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HuskerOmaha's Subwoofer Showdown GTG (Interest Thread)

post #1 of 308
Thread Starter 
I started an interest thread on CHT forum back in February about hosting a summer GTG to objectively test subs along with a bit of subjective views from attendees. Since then, after a few schedule delays we will finally be able to do it. The original thread is still on the CHT forum.

However, since the brothers and Ricci in particular have done the objective stuff better than we can; have decided to do more subjective testing in subs in general.

I wanted to get the word out to more local sub owners who might want to attend, as well as get the thoughts of everyone on the ideas and what else people who are looking at subs want to know before they buy.

Subjective Ideas:

What do different alignments sound like?
(MFW driver: Vented, Sealed DIY, F-20?)

Do people prefer more midbass output or low bass output?

Does EQ make a difference in listening?

Can attendees tell if EQ is on/off?

At what volume do capabilities start to make a difference?

Does location make a difference in listening?
(We could use the two MFW-15 Turbos for this and switch between them since they each have their own amp.)

What does unlimited bass sound like? (8 MFW-15's and two 18.1's)

Playing the VS-18 and the CS -18 together, and other sealed + ported mixes and see what people think. Test the theory that the same design is better than mixed. Cross the ported sub over at a higher frequency. See reactions.

Do attendees prefer the effect of nearfield subs +/- usual placement (wall locations) and with what type of bass output?

What do attendees prefer for different subs for the crossover freq?
(80,100,120)

Ask attendees on the difference in sealed/vented/horns musicality vs HT use and which they preferred.

Objective Ideas:

Close Mics

(Took down many of these ideas, but was thinking about thermal compression, GP, among others)

Subs:

Chase Home Theater CS 18.T (HuskerOmaha)
CHT Dual VS 18.1 (Craigsub)
Rythmik (Kwarny DIY specs below)
^^Driver - DS 1500, Amp - A370 - PEQ, Box - 3.86 cu. ft. - L/H/W 21" x 20" x 20"^^
eD a7s-450 (Dr Spankenstein)
Dual JTR Captivator Pros (Archaea)
Motor City Custom Audio MFW-Turbo (2), MFW-Dual Opposed Sealed DIY with MCCA SA 1000 amp(4) (desertdome)
Dual BIC F12s (kcnitro07 and bighick)

Klipsch Sonotube DIY (YamahaSHO)
Overall - ~40", Tube cut - 34.5", End caps - 2x 3/4" MDF glued (inside tube) + 1/2" plywood (inside), Port: Precision Port 4": 20hz tune
Driver: Klipsch RW-12d. Amp: Parts Express BASH 300S. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1294134&page=4

Danley DTS-10 (EP4000) (nebrunner)
JTR Growler (EP4000) (nebrunner)
(These will be run together utilizing EQ)

LilMike DIY Cinema F-20 (2) with Samson SX 1200 Amp (HuskerOmaha)

HSU VTF-2 MK3 + MBM-12 MK1 (desertdome)

BIC F12 (?)

****OTHERS WELCOME****

Testing Equipment:

Behringer ECM8000 microphone calibrated to 5 Hz by Cross Spectrum Labs
Tascam US-122L to use as preamp/soundcard for mic
Laptop with REW V5 for measuring
Radio Shack digital SPL Meter
Galaxy CM130 SPL Meter
Behringer DCX2496
Sampson S-Convert
Henry Engineering Matchbox HD
Boom Microphone Stand/Tripod
HTPC running Windows 7 64 bit
Onkyo NR-1007 AVR
L/C/R driven by _____________


Treatments:
I currently only have my screen wall treated. Kwarny had linked an Ethan Winer suggestion on utilizing 4 large insulation rolls from Lowes and throwing them in the corners to see the difference/need of bass traps. May do this.
With all the people and subs present may not be doing bass traps in the front of the room, just the rear.

