius for this solution. I’ll probably need to PM you to discuss proper delay settings on the Behringer, as that is something I know very little about.

Happy Holidays.
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