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Panasonic PTAE7000/ AT5000 - Page 2

post #31 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Video View Post

Maybe I am the only one not sold on 3D, especially with active glasses. Probably will have to wait another 4+ years for more content, passive glasses and 2nd -3rd gen 3D hitting the projector market. Besides, I like the square, industrial look of my 4000. For the money vs. features, it's hard to beat these Pannys.

I also prefer the 4000 industrial look
post #32 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

Coming from the <$3000 forums, I have to say I'm a little disappointed. I think I can speak for most of us less rich guys in saying that getting 3D and "slightly blacker blacks and an additional pop - dynamic look, to the image" is not worth $1500 to us. That's like buying two projectors. I'd rather buy the 4000 now and then buy a new projector in a 3 years with the additional $1500 as prices continue to drop and features improve. Don't get me wrong, for someone really interested in 3D, this seems like a great projector at a good price, but a LOT of us don't even like 3D (I personally avoid it). I'm afraid that Panasonic is going to alienate a large portion of its customer base. Now, if they were able to sell this projector for $2500, then they would own a large portion of both markets. I'm not hatin, just sharing the common man's perspective.

they would be smart to street price the panasonic @ 2.5 - 2.7k street. the low 3k street market is going to get busy with the Sony HW30, Sharp 17k, RS40/X3 and the upcoming 1080P 3D DLP models like the Optoma and Mitsubishi's due out soon.

if they hit this price point, they could sweep up the under 3k market.

I am curious how both those early previews said opposite opinions regarding the brightness in 3D mode.
post #33 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

I sure hope so. If they were to lower the price a little (and maybe offer a free bulb again), they might keep their hold on the lower price market. Companies get prideful though.

BTW, does anyone know if the 480 hz engine of the 7000 will affect game lag or motion resolution?


As far as i understand FLATSCREEN tech (not projector tech), the 240 hz panels were faster than the 120 hz panels, which were faster than the 60 hz panels. So hopefully the 480 hz will be faster than the old projectors.
post #34 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by willdao View Post

More from AV Forum's Phill Hinton in L.A:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/home-...l#post15111572

The cinemascope lens adjustment remains for the PT-AT5000 but speaking to the engineers it looks like it will not be available for 3D films in scope format. It was explained that this is because of the size of the screen and the parallax information, which at this time cannot be fixed, so to avoid issues, it will not be available at this time.

Am I reading this correctly? This means you cannot zoom and fill a scope screen on 3D movies?
post #35 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsantanni View Post

Am I reading this correctly? This means you cannot zoom and fill a scope screen on 3D movies?

Yeah, that's a major turn-off for 3D people! I cringe and bite my tongue when I have to watch a 'measly' 1.78:1 film, and I'm just talk'n 2D. Cinemascope FOREVER.
post #36 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

Yeah, that's a major turn-off for 3D people! I cringe and bite my tongue when I have to watch a 'measly' 1.78:1 film, and I'm just talk'n 2D. Cinemascope FOREVER.

Yeah I hate all that extra resolution too. I feel bad when I have to get my scaler to add fake resolution to the frame, then I feel better about all the money I spent on it.
post #37 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

The Epson 6500 measured around 5000:1 in best mode. Which would put it in the same category as the Sony AES30. Also the Epson LCD panels averaged higher ANSI contrast then any LCOS at the time.

I know this is not an Epson, but both used the same D7 3LCD chip.

I would also bet that this is a new D8 3LCD chip that Ekki hinted at. U can't triple contrast measurements using the same D7 chip which was already at it's maximum 2 years ago, and 480hz would also require a new chip.

Either way Can't wait. Getting rid of POS RS50 within the month and can't wait until December for the Epson equivalent. I know one thing for sure. I aint NEVER spending 7000.00 for a projector again!! and will never buy a JVC product again.

I still don't understand how a LCOS/(SXRD/sony) panel can have such a meager native contrast ratio compared to LCD. I assumed the mere difference in technology would be more beneficial somehow. It's almost like JVC is pulling of magic stuff.
post #38 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

As far as i understand FLATSCREEN tech (not projector tech), the 240 hz panels were faster than the 120 hz panels, which were faster than the 60 hz panels. So hopefully the 480 hz will be faster than the old projectors.

I have a 240hz samsung lcd and I can still see the lcd motion blur. The 240 helps the frame creation techology, but I don't know that it overcomes the blurriness that you see in lcd motion. Not sure if its the same with projectors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsantanni View Post

Am I reading this correctly? This means you cannot zoom and fill a scope screen on 3D movies?