Location: Omaha, Nebraska

When: October 22, 2011
(Setup on Friday evening, Testing Saturday, Sunday open if needed)


So, if you are interested in attending for a bit or the whole thing, let me know. We currently have around 8-10 people locally and a few driving a few to several hours to come.

Please offer any constructive input you have regarding the ideas listed, testing methods, or others that you think should be included.
post #2 of 308
Thread Starter 
Reserved
post #3 of 308
Should hold it next year during the chili cookoffs, no?!
post #4 of 308
HuskerOmaha I think this GTG it is a good idea and there will be IMO allot of people interested in some of these subs reading about how they stack up. Hopefully this thread will stay fun and be informative irregardless of what information is posted on it.
post #5 of 308
I say you stick to subs that are in production.

Pre-production subs are often not indicative of the quality and performance once the subs are in production.
post #6 of 308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.T.MIKE View Post

HuskerOmaha I think this GTG it is a good idea and there will be IMO allot of people interested in some of these subs reading about how they stack up. Hopefully this thread will stay fun and be informative irregardless of what information is posted on it.

Definitely, we are looking forward to getting some accurate close mics of the subs listed, as well as a few other objective measurements. Since Ricci is really getting some good testing done it has been talked about doing a bunch of these subjective questions that many have. If people are, however, interested in us getting some numbers on a certain sub or all, please let me know!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I say you stick to subs that are in production.

Pre-production subs are often not indicative of the quality and performance once the subs are in production.

I agree. I changed the descriptor to "if available".
post #7 of 308
These types of GTGs can be informative, as long as the subs being tested are production models. The current list shows an eD sub with no description, a DIY Klipsch, a DIY MFW and those "Turbo" resurrected MFWs, a DIY Rythmik, an out of production Hsu, and a JTR Growler (!), which is really a pro sound midbass unit. The Danley DTS-10 and the powered Cap are interesting, I would like to see numbers on those. Hopefully more subs will be added, as it now stands it's looking a little like a CHT showcase.
post #8 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I agree. I changed the descriptor to "if available".

Were you offered a pre-production sub from CHT for the GTG?
post #9 of 308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

These types of GTGs can be informative, as long as the subs being tested are production models. The current list shows an eD sub with no description, a DIY Klipsch, a DIY MFW and those "Turbo" resurrected MFWs, a DIY Rythmik, an out of production Hsu, and a JTR Growler (!), which is really a pro sound midbass unit. The Danley DTS-10 and the powered Cap are interesting, I would like to see numbers on those. Hopefully more subs will be added, as it now stands it's looking a little like a CHT showcase.

Yep, we have some locals that have DIY subs that wanted some numbers. I hope Alex is able to bring a couple eD subs as well. Like I said in the first post, a lot of this GTG will NOT be a head to head numbers comparison on subs. If people ask for certain measurements, we will try and get those as time allows. That is why I have an INTEREST thread, to see who else can attend, and what subs they may be able to bring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Were you offered a pre-production sub from CHT for the GTG?

I am hoping the VS-18.1 is in production by then so we can get one.
post #10 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I agree. I changed the descriptor to "if available".

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Were you offered a pre-production sub from CHT for the GTG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I am hoping the VS-18.1 is in production by then so we can get one.

Didn't really answer my question, but OK.

Do we know when Ricci will get one to test? Will you be getting before he does?

I know you mentioned taking measurements of the subs, but for the objective measurements, it would be nice for Ricci to get the subs to do that kind of testing. He has the experience doing so, and other subs to compare against. Also, with someone like Ricci doing objective measurements, it causes less speculation.

Comparison with DIY is always interesting.
post #11 of 308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Didn't really answer my question, but OK.

Do we know when Ricci will get one to test? Will you be getting before he does?

I know you mentioned taking measurements of the subs, but for the objective measurements, it would be nice for Ricci to get the subs to do that kind of testing. He has the experience doing so, and other subs to compare against. Also, with someone like Ricci doing objective measurements, it causes less speculation.

