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Hearing is believing....WOW! - Page 2

post #31 of 272
7/27/11 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post
...I was surprised at the response here. I thought everyone was going to say, "Test didn't you know that risers are a good thing?"...
That's what I like about this forum. It's not just an orgy of believers swapping self reinforcing anecdotes. There are people who say, hold on, can you support that claim with evidence, without getting banned.
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post #32 of 272
7/27/11 at 10:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post
That's what I like about this forum. It's not just an orgy of believers swapping self reinforcing anecdotes. There are people who say, hold on, can you support that claim with evidence, without getting banned.
Yea me to. Goodness I hope I don't get banned!
The ideology behind risers "seemed" to make sense when I read about it. I admit I don't know enough or have the proof to make a statement such as I did in the title. I should have went about it a different way.

But, I still have my subs on those risers.....lol. They DO sound better. As for why? I don't know.

Test,
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post #33 of 272
7/27/11 at 11:04am
OT - Test obviously you are a Rush fan, right?
One of my fav rock bands of all times, I graduated HS in 1980....longtime....seen them in concert 5-6 times....
I have all their vinyl albums and some double bought on CD's - I just can't part with that vinatge vinyl......take care.
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post #34 of 272
7/27/11 at 11:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
OT - Test obviously you are a Rush fan, right?
One of my fav rock bands of all times, I graduated HS in 1980....longtime....seen them in concert 5-6 times....
I have all their vinyl albums and some double bought on CD's - I just can't part with that vinatge vinyl......take care.
Lol, yea HUGE Rush fan. Maybe that's why you were nicer to me? lmao!
I can't prove that though.

I've been to 5 concerts over the years. I just turned 40 so I'm glad to see the boys still going. Its somehow comforting to know they are still out there playing.

My First concert was Power Windows. Was the best one too.
I "thought" they sounded better back then.

I'm kicking myself because I missed the last tour but I just couldn't make it.

Hopefully, we'll all have one more shot to see them.

Test,
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post #35 of 272
7/27/11 at 11:39am
Test - any fan of Rush is a friend of mine!

Sharing with you why freq plots show more than just spl meter.

I made broadband bass traps and was "playing" my ref track - the infamous KFP skadoosh scene.
Clearly the 2nd row sounded louder - subjectively- and measured louder - via RS spl meter - than the 1st row...but I did not know why.

Upon taking REW freq resp measurements it became clear the 2nd row was "better" for LFE than the 1st row, 1st and 2nd graphs below show that.
And comaprision overlay shown in 3rd graph it's clear there is more sonic energy "bass" in the 2nd row seating than the 1st, and at what freq.

Need to see LFE freq graphs in 1/12 octave smoothing also, not 1/3 octave, that will "hide" things that your ear can hear.

You miss all that with a simple RS spl meter db reading.

From another post I made with graphs/etc:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
As reference for seat layout:


Set-up:
REW5, calibrated Mic, running thru the Ext IN.
No Eq and no Audyssey.
This is pure Raw in room IB sub response with the acoustic treatments/room interactions showing themselves.
I also use 1/12 smoothing for LFE plots to show peaks/nulls, when doing 200hz-20khz then I use 1/3 smoothing.

In real world listening I run 80hz xover also.
The fronts R/C/L in Audyssey show as Large, but I set them to small with 80hz xover.

Nearfield + 1st row seats + avg:
Only change is mic moved from seat 1-4 position, so room modes show themself here...


Nearfield +2nd row seats + avg:
Only change is mic moved from seat 5-8 position, room length mode 30hz peak shows here...and it is what it is, besides that pretty consistent in 2nd row.
It's the best row for LFE.


This is a comparison of 1st row vs 2nd row.
With my RS SPL meter I can notice about 4-5db or so more in the 2nd row than the 1st row.
Tested with the infamous KFP skadoosh scene.
When the volume is @ ref level, 0db, and the EP2500 is NOT running "hot" - calibrated norm (EP2500 gain at 12 oclock/ 24 on scale), I get 113db in 1st row and 117db in 2nd row.
When I run the EP2500 full HOT (34 on scale) I got 124db in 2nd row and 119db in 1st row.

Test, also the REW forum @ HTS can assist you in connecting your RS spl meter. http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...on-basics.html

Quote:
Every SPL meter or microphone requires a calibration file to be loaded into REW .....Radio Shack meters with a cal file are acceptable for subwoofer testing and up to approximately 3KHz. For full range measurements, a better SPL is required (such as the Galaxy CM-140).