I took it to mean that the mechanical switch from 16:9 to 2.35:1 wouldn't work and you had to do it manually. It would blow if you couldn't do it manually.
post #39 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

Coming from the <$3000 forums, I have to say I'm a little disappointed. I think I can speak for most of us less rich guys in saying that getting 3D and "slightly blacker blacks and an additional pop – dynamic look, to the image" is not worth $1500 to us. That's like buying two projectors. I'd rather buy the 4000 now and then buy a new projector in a 3 years with the additional $1500 as prices continue to drop and features improve. Don't get me wrong, for someone really interested in 3D, this seems like a great projector at a good price, but a LOT of us don't even like 3D (I personally avoid it). I'm afraid that Panasonic is going to alienate a large portion of its customer base. Now, if they were able to sell this projector for $2500, then they would own a large portion of both markets. I'm not hatin, just sharing the common man's perspective.

The AE4000 has MSRP of $2499 while its street price is 20% less. The AE7000 has a MSRP $3499 ($1K more than the AE5000, not $1.5K) so perhaps its street price will also run 20% below MSRP (or around $2.8K). As a new product it may be more difficult to find big discounts until the initial demand drops off.
post #40 of 1393
$2K was already a stretch for some of us in the poor man's forum.
post #41 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbaseuser View Post

I still don't understand how a LCOS/(SXRD/sony) panel can have such a meager native contrast ratio compared to LCD. I assumed the mere difference in technology would be more beneficial somehow. It's almost like JVC is pulling of magic stuff.

Sony has two lines of LCoS (SXRD) chips. The native contrast of the panels used in their flagship VW9000ES is about 20,000:1 or close to what JVC provides with their current entry level projectors (in a worst case mode with manual iris wide open and at short throw distances). However, the current Sony HW20 and the new HW30ES are their entry level SXRD models that use a less expensive to manufacturer LCoS panel that has a native CR somewhere in the 5,000:1 range (or similar to what can be achieved with the best LCD display chips that are made by Epson). Remember that Panasonic nor Epson advertise their native contrast ratio (which is actually in the range of 5,000:1 at best) and rather only advertise their dynamic on/off contrast ratio with the dynamic iris engaged and set to provide the maximum effect. However, such a setting for the dynamic iris is objectionable to many people since it produces visible issues on the projected image, such a pumping of black levels. Also recall that the Sony SXRD projectors have a dynamic iris even their entry level models will produce useable dynamic on/off contrast ratios similar to the best Epson models and probably a little better than the Panasonic AE4000. The JVC projectors have a high enough native contrast ratio that JVC sees no need to add a dynamic iris (just a manual iris to control the overall image brightness on the screen, which also does improve the native contrast ratio as you stop down the iris). I own both an Epson with a dynamic iris and a JVC and the JVC is certainly better overall when it comes to providing deep blacks while still maintaining bright whites.
post #42 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Sony has two lines of LCoS (SXRD) chips. The native contrast of the panels used in their flagship VW9000ES is about 20,000:1 or close to what JVC provides with their current projectors (with manual iris wide open and at short throw distances). However, the current Sony HW20 and the new HW30ES are their entry level SXRD models that use a less expensive to manufacturer LCoS panel that has a native CR somewhere in the 5,000:1 range (or similar to what can be achieved with the best LCD display chips that are made by Epson).

Interesting. Do you know which SXRD chip is used in Epson's new (hopefully soon to be released) lcos machine, the EH-R4000?
post #43 of 1393
I'm predicting.....

>At this price point, the new Panny will be a winner

>This thread hits 100 pages!


If the projector can hit half the advertised lumens once calibrated, that should be very nice.

Really want to see the noise level! Anyone see the specs on this yet? A Pdf of the specs is posted on another forum. Let's get that posted in here!
post #44 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by avswilier View Post

Are they continuing the AE4000?

We have plenty in stock 500+ and from my discussion, so does Panasonic.
post #45 of 1393
It depends on reviewer and setup (PC or Video Levels and white clip). Kraine measured VW90 at ~20K:1 iris off and open
HW20 at ~9K:1 iris off and open.

http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/266...PL-HW20-5.html

Kraine measured the Mits 9000 (same panels as VW90) at ~19K:1 iris open and IIRC our own TomHuffman measured the AVS sample in the same ballpark.