Comparison with DIY is always interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post


However, since the brothers and Ricci in particular have done the objective stuff better than we can; have decided to do more subjective testing in subs in general.

I wanted to get the word out to more local sub owners who might want to attend, as well as get the thoughts of everyone on the ideas and what else people who are looking at subs want to know before they buy.

I have invited reps/owners from the other forums I'm on (Seaton, eD, CHT) to attend if possible. I know Seaton is going to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest so he doubted he would have time to drive west back to back weekends. Alex from eD might be able to attend and bring subs with him. Craig from CHT showed interest and might be able to bring some models-including any new stuff. Regarding the VS 18.1--the enclosure maker has changed, so I'm not sure of the status of that now. The brothers have already tested one of the pre-production models and done a review.

I would direct you to the CHT forum for any other questions regarding that or to read the review.

I haven't been directly offered anything, just am hoping if those guys make it they can bring some of their products!

Do you guys have any other suggestions for the GTG? Anything else between sealed and ported designs you would like us to try.

I'm excited for the possibilities of hearing something different and seeing what works best in my setup as well.

I want to start getting into DIY....starting with the Sealed MFW Dual Opposed builds and maybe even an F-20 or two if we can get that built out in the next month or two for the GTG.
post #12 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I have invited reps/owners from the other forums I'm on (Seaton, eD, CHT) to attend if possible. I know Seaton is going to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest so he doubted he would have time to drive west back to back weekends. Alex from eD might be able to attend and bring subs with him. Craig from CHT showed interest and might be able to bring some models-including any new stuff. Regarding the VS 18.1--the enclosure maker has changed, so I'm not sure of the status of that now. The brothers have already tested one of the pre-production models and done a review.

I would direct you to the CHT forum for any other questions regarding that or to read the review.

I haven't been directly offered anything, just am hoping if those guys make it they can bring some of their products!

Do you guys have any other suggestions for the GTG? Anything else between sealed and ported designs you would like us to try.

I'm excited for the possibilities of hearing something different and seeing what works best in my setup as well.

I want to start getting into DIY....starting with the Sealed MFW Dual Opposed builds and maybe even an F-20 or two if we can get that built out in the next month or two for the GTG.

No worries...just wondering why you would list "pre-production" if nothing was offered up.

For the objective measurements, I just glanced at the section in your post labeled "Objective ideas".
post #13 of 308
There are a few of us Kansas City guys that might be interested in a road trip...I'll have to ask them. We have a second child due in October and so depending on timeframe it might not work out for me, but I love these events and had a lot of fun at our event this May in KC. I've personally got subs coming out of my ears right now - so if I can make it out and still have this gear I could probably lend something to the party. Do keep in mind that you don't want too many or the day just gets tooooooo long.

My current sub list...

Dual SVS PB13 Ultras
Yamaha CW218V
Dual JTR Captivator Pros
Dual Infinity HPS-1000s (if they both are fixed in time for your event)
and I just sold off my pair of Jamo D7subs recently.
post #14 of 308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

No worries...just wondering why you would list "pre-production" if nothing was offered up.

For the objective measurements, I just glanced at the section in your post labeled "Objective ideas".

Yeah, I hope we get to hear a VS-18.1. I'm interested in what the same driver that I have now sounds like in that alignment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

There are a few of us Kansas City guys that might be interested in a road trip...I'll have to ask them. We have a second child due in October and so depending on timeframe it might not work out for me, but I love these events and had a lot of fun at our event this May in KC. I've personally got subs coming out of my ears right now - so if I can make it out and still have this gear I could probably lend something to the party. Do keep in mind that you don't want too many or the day just gets tooooooo long.

My current sub list...

Dual SVS PB13 Ultras
Yamaha CW218V
Dual JTR Captivator Pros
Dual Infinity HPS-1000s (if they both are fixed in time for your event)
and I just sold off my pair of Jamo D7subs recently.