We do offer generic calibration files that are suitable for home use on the Downloads Pagefor ....., Old Analog Radio Shack SPL Meter Model 33-2050 as well as the two newer Analog and Digital Radio Shack SPL Meters - Model 33-4050 and Model 33-2055. The generic files are fine for home use.
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post #36 of 272
7/27/11 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post
That's what I like about this forum. It's not just an orgy of believers swapping self reinforcing anecdotes. There are people who say, hold on, can you support that claim with evidence, without getting banned.
we are the AV Science forum - science includes using objective data to substantiate subjective claims, no snake oil.
Open honest debate, no personal attacks (hopefully), attack the subject not the person behind the subject.
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post #37 of 272
7/27/11 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post
Lol, yea HUGE Rush fan.
It's law in Canuckisan to claim that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
we are the AV Science forum - science includes using objective data to substantiate subjective claims, no snake oil.
I agree, but it will be interesting to see what the response, if any is. You getting banned for even asking is surprising.
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post #38 of 272
7/27/11 at 1:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

It's law in Canuckisan to claim that.

Yea but i swear its true! Cross my heart!

Quote:


I agree, but it will be interesting to see what the response, if any is. You getting banned for even asking is surprising.

I doubt that is what happened. (At least I hope so)
I haven't heard back yet in response to my post over there.

To me what is most confusing is that certain people in our audio community (all of it) are respected and known for expertise no matter what forums they moderate or herald from.
People such as Kal, Dennis and Ted (+ many others) are such people.

When they give advice you can be sure they have your best interests in mind.

Big Daddy is one those people for me. He seems to know the science and expertise to guide a nobody like me to improve my setup.

So, I took his advice. Thinking, the science behind it was already settled.

I made a couple risers and posted my experience without any proof but my ears.

Ok, I made a big mistake doing that. I admit it.

Now, if it were just me that reported back good results I'd hang me too.

But its not just me. Alot of people way more knowledgeable than I have noticed an improvement as well.

I guess the question is why? It certainly can't be all in our heads.

Maybe its not vertical axial modes, but something else?

I don't know.

All I can say is that from a scientifically based perspective I have nothing.
From a "what you hear" perspective in my listening position raising my subs and doing nothing else (but turn down the subs collective volume) I noticed a significant improvement.

An improvement not in volume, not in "how low can it go" but from a clarity perspective. I have no muddy issues any longer. I have no "One note rumble" any longer.

In fact I really didn't know I even had those issues until i tried risers.

I am at a loss as to why this is the case.

Maybe, my subs were always in the wrong horizontal placement. It could be that moving my subs to another location ON THE FLOOR would have accomplished the same thing.

Could be why a lot of people "think" risers work when they only had to move the subs horizontally to a better location their particular room.

I will be interested to finally learn the truth of it.

Test,
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post #39 of 272
7/27/11 at 1:19pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks mtbdudex,

Thats a lot of info I need to digest. Thank you for taking the time!!
Once I get an SPL meter that can integrate with my laptop and REW I will certainly learn how to use it and post results.

I hope this thread even at my expense can be a lesson for other people about the importance of having real data over just ears only observations.

Test,
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post #40 of 272
7/27/11 at 1:32pm
One more time. Does your receiver have EZset?

edit: actually, never mind if it does and the mic is in the remote, I forgot how HK does things differently.
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post #41 of 272
7/27/11 at 1:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

One more time. Does your receiver have EZset?

edit: actually, never mind if it does and the mic is in the remote, I forgot how HK does things differently.

Hey AJinFLA,

No that's ok, I did answer that in a previous post:

Quote:


I know I skipped over answering some of your posts guys, but that's only because I don't have an answer for you.
I can answer that I don't use the EZset/EQ pile of crap. I do all my leveling,distance, crossovers manually.
All speakers at 80Hz and the subs crossover disabled. The AVR handles that.
I use my spl meter, a tape measure and a laser level to get my speakers directed twords my main listening position.

My AVR 254 actually does have a dedicated Mic but I find that while it gets close for distances, the EQ part is horrible.

Test,
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post #42 of 272
7/27/11 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

Thanks mtbdudex,

Thats a lot of info I need to digest. Thank you for taking the time!!
Once I get an SPL meter that can integrate with my laptop and REW I will certainly learn how to use it and post results.

I hope this thread even at my expense can be a lesson for other people about the importance of having real data over just ears only observations.

