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Hearing is believing....WOW! - Page 5

post #121 of 272
7/30/11 at 4:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Test, nice Pearl 7 piece. That is quite a tilt you have on those toms!

Good on you for following your platform experiment through with REW.

Yea, actually the tilt sucks. I just haven't gotten around to fixing them. I can see me stabbing the skins any time now in their current config..lol

Test,
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post #122 of 272
7/30/11 at 4:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

well done test.

one small quibble whilst we are at it, note the different scale between your FR measurements and the waterfalls? In the FR you have linear sweep, and log in the w/fall.

All our graphs are usually log represented (the way our ears work) so there is a tab up the top right somewhere to switch to log from linear. Just better that all graphs are represented the same way.

Maybe extend the comparison graph to 200 hz, any interaction changes could be higher than 89? (which seems a weird one to pick!!)

Anyways, an 'echo' of others comments and a re-iteration of mine, well done on having a look. Very few would have. And for not throwing in the towel in getting results with measuring.

One last thing on 'doing more measurements/investigation', the operating basis is that 'if you can hear it you can measure it'. Admittedly I (at least) think that hit's real world problems (can WE measure it? Do WE need specialised equipment/knowledge/experience etc etc) but as a guiding rule it is certainly valid.

The short of that is just because you did not see much in the FR domain, does not mean there is no explaining difference elsewhere. All it means is that as yet you have not measured the right thing. (it is also NOT saying there will be a measured difference!)

FR is often a very limited tool if you will. It explains a hell of a lot tho!! so is a very good guide. But, for sake of completeness, why not check a few different measurements, if you are still curious.

One last one, having done what you have done, do you STILL hear differences?? If not, then chalk it up to your mind (our mind, we ALL do it), if you do, then maybe these extra investigations may come up trumps.

Thanks for one of the 'good story' threads, they are rare and it sure 'warms the cockles of our old jaded audio forum 'earts' it does!

Thanks Terry, I'm on vacation now so I will be spending a lot of time working on this.

I will take your advice and learn about the different parameters for graphs next time.

Test,
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post #123 of 272
7/30/11 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

Yea, actually the tilt sucks. I just haven't gotten around to fixing them. I can see me stabbing the skins any time now in their current config..lol

Test,

Yeah, it will wear 'em out quicker. I was thinking more along the lines of when a stick breaks, it is sure to fly straight back into your face! They always seem to anyway, no matter what.

Unless you use these, they don't break too easy. I like the Lars Ulrich design, nice quick stick.
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post #124 of 272
7/30/11 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbx123 View Post


Test, I've been following this thread very closely, since I was the first, back on page #1, that suspected my quote above would hold up in court, so to speak. First, this isn't any kind of "I told you so", because sincerely, it's not, and that has no value to anyone. Secondly, you've been awesome in being forthright, tenacious, open minded during this whole adventure, and I have great respect for your transparency!

If you conclude that the readings are indeed, negligible at best, the number one thing I sincerely hope you come away with here is this; that the power of the mind (self fulfillment prophecy) is an absolutely amazing phenomena that all of us are subject to experiencing in various aspects of our everyday lives. Seriously, stand back and think about how sure you were of this "very clear" improvement you heard. However, when it comes to audio, this phenomena seems to be extraordinarily present and often overwhelming. Most of us admit that it "exists", but the extentt to which it does is so overlooked and dismissed. Yes, there are some real differences in audio equipment such as speakers and amps, but audible differences are often another story, especially after you get past the low level stuff. If you pay $8,000 for an amp, by God, it's going to sound better than your friend's $800 amp. But when you put on a blindfold and compare them, all bets are off. Same with speakers. It's almost unreal. But hey, we're all in the never ending pursuit of sonic perfection. It just takes most of us longer than others to realize that reinventing speakers and amps is most often merely a way to make us part company from our wallets. Again, there are most certainly real differences in equipment out there, but it's only a fraction of what most would ever believe.

Off my soapbox now . I guess this was a kind of "Welcome to the club", because what you just were honest enough with yourself, and with us, to find out, should be like opening up a whole new world in the way you'll almost certainly, more objectively look at audio from this day forward. And imo, the club is frighteningly small .

Again, you've been awesome through this whole exercise!

Well if that is the case, you should have stopped after your first REW graphs with a dead flat response! That way you could have gone on believing you had the world's best room!