That would be awesome if a few of you can drive up. We have only about 6-8 guys that should be here for sure as of now...with up to 10 possibles.

I think we can get another 5-6 down here and not be TOO crazy...I have 8-10 seats and then some standing room.

I know you probably couldn't bring them all, but I haven't heard back yet from the Powered Cap guy (Chicago) and nube can't make it with his because we delayed so long. Would love to hear the dual SVS and dual JTRs.

Maybe the Missouri river won't have I-29 blocked off by then as well.

I really want to be able to hit all those subjective scenarios and more, the objective stuff is being done by Ricci on the majority of these ID subs sooner or later. Close mics are easy and useful though.
post #15 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

There are a few of us Kansas City guys that might be interested in a road trip...I'll have to ask them. We have a second child due in October and so depending on timeframe it might not work out for me, but I love these events and had a lot of fun at our event this May in KC. I've personally got subs coming out of my ears right now - so if I can make it out and still have this gear I could probably lend something to the party. Do keep in mind that you don't want too many or the day just gets tooooooo long.

My current sub list...

Dual SVS PB13 Ultras
Yamaha CW218V
Dual JTR Captivator Pros
Dual Infinity HPS-1000s (if they both are fixed in time for your event)
and I just sold off my pair of Jamo D7subs recently.

I'm game as long as I don't have to work that weekend. Road trip?
post #16 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I'm game as long as I don't have to work that weekend. Road trip?

That would be a lot of fun counsil! -- my problem is the date, my wife is due around that time ( I missed that it was already scheduled tenatively to be hosted October 22 in the OP, because my baby is due like week earlier than that ). I can get away with some things but disappearing off to a subwoofer meet a week after the baby is due/born is not the way to place family priorities! Ha! That pretty much eliminates my attendance unless the baby comes like a month early!

I'll keep up to date on the thread in case something changes and if I can't make it I'll still love to read about it! Perhaps some of the other KC guys would be interested in the road trip! Luke, carp, Randy B, chirpie? If you guys end up going out there I'll recommend a odd little mom and pop restaraunt that has the best prime rib I've ever had - no contest. Great food - weird name.

"The Pink Poodle"
http://www.pinkpoodlesteakhouse.com/

BTW - I think somebody ought to just pony up $180 bucks shipped to pick up a BIC F12 for the meet. No it won't win the meet against the top shelf subs you have involved in any category but value ---- however I think you'll be darn surprised how good it sounds for less than $200 bucks shipped. I know I was really quite surprised when I heard one for the first time recently. If everybody attending pitched in $15 bucks you'd near have it paid for and you could raffle it off to one of the attendees for fun. That BIC F12 is soooo much better than any typical cheap HTIB, or Department Store sub. My bud has a HTIB Onkyo, and just about everyone with a cheaper system has some sort of cheap sub, I've heard lots of these junk subs over the years --- the F12 blows all those cheapies away. It could easily find a home in a secondary system at my house and I'd have no complaints.
post #17 of 308
I would love to make a road trip up, I wasn't able to make my annual trip up to Lincoln to see college buddies so I'm itchin' to go up north.

However my wife really thinks I'm going a bit off the deep lately with this hobby. I don't know if I could push it as far as a road trip...

I guess I could say, "Hey, Jonathan just had a kid and he's in!!" j/k

I'll stay tuned though to see how it unfolds.
post #18 of 308
I wish I could make it, but I move out of the Midwest in a couple of weeks. It'd be nice to see a lot of these subs get compared. Good luck to all who do attend!
post #19 of 308
Some of you guys need to move to New England, there is an overly high concentration of Sub GTGs in the Midwest region.
post #20 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

These types of GTGs can be informative, as long as the subs being tested are production models. The current list shows an eD sub with no description, a DIY Klipsch, a DIY MFW and those "Turbo" resurrected MFWs, a DIY Rythmik, an out of production Hsu, and a JTR Growler (!), which is really a pro sound midbass unit. The Danley DTS-10 and the powered Cap are interesting, I would like to see numbers on those. Hopefully more subs will be added, as it now stands it's looking a little like a CHT showcase.