Cine4Home measured ~50% of Kraine's numbers. The post prod company I work with measured the VW90 at similar # to Kraine.
post #46 of 1393
Someone please provide a link to the PDF with specs.
post #47 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Interesting. Do you know which SXRD chip is used in Epson's new (hopefully soon to be released) lcos machine, the EH-R4000?

Epson announced their own "reflective LCD" device for the 4000. Have they announced a switch to Sony's SXRD?
post #48 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the first impressions are conflicting. 1 is say it's dark in 3D, the other thinks it was bright.

it's a nice looking projector. This MSRP price point is getting competitive. The Panasonic, Sony HW30, RS40/X7, Sharp 17k & the upcoming Optoma and Mitsubishi 3D DLP models.

If they did sub 3k street, they could own the LCD market and Epson would have to match with a similar projector/price point.

They weren't using your 2.8 gain HP screen! If 360 lumens works for you now in 3D then I'd be surprised this one won't.
post #49 of 1393
[quote=conan48;20753276]U can't triple contrast measurements using the same D7 chip which was already at it's maximum 2 years ago, /QUOTE]

With DI any CR, approaching infinity, can be obtained by fully closing the iris.

IOW, CR spec's quoted using DI are meaningless.
post #50 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Epson announced their own "reflective LCD" device for the 4000. Have they announced a switch to Sony's SXRD?

Sorry HHF, I was mixing the Epson up with the Mits 9000 which does use the Sony SXRD chip. Epson has apparently developed their own lcos ('reflective LCD') chip; will be interesting to see how it will do (they claim 40K:1 native, and up to 1M:1 with their dynamic iris turned on).
post #51 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Interesting. Do you know which SXRD chip is used in Epson's new (hopefully soon to be released) lcos machine, the EH-R4000?

Epson is making their own LCoS chips (they call this "Reflective 3LCD") and do not buy the chips from Sony (whose trade name for their LCoS chips is SXRD). The first projectors using these Epson LCoS chips are expected from Epson late this year (delayed from late in 2010). So far no other manufacturer has announced plans to introduce a projector using the Epson manufactured LCoS chips. Tests for a engineering version of the Epson LCoS projector from late in 2010 measured a native contrast ratio similar to the JVC and top of the line Sonys (ie., better than 20,000:1 CR). Projectors using the 7th generation of Epson's regular LCD chips typically measure in the 5,000:1 range for native CR. Panasonic has been using Epson supplied LCD display chips for the past several years and appears to still be the case for the new AE7000.
post #52 of 1393
FYI:

Evan Powell's Update 2 at Projector Central:

"UPDATE 2: After seeing a couple of demos of the AE7000 and AE4000 side by side, my initial impression is that the AE7000 is a substantial step forward in 2D performance, and worth a premium price well above the AE4000 even if you have no interest in 3D. We won't know for sure until we see them side by side in our own test facility, but the demo staged by Panasonic was compelling.

As far as 3D is concerned, the company has concentrated on reducing cross talk, and the 3D demos showed cross talk to be minimal to non-existent. Again, we will see what we see in our own test facilities shortly. Brightness is always a big issue in 3D, and it is no different on this new model. But overall, it appears from one day of looking at it that Panasonic may have quite a substantial product in the AE7000.

Evan Powell
Editor"


http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...0&entry_id=438
post #53 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

BTW, does anyone know if the 480 hz engine of the 7000 will affect game lag or motion resolution?

Per someone who was at the demo, the 480 hz is only used for 3D (240 hz per eye). 2D operation will stay at 120 hz.

Art
post #54 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

$2K was already a stretch for some of us in the poor man's forum.

Yeah. Same for me. I was on the fence about getting the 4k over a year ago and then I waited for something new to come out last year. We all know that didnt happen. Still looking for a projector upgrade. I would prolly go with the 4k if I must but if the 7k can be had for under $3,000 I'll take it and bump my budget up for it.
post #55 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yeah. Same for me. I was on the fence about getting the 4k over a year ago and then I waited for something new to come out last year. We all know that didnt happen. Still looking for a projector upgrade. I would prolly go with the 4k if I must but if the 7k can be had for under $3,000 I'll take it and bump my budget up for it.

What projector are you using now, Scott? Also how are the speakers coming along?
post #56 of 1393
Due to how my room is laid out, having a short throw ratio is important.

Do we know:

- If it can be mounted flush against a back wall (i.e. no vents on the back)?

- How deep it is (so I can calculate where the lens would be for the throw calculation)?