Thank you for all the hard work. This was one of my favorite threads to follow in a while because you always hear about what raising your subs off the floor does, but it was interesting to see what the science actually found.

What I was most impressed within that this thread did not turn into a witch hunt like some other threads have gone, especially with anything that effects a subwoofer.
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post #125 of 272
7/30/11 at 6:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

Well if that is the case, you should have stopped after your first REW graphs with a dead flat response! That way you could have gone on believing you had the world's best room!

Thank you for all the hard work. This was one of my favorite threads to follow in a while because you always hear about what raising your subs off the floor does, but it was interesting to see what the science actually found.

What I was most impressed within that this thread did not turn into a witch hunt like some other threads have gone, especially with anything that effects a subwoofer.

Yea, I should have stopped! and sang the praises of my perfect anechoic room!

Yes I agree this thread had been pretty amazing for me as well. I'm learning a lot.
Its been a great thread, and theres more to come!

I'm not even close to being done yet.

I thing the guys are easing me into more and more measurements when I can prove I can DO the other ones.

Hopefully in the end we'll have an answer as to why I perceived a change in sound quality from implementing risers.
I'm not even gonna say "improved sound quality" anymore because I realize now that ANY change may be noticeable, but not necessarily an improvment.

Test,
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post #126 of 272
7/30/11 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

Well if that is the case, you should have stopped after your first REW graphs with a dead flat response! That way you could have gone on believing you had the world's best room!

Thank you for all the hard work. This was one of my favorite threads to follow in a while because you always hear about what raising your subs off the floor does, but it was interesting to see what the science actually found.

What I was most impressed within that this thread did not turn into a witch hunt like some other threads have gone, especially with anything that effects a subwoofer.

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post #127 of 272
7/30/11 at 6:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Yeah, it will wear 'em out quicker. I was thinking more along the lines of when a stick breaks, it is sure to fly straight back into your face! They always seem to anyway, no matter what.

Unless you use these, they don't break too easy. I like the Lars Ulrich design, nice quick stick.

I need new skins all the way around anyhow. Just to expensive right now.
As for breaking sticks, hell I loose my grip and pop myself in the head all the time anyway. ..
Once I look around to make sure no one saw it happen....i;m good to go again.lol

I use Pearts 747's.

Test,
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post #128 of 272
7/31/11 at 1:20am
Test, congrats on getting REW to work, lots of power in a free program. I use it so much donated a few $'s to John.

I wonder what big daddy would say if you posted those graphs @ the blu-ray forum, as objective data........

Careful, now that you are starting to take objective data you might get ideas on others things, like tweaking your acoustics with treatments..
As some would say that's a rabbit hole.....I'm still in it myself.

Great thread.
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post #129 of 272
7/31/11 at 4:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post


Yea, I should have stopped! and sang the praises of my perfect anechoic room!

Yes I agree this thread had been pretty amazing for me as well. I'm learning a lot.
Its been a great thread, and theres more to come!

I'm not even close to being done yet.

I thing the guys are easing me into more and more measurements when I can prove I can DO the other ones.

Hopefully in the end we'll have an answer as to why I perceived a change in sound quality from implementing risers.
I'm not even gonna say "improved sound quality" anymore because I realize now that ANY change may be noticeable, but not necessarily an improvment.

Test,

You have also given me the courage to get REW up and running. I have two new subwoofers coming this week, so I am interested in getting them setup correctly in my room.
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post #130 of 272
7/31/11 at 4:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbx123 View Post



About...? About...? About...?
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post #131 of 272
7/31/11 at 6:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

About...? About...? About...?

Your confusion about who posted what. dbx isn't the thread starter.
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post #132 of 272
7/31/11 at 7:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Test, congrats on getting REW to work, lots of power in a free program. I use it so much donated a few $'s to John.

I wonder what big daddy would say if you posted those graphs @ the blu-ray forum, as objective data........

Careful, now that you are starting to take objective data you might get ideas on others things, like tweaking your acoustics with treatments..
As some would say that's a rabbit hole.....I'm still in it myself.

Great thread.

I probably will post some graphs over there later on.
I'm being careful right now because, One, I'm still learning how to use REW and Two I haven't done enough testing to prove or disprove those claims yet.
I'd like to make sure that I haven't skipped over a critical measurement.

As localhost127 and others have said, modal issues ARE important but a simple ALL SPL graph or a waterfall with the wrong parameters may not reveal whats really going on.