Seriously? It's a bunch of guys getting together and bringing what they have for love of a hobby...you get what you get.

Some of you need to lighten up and remember why most of us are on here...it's because we like to feel our insides liquify from intense bass, not because we're here to push products. Stop bringing your baggage into every single thread.
post #21 of 308
I would love to see a shootout in San Diego. Or any demo really =(
post #22 of 308
Husker...
Does anyone who will be there have the ability to run REW? Do you have a decent EQ unit available supported by REW? MiniDSP, DCX, BFD, etc? I hope yes.

What I would suggest is this.
1.Place all of the subs in the same location when you listen to them, or as close as you can anyway.

2.Have everyone listening try to remain in the same seat throughout the day as much as possible.

3. Use the same program material for all subs.

4. Pick one seating location to make measurements from. Take an REW frequency response measurement of each sub from this same location at a similar drive level.

5. Use the REW sweep and auto eq function to generate eq settings to flatten each subs response. Try to get the responses roughly similar. It doesn't have to be perfect. You just don't want radical 10db differences in response shape. If there are wild variations in response amongst the subs this is what will be heard and this does not necessarily indicate how the sub can perform optimally. You mentioned a DTS-10. That sub for example simply must have EQ as anyone who runs one will tell you. It is required as part of the regular use of it. Otherwise it has a peaky response that is very loud up near 80hz and if you level match it this way it will seem to have little low bass since it is -15 or 20db down from the 80-100hz response. In reality it is a monster over the 12.5-25hz octave. Actually this sub needs some mains delay as well to match up since it has such a long internal path length.

6. After applying the suggested EQ settings take another response measurement with REW to show the effects.

7. At this point level match the sub to the mains. It does not matter if you want to run the subs flat, 6db hot or even 12db hot, or whatever you want. Just make sure that each sub is set similarily.

8. Throw on the demos and pop open a cold brewski. Enjoy. Be careful with the level on the smaller subs.

Just a suggestion. I think if this was done at future GTG's it would go a long way towards making them more relevant. Good luck.
post #23 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Husker...
Does anyone who will be there have the ability to run REW? Do you have a decent EQ unit available supported by REW? MiniDSP, DCX, BFD, etc? I hope yes.

Yes, as mentioned under testing equipment we will have a DCX2496. I also have miniDSP and a Steinberg MR816x that I can use with J. River Media Center for parametric EQ, Linkwitz Transform, etc. One idea is to have the mains connected and 6 subs to the MR816x. The subs can each have separate EQ setup. We can then mute/unmute the subs while playing content and instantly hear the differences.

Thanks for all of your suggestions.
post #24 of 308
Can the MR816x handle delay/phase issues as well? The DTS-10 will require the mains to be delayed for integration.

Actually, setting up the correct phase to integrate with the mains will be a issue for all subs to a certain degree.
post #25 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Can the MR816x handle delay/phase issues as well? The DTS-10 will require the mains to be delayed for integration.

Actually, setting up the correct phase to integrate with the mains will be a issue for all subs to a certain degree.

Mark Seaton recommends using the distance setting rather than phase for aligning subs with the mains. Whatever method of EQ is used (miniDSP, DCX2496, J. River Media Center) can handle any delay issues. The MR816x is a firewire audio device and doesn't do any processing itself.
post #26 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by kivyee View Post

Seriously? It's a bunch of guys getting together and bringing what they have for love of a hobby...you get what you get.

Some of you need to lighten up and remember why most of us are on here...it's because we like to feel our insides liquify from intense bass, not because we're here to push products. Stop bringing your baggage into every single thread.