Test,

I have a couple of M-K THX150'S in the opposite corners of my theater(on carpet over a concrete slab) Now they do boom no doubt sitting directly on the carpet... What would you guys recommend for riser height for a start 3.5" = 2x4 height or?
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post #43 of 272
7/27/11 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

Hey AJinFLA,
No that's ok, I did answer that in a previous post:


My AVR 254 actually does have a dedicated Mic but I find that while it gets close for distances, the EQ part is horrible.

Test,

Sorry I missed it. When you say "dedicated mic".....as in a wired mic like those with MCACC, Audyssey, etc, or one built into the remote control?
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post #44 of 272
7/27/11 at 2:13pm
test4echo,

are you sure you didn't have any coupling issues to begin with??
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post #45 of 272
7/27/11 at 2:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Sorry I missed it. When you say "dedicated mic".....as in a wired mic like those with MCACC, Audyssey, etc, or one built into the remote control?

Its a dedicated mike that plugs into the front jack on the AVR.
It has a 25 cable attached (Not sure of the length).

I've tried it a ton of times in all sorts of configs and the AVR always sounds much better without the EZSET/EQ.

I had a Denon before with Audyysey and the HK EZSET/EQ is not even in the same league. Its horrible.

Test,
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post #46 of 272
7/27/11 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

Its a dedicated mike that plugs into the front jack on the AVR.
It has a 25 cable attached (Not sure of the length)

Does the computer you are posting on, or any other in your house, have a soundcard?
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post #47 of 272
7/27/11 at 2:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post

test4echo,

are you sure you didn't have any coupling issues to begin with??

No I'm not sure. That very well could be the case.
I read many forums that a concrete slab (Below grade) with thick carpet over top would NOT cause the issues that the subdudes seem to help with.

I just figured that what I would be addressing with risers would be more vertical axial modes rather than coupling modes.

But that is nothing more than a guess.

Test,
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post #48 of 272
7/27/11 at 2:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Does the computer you are posting on, or any other in your house, have a soundcard?

Yea I do have a laptop with sound card. I just don't have the SPL meter to mate with it. My SPL doesn't have outputs.

I thought I need that? No?

Test,
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post #49 of 272
7/27/11 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

Yea I do have a laptop with sound card. I just don't have the SPL meter to mate with it. My SPL doesn't have outputs.

I thought I need that? No?

Test,

No. You need one of these, available at Radioshack or Walmart, etc. Maybe even WorseBuy. Then you are ready to take real measurements.
Plug your HK mic with the adapter into your laptop soundcards mic input. Go to the Windows (unless you are using a Mac) Volume Control and Recording Devices, make sure the mic is the default device.
Then download any of the free programs (REW, Holm, etc.). I use TruRTA because I bought it about a century ago. Here is a screen shot using just such a setup, an old Pioneer MCACC mic plugged into my Netbooks soundcard:

That should help clarify the mystery.

cheers,

AJ
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post #50 of 272
7/27/11 at 3:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

No. You need one of these, available at Radioshack or Walmart, etc. Maybe even WorseBuy. Then you are ready to take real measurements.
Plug your HK mic with the adapter into your laptop soundcards mic input. Go to the Windows (unless you are using a Mac) Volume Control and Recording Devices, make sure the mic is the default device.
Then download any of the free programs (REW, Holm, etc.). I use TruRTA because I bought it about a century ago. Here is a screen shot using just such a setup, an old Pioneer MCACC mic plugged into my Netbooks soundcard:

That should help clarify the mystery.

cheers,

AJ

We're in business then. I have all that.
Why do people say you need an SPL meter with outputs?
Gezz....If I would have known....

I'll get right on that!

Thanks!
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post #51 of 272
7/27/11 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

We're in business then. I have all that.
Why do people say you need an SPL meter with outputs?
Gezz....If I would have known....

I'll get right on that!

Thanks!

No sleep tonight until you post your 1st graph!
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post #52 of 272
7/27/11 at 3:20pm
congrats on your attitued test.

You may do the measurements and find out you are right (say), but whatever happens you are willing to LOOK.

Good onya, most would have just stayed in a huff, you didn't.

fantastic.

(oh, what gave away the Rush reference>> Is testecho an album title or summat?
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post #53 of 272
7/27/11 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

congrats on your attitued test.

You may do the measurements and find out you are right (say), but whatever happens you are willing to LOOK.

Good onya, most would have just stayed in a huff, you didn't.

fantastic.

(oh, what gave away the Rush reference>> Is testecho an album title or summat?