So, we keep testing.
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post #133 of 272
7/31/11 at 7:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

You have also given me the courage to get REW up and running. I have two new subwoofers coming this week, so I am interested in getting them setup correctly in my room.

Good for you! If i can do it, anybody can, that's for sure.


I'm sorry everyone, I just noticed that some pics aren't showing up anymore in the thread. I accidentally deleted them from photo bucket. grrr.
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post #134 of 272
7/31/11 at 9:50am
Thread Starter 
Ok everyone,

New round of REW this morning. I'm getting quite the workout

Not much difference than before.



Here we go! ALL SPL first. No smoothing applied.












Now on to the waterfalls:





I don't know how to overlay waterfalls, but upon close inspection there is a difference between On and Off risers.

Is it enough to hear a perceivable difference? I don't know, I will rely on you guys to let me know.

If any of you have some other measurement ideas let me know soon because I have yard work to to do later....

It really is looking like (at least in my case) nothing is be had with 6-7" risers.
I may have to raise them to 2 feet and try again...lol

**Added**

I have the REW file for the waterfall comparison. For those who know how to use rew I can e-mail you the file and you can load it, generate the waterfalls again and click between 2 measurements to see more easily the changes.



Test,
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post #135 of 272
7/31/11 at 11:20am
Can you post the other 7 or so charts in REW. Just post everything with the overlays would be fine. Don't worry about the individuals. If you have the time at any point today please. I hear the difference and I don't think it is just perceived. I agree there is a difference with the waterfalls. To overlay I think you can hit the levels button maybe and then generate and I think it will do overlays. Not sure tho.
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post #136 of 272
7/31/11 at 12:03pm
nice work.

looks like some very severe modal ringing / LF decay issues!!
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post #137 of 272
7/31/11 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

I haven't done enough testing to prove or disprove those claims yet.

Yes you have. The FR overlay in the post following the one quoted contradicts the 10dB differences stated in the BR forum thread.
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post #138 of 272
7/31/11 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post

nice work.

looks like some very severe modal ringing / LF decay issues!!

I thought it didn't look bad - but didn't notice that the time scale goes up to 800 ms! I'm used to seeing them scaled to 300 or 500.
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post #139 of 272
7/31/11 at 12:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

Can you post the other 7 or so charts in REW. Just post everything with the overlays would be fine. Don't worry about the individuals. If you have the time at any point today please. I hear the difference and I don't think it is just perceived. I agree there is a difference with the waterfalls. To overlay I think you can hit the levels button maybe and then generate and I think it will do overlays. Not sure tho.

Sorry Mpray, when you say "other 7" what do you mean?
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post #140 of 272
7/31/11 at 12:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post

nice work.

looks like some very severe modal ringing / LF decay issues!!

Both on risers and off?

Or one or the other?

(Keep in mind fellas, getting the data for me is one thing, interpreting some of them is another)


Test,
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post #141 of 272
7/31/11 at 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Yes you have. The FR overlay in the post following the one quoted contradicts the 10dB differences stated in the BR forum thread.

Your right! I forgot about that. I have mention in all honesty that when I took my spl meter measurements, I took the MAX reading not the average SPL.
Now that i'm using REW its becoming apparent that my SPL readings can fluctuate quite a bit and taking the High reading is inappropriate.

Test,
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post #142 of 272
7/31/11 at 1:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post
Can you post the other 7 or so charts in REW. Just post everything with the overlays would be fine. Don't worry about the individuals. If you have the time at any point today please. I hear the difference and I don't think it is just perceived. I agree there is a difference with the waterfalls. To overlay I think you can hit the levels button maybe and then generate and I think it will do overlays. Not sure tho.
It lets me overlay pretty much everything but waterfalls. Maybe I'm missing something?

Test,
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post #143 of 272
7/31/11 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101

It lets me overlay pretty much everything but waterfalls. Maybe I'm missing something?

Test,
You probably can't I can't remember.

I would go inside but im covered in saw dust.
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post #144 of 272
7/31/11 at 1:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post
I thought it didn't look bad - but didn't notice that the time scale goes up to 800 ms! I'm used to seeing them scaled to 300 or 500.
Hey Brad, yea were trying to see if decay modes are causing the "perceived" improvement is Sound Quality some experience.
I guess the longer 800ms in water data will show what a 300ms will not.

Test,
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post #145 of 272
7/31/11 at 2:33pm
Thread Starter 
Hey guys,

Here is something interesting.