Maybe, maybe not... and I often wonder why a lot of people are actually here. Right now the GTG subs are a mixed bag, leaning heavily towards DIY, a few subs that have limited appeal due to price or aesthetics, and of course the whole CHT lineup! Whatever, have fun, but a few more mainstream subs would be more helpful for comparison.
post #27 of 308
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Yes, as mentioned under testing equipment we will have a DCX2496. I also have miniDSP and a Steinberg MR816x that I can use with J. River Media Center for parametric EQ, Linkwitz Transform, etc. One idea is to have the mains connected and 6 subs to the MR816x. The subs can each have separate EQ setup. We can then mute/unmute the subs while playing content and instantly hear the differences.

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

Desertdome is the resident EQ man around Omaha. He helped EQ my system when we set it up several months back. He knows his stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I would love to make a road trip up, I wasn't able to make my annual trip up to Lincoln to see college buddies so I'm itchin' to go up north.

However my wife really thinks I'm going a bit off the deep lately with this hobby. I don't know if I could push it as far as a road trip...

I guess I could say, "Hey, Jonathan just had a kid and he's in!!" j/k

I'll stay tuned though to see how it unfolds.

I would love to have some of you KC guys make it up. You might get some free lodging at Hotel Husker. Plus Nebraska plays that day/night @ Minnesota. I might have to get that playing in the corner.

My brother may be driving up from KC to help if he has the weekend off as well-free car ride-help carry a sub or two.

I'm hooking up the BenQ W6000 this weekend--more sweetness for the GTG.

I'm looking forward to meeting everyone. I'll arrange to have us some good BBQ and beverages of course for whoever can make it.


EDIT: Kwarny's DIY Rythmik updated on 1st page with specs.
post #28 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Yes, as mentioned under testing equipment we will have a DCX2496. I also have miniDSP and a Steinberg MR816x that I can use with J. River Media Center for parametric EQ, Linkwitz Transform, etc. One idea is to have the mains connected and 6 subs to the MR816x. The subs can each have separate EQ setup. We can then mute/unmute the subs while playing content and instantly hear the differences.

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

Ricci suggested that each sub be placed in the same spot. That makes instant comparisons impossible. Professional sub testers will sometimes place 2 subs very close together to make instant comparisons while noting that even with the subs placed as close together as possible and symmetrical, that still is a bit of a compromise. Trying to compare 6 or more subs without placing each one in the same spot is a very tricky proposition.
post #29 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post
Right now the GTG subs are a mixed bag, leaning heavily towards DIY
Only 1 out of the 12 subs is completely DIY (Klipsch Sonotube) . The MFW-15 subs are offered as kits from Motor City Custom Audio with cabinets and amp. You only need to load the drivers. The MFW-15 Turbos are available as finished units from MCCA\\Seaton Sound. Kwarny's Rythmik sub is also currently available directly from Rythmik as a finished sub.
post #30 of 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post
Ricci suggested that each sub be placed in the same spot. That makes instant comparisons impossible. Professional sub testers will sometimes place 2 subs very close together to make instant comparisons while noting that even with the subs placed as close together as possible and symmetrical, that still is a bit of a compromise. Trying to compare 6 or more subs without placing each one in the same spot is a very tricky proposition.
We do plan to have each sub EQ'd from the same spot for some of the listening. That won't accomplish all our goals, though. The idea you quoted is just one of many. Another would be to EQ several subs (probably not 6 at once) for a similar frequency response at one seat. A person would sit in that seat and we would rotate through the subs. We have thought about using a dual sealed, ported, and horn sub using the MFW-15 driver to hear how the alignments might differ. The goal would be to allow one to hear the trade-offs in maximum output, extension, efficiency, or audible differences. As with any GTG, time becomes the overriding factor and we may need to distill our methods down to something more manageable.

Another idea is to have multiple identical subs placed throughout the room (we will have four identical subs). This exercise would allow the listener to switch between identical subs and hear the difference that placement makes. Hopefully the content listened to will be the same or the test would be useless.
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