- Whats the min throw ratio (e.g. AE4000 is 1.36)?


Thanks all!
post #57 of 1393
Two questions:

Does the AE7000 get rid of that damn flashing PROCESSING message in the center of the screen?

Does it have discrete IR codes for lens memories?

If it fixes those things, I'm sold. If not, I'll wait another year.
post #58 of 1393
I just got back from the Panasonic Hollywood Lab facility in Universal City, as a guest of AVS' Daniel Hutnicki - thanks Daniel!

Panasonic's representatives from the Projector Business Unit in Japan were there to demonstrate the new Panny 7000/5000. Thanks Panasonic!

It was only about an hour duration or so, but here are some quick impressions. Art's blog already mentioned quite a bit that I won't bother repeating.

First stop was in their large screening room, where they have one large wall (30' across or so) which is all screen (1.0 gain white - Art mentioned 1.1, but our host for the day said 1.0). They started with an overview of the business, the work that the Hollywood lab is involved with, and a presentation outlining the new features and changes in the 7000. They then demonstrated some material with side by side 4000 and 7000 projectors, both shooting onto the screen wall - the screen sizes were modest, I'd say in the range of 80-90"? (16:9)

The 2D performance was an incremental improvement over the 4000 - ever so slightly sharper / more detailed, a little brighter (both were in Cinema1 mode), and slightly blacker blacks. Red hair was more red, perhaps due to the new bulb the 7000 uses.

As far as 3D performance - this was my first experience with a 3D projector, outside of a (non-home) movie theater. I haven't experienced the crosstalk/ghosting issue in person before, but based on my understanding of it, I didn't see any hint of it. I did see a very slight background "flicker" from time to time when I moved my eyes or refocused - not sure whether this is par for the course with the current state of the art. I didn't find it objectionable - but I'm not a huge fan of 3D just yet in general - my eyes want to constantly refocus, and at the theater sometimes I have to take off the glasses just to get my eyes to focus and then put them back on. The 3D mode was noticeably less bright than 2D mode - but not what I would call "dim".

They also showed some examples of applying 3D emulation to 2D content - they showed Astro Boy, and a non-animated military movie, forgot the title. It added some depth, and was interesting, but not really quite 3D. There are a number of 3D emulation settings that determine how the "parallax" images are spaced apart, but we didn't have time to experiment with those.

Q: What would the calibrated lumens be?
A: They couldn't say at this time. Art's review of the 4000, which was speced at 1600 lumens, came out to I believe about 430 lumens - so it will undoubtedly be less than the 2000 spec lumens, but we'll have to see how much less - hopefully less drop off than with the 4000.

Q: Is the light path sealed (dust blob issue)?
A: No, not possible with LCD, but they have done some tweaks in this area.

Q: What about the other projectors that Panasonic is releasing this year?
A: Can't really talk about them yet.

Q: How quiet is it?
A: Very - they speced 22 dB - I was sitting behind the projector sitting about chest high, three feet away, couldn't hear it. I could faintly hear the 4000 for comparison.

As far as the dual triggers - they briefly popped up some menu settings, which seemed to indicate they could be set up to trigger not only on power, but on aspect ratio change - so might support dropping down a second screen when the aspect changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

$3499 street price?

That's the MSRP - on the 4000, it streeted for about $500 less than the MSRP, so this one likely will also sell below street - although maybe not right away.

Bottom line: the 4000 was on my short list when I was projector shopping a few months ago, but I opted for a used JVC RS20 because I wanted to support a fairly big screen (136" wide), and I didn't think the calibrated output of the 4000 would be sufficient. If I was shopping now, the 7000 would definitely be on the short list - probably at the top. But I would wait and see what cine4home or Art's reviews say as far as calibrated lumen output before buying one, if you're planning a large screen.
post #59 of 1393
Thanks for your personal review Brad and have I told you how jealous I am of your day today?
post #60 of 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

What projector are you using now, Scott? Also how are the speakers coming along?

Hi!

I am still using my Panasonic ax200u that I've had for about three years now. Still on the original bulb too.

The uber speakers are still on the way. Hit a financial wall a couple months ago and now recuperating from that. Typical delays with a system as large and complex as it will be. Nothing new recently. I'm going back and looking at optional amps and digital crossovers now while I save up. I'll most certainly post any updates when they come and hopefully there will be something to post up in the next month or so.

Got my fingers crossed that I don't have any money issues again until these are done.


Brad - Wow! Thank you for that write up. Very informative.
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