I took a graph of the Decay fro both On and Off riser.
What it means? Again not sure, but with subs on floor it looks chaotic.
With subs on risers it looks neat and symmetric.

Here we go:





Humm.

Could we have found the answer here?

Now the only ink in the ointment seems to be that even after the rolloff at 80Hz things still seem to be "more symmetric" and this really shouldn't be because My Mains are the same regardless. You'd think, after 80hz both graphs should line up, but they don't.

This was my 3rd 4 sweep measurement and every one of them (+/- a few Db's) looked exactly the same.

Test,
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post #146 of 272
7/31/11 at 3:19pm
pretty sure the spectral decay is just the same as the waterfall, just presented different;y.

I don't see much difference in the waterfalls, 800 seems to much anyway. If you have a look, what I see is the sound decaying into the noisefloor...all that stuff nearest us is not the bass anymore, background noise. (bit hard to tell, but from around the 500 (?) marker, seems when we hit the background.

I can't however marry the spectral and waterfalls together...it might be an optical illusion as the waterfalls are presented on a slant as it were, the spectral from straight on if you follow. The spectral is just individual slices at the listed times.

In the OFF spectral (it's also hard scrolling up and down a long way to see btw!) look at the latest two slices (blue) at 90 hz, looks like it RISES again after having been down earlier. I don't see that in the corresponding waterfall, skewed angle not withstanding.

So something is odd, either the graphs OR my interpretation.

Oh, and the first few FR still had linear graphing, not log> No biggie, but hey.
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post #147 of 272
7/31/11 at 4:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post
pretty sure the spectral decay is just the same as the waterfall, just presented different;y.

I don't see much difference in the waterfalls, 800 seems to much anyway. If you have a look, what I see is the sound decaying into the noisefloor...all that stuff nearest us is not the bass anymore, background noise. (bit hard to tell, but from around the 500 (?) marker, seems when we hit the background.

I can't however marry the spectral and waterfalls together...it might be an optical illusion as the waterfalls are presented on a slant as it were, the spectral from straight on if you follow. The spectral is just individual slices at the listed times.

In the OFF spectral (it's also hard scrolling up and down a long way to see btw!) look at the latest two slices (blue) at 90 hz, looks like it RISES again after having been down earlier. I don't see that in the corresponding waterfall, skewed angle not withstanding.

So something is odd, either the graphs OR my interpretation.

Oh, and the first few FR still had linear graphing, not log> No biggie, but hey.
Yes I know its tough to see a difference in the waterfalls because they are not overlaid.
But I do have the file. I could send it and you could load it into REW for yourself.

I notice a difference between them because I can click back and forth in REW quickly. On/off/On/Off.

The spectral decay is pretty surprising in a way for me because it suggests that Off Riser freq. are all over the place in the db's. They are not "playing together"

While ON the risers, the freq range seems to be moving in sync in the db range.

I would guess this is important no?

Test,
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post #148 of 272
7/31/11 at 4:18pm
well dunno yet test. "we" need to sort out what appears to be differences, whether they are valid or not.

Was it a seperate measurement for the w/fall and decay? Or generated from the same one. If the same one then it IS odd, unless as you say I simply cannot see it in the w//fall as presented. (have not done it in a while, but am pretty sure you can change the 'skew' of the waterfall, if so maybe make it head on like the decay, AND limit the w/fall to the same figure of 140 ms or whatever it is??)
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post #149 of 272
7/31/11 at 4:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post
well dunno yet test. "we" need to sort out what appears to be differences, whether they are valid or not.

Was it a seperate measurement for the w/fall and decay? Or generated from the same one. If the same one then it IS odd, unless as you say I simply cannot see it in the w//fall as presented. (have not done it in a while, but am pretty sure you can change the 'skew' of the waterfall, if so maybe make it head on like the decay, AND limit the w/fall to the same figure of 140 ms or whatever it is??)
Sorry terry, no the Spectral decay graph and the waterfall graphs above were separate measurements. I did not derive the decay graphs from the previous water graphs.
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post #150 of 272
7/31/11 at 7:13pm
well, that's good in a way!!

I also wonder what *might* be the variations between measurements anyway, anyway we'll find that ouy when you run the next lot.

Generate the w/fall and spectral from the one measurement, see if that anomaly goes away. It would also give us an insight into the variations if any between measurements. It does not matter too much in the bass region, but a second measurement means a different mic position (usually, dunno in your case)
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