A true Rush fan knows!
Seriously, I sa his avs handle and instantly connected it to Rush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_for_Echo
Quote:


Test for Echo is the sixteenth studio album by Canadian rock band Rush, released in 1996. The album marks the final Rush work prior to the events in Neil Peart's life that put the band on hiatus for several years. Peart recorded a majority of his drum tracks for the album using traditional grip, after receiving drum lessons from jazz instructor Freddie Gruber.

The cover denotes the inunnguaq, native to the band's home country of Canada, which is a stone figure in the shape of a human used to mark a food cache or hunting ground.

The title track reached #1 on the Mainstream Rock chart. "Driven" became a bass showcase for bassist Geddy Lee during live performances, while "Resist" was rearranged as an acoustic song on the Vapor Trails and R30 tours.

btw, this is the vinyl I have of Rush

Rush (1974)
Fly by Night (1975)
Caress of Steel (1975)
2112 (1976)
A Farewell to Kings (1977)
Hemispheres (1978)
Permanent Waves (1980)
Moving Pictures (1981)
Signals (1982)

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post #54 of 272
7/27/11 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

We're in business then. I have all that.
Why do people say you need an SPL meter with outputs?
Gezz....If I would have known....

I'll get right on that!

Thanks!

You're welcome. ARTA demo version is also free and goes to 1/24th oct RTA IIRC. Can't save files, but there's always the ability to save screen shots. Plenty of free pink noise files out there as well that you can use if you don't want to run the program generators.

cheers

AJ
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post #55 of 272
7/27/11 at 5:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

No sleep tonight until you post your 1st graph!

Well its 8:07 PM here and I just started.....I'm afraid it going to take me a while to figure out what the heck i'm doing.
Pretty confusing for me.

So, no soup forrr you tonight.

Test,
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post #56 of 272
7/27/11 at 5:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

You're welcome. ARTA demo version is also free and goes to 1/24th oct RTA IIRC. Can't save files, but there's always the ability to save screen shots. Plenty of free pink noise files out there as well that you can use if you don't want to run the program generators.

cheers

AJ

Hey thanks AJ,

I decided to go with REW because of the support it has. If i can't "get it" I'll try ARTA. (Not that i'd get that either...lol)

Either way, Here's to solving a mystery! Cheers!

Test,
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post #57 of 272
7/27/11 at 5:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

congrats on your attitued test.

You may do the measurements and find out you are right (say), but whatever happens you are willing to LOOK.

Good onya, most would have just stayed in a huff, you didn't.

fantastic.

(oh, what gave away the Rush reference>> Is testecho an album title or summat?

Is Test4echo a Rush album? How dare you!
Yea it is, and to be honest, not one of my favs but I liked the title. I've had it for 14 years. I got a yahoo mail message last month thanking me for having an account for 14 years.....Lord...I don't know how to feel about that..lol

As for the main body of your post, I kinda put myself in a bad spot right off the get go considering the kind of knowledge here. I got called out, and I really had no answer besides my ears.
I feel like I've stuck my entire foot in my mouth. lol

I'm for truth, so, when i do the measurements and they say i'm wrong then so be it. I got no problem with that. I mean, they are 20 dollar risers i can remove at will so who cares.

I do think the issue of modes is important though. Many swear by their riser's but some real data would be nice.

Test,
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post #58 of 272
7/27/11 at 5:45pm
Measurements with and without my auralex grammas in place. No difference at all really. I did notice the commercials on fx when I removed them did sound boomy. I think it greatly imprives SQ and i have tested it with ported and sealed subs. These measurements are with twin 15's in 3cf enclosures.
LL
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post #59 of 272
7/27/11 at 6:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

Measurements with and without my auralex grammas in place. No difference at all really. I did notice the commercials on fx when I removed them did sound boomy.

Well, there ya go, no ones likes boomy commercials!

I'm still figuring out REW. I don't have all the connectors I need so It will have to wait till I get them.

I'm missing the 3.5mm to RCA connector.

Your graph was pretty small but from what I could see, It looked like any improvement you had was well beyond where a sub would be useful but for that small bump at what, 37Hz?

Interesting.

Thanks!

Test,
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post #60 of 272
7/27/11 at 6:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by test4echo101 View Post

Well, there ya go, no ones likes boomy commercials!

I'm still figuring out REW. I don't have all the connectors I need so It will have to wait till I get them.

I'm missing the 3.5mm to RCA connector.

Your graph was pretty small but from what I could see, It looked like any improvement you had was well beyond where a sub would be useful.

Interesting.

Thanks!

Test,

i dont think improvement can be measured in frequency extension and SPL. Its more sound quality which i dont know how to measure.
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