Red Tails - Page 3

Can you elaborate on the highlighted section?

Okay, here I am with more movie war stories to bore you with again.

Interesting to hear your comments. I haven't seen it yet, and I should, although I fear I will be disappointed because of my prior experiences.

I was the aerial unit camera operator on The Tuskegee Airmen back in early '95, and I flew several fighters in my military career. It was the experience of a lifetime on this movie because we really went up in the B-17 and P-51s. My camera assistant and I flew in the B-17 using a 35mm handheld camera to shoot POVs of the P-51 from several locations such as the waist gunners and cockpit. We also had to dress in period wardrobe because there was a chase camera aircraft shooting the entire formation. We used an Arriflex camera (German-made) rather than the obviously modern Panavision camera just in case it was in sight to the camera ship.

The only problem with this shoot was the fact that the pilots who owned and flew the P-51s (yeah, all white guys in black face), had little or no experience flying formation. While doing the hero shot where the B-17 and Red Tails are seen in formation together the first time, the P-51 guys moved into positions that are not done in formation flying for safety reasons (wings overlapped and/or one aircraft positioned above the other). This is quite unsafe because the P-51 pilots are in a position where they cannot keep complete site of the lead aircraft, the B-17. Fortunately, the B-17 pilots and myself saw this immediately and had them move out to proper formation positions and still got the shots.

Aerial unit director and fabuous film pilot, Kevin LaRosa, had a rotary engine fomer Navy trainer aircraft there (can't remember the designation) that had tandem seating. He had designed a camera pod that would attach to an underwing weapon station on the plane. The pod housed a 35mm camera that faced forward. The back seat of the plane had a video monitor feed from the camera, and the on/off switch, etc. I rode in the back with Kevin, and we used this to shoot fighter POVs and background plates. I was just there to turn on and off and enjoy the ride, but Kevin let me fly it a bit, too.

The aerial unit shot for two weeks or more out of the Muskogee, OK airport until we got snowed out. I was kept on the principal unit as an additional camera and to shoot pickup work. The principal unit shot mostly on Ft. Chaffee, an innactive army post near Ft. Smith, Arkansas. (This was also the location for A Soldier Story.) The cast was very enjoyable to work with, and I find it interesting that some of the cast is the same in the two movies.

I know that I would find the CG aircraft performance a disappointment because their aerodynamic performance is always more like X-wing fighters than real aircraft once the dogfights begin. I just don't see the CG animators ever being able to capture the kind of realism you can with the real machines.

I don't know why this movie would be made (re-made?) unless it was just to showcase the CG.

On a trivia note, I came across the same B-17 six months later in DeMoines, IA at an airshow on a Sunday while I was there doing Twister. Amazingly, the volunteer flight engineer with the plane for that airshow was Gene Kranz of Apollo 13 fame. It was quite amazing to meet and talk to him for a while. Bill Paxton had gotten to know Gene Kranz while doing Apollo 13 (which was in theaters at that time), and was also quite surprised when I told him the next day on location on Twister that I had run into him there.

On a final coincidental note, one of our fellow pilots in the 162nd Fighter Group (Air Guard) in Tucson was the son of one of the Red Tail pilots. Small world.

I guess I'll get the lead out and go see this thing. Fingers crossed. Cheers.

Cam Man . . .

George Lucas discusses his reasons behind making Red Tails...

If you're in the LA area, try to catch it at the Edwards Calabasas Stadium 6, one of only a handful of theatres showing the movie in 11.1 sound (multi-channel heights).

Oh, I don't doubt there was "chanting" or singing involved. We sang songs during road marches, etc. when I was in the Army. It was the "style" portrayed in the trailer that seemed too contemporary for the era.

Thanks for the info, guys. I'm over in Tucson, but we have some very up to date and well maintained THX houses. I think I might be able to slip out to go see this it with one of my kiddos this afternoon.

The video was really interesting. It looks like they have done (or at least attempted to do) a good job with some realistic work regarding the view of the pilots while flying. Particulary convincing is the amount and character of the camera shake while manuevering. Making the light/sunlight and movements look real while faking it on a stage is really difficult. Getting the illusion of rolling and manuevering to be realistic is also really tough for non-pilots. Gimble rigs can be of limited value for this because 99.9% of the time, even in dogfighting, G-forces are symetrical, meaning there are not sustained forces that would push you to the sides of the cockpit. You are either squashed straight down in your seat in a hard turn or you are pushed up with less than one G while you push over to re-gain airspeed/energy. When the aircraft is rapidly rolled (often a snap it's so fast) into a new attitude, the pilot's head does momentarily snap the opposite direction. If you try to simulate a turning aircraft by gimballing a cockpit mockup to whatever attitude, gravity is going to pull the actor/pilot "downhill" making him lean that way...which is totally unrealistic and a dead giveaway.

When I did the second season of Jim Brolin's syndicated series Pensacola Wings of Gold, we used a cockpit mockup against a blue screen. We put the camera on a bungie-supported rig that would permit me to have three dimensional control of the camera movements. We would use the script to plan out the action with the actor/pilot and a USMC F-18 pilot tech advisor from Miramar. In a dogfight sequence we wouldn't move the cockpit much at all so as to not impart urealistic forces on the actor. Instead, I would manipulate the camera in a manner that was realistic...as I am uniquely experienced to know how it would look. I would coach the actor on how to pop his head opposite a quick manuever, etc. This was a rather low-budget approach to this, so we were limited in how much we could actually roll the camera. As long as we could limit the attitude to 60 degrees or so of bank, the end results were extremely realistic...and done fairly inexpensively.

Sunlight during all this manuevering is extremely tough to do realistically because it needs to be a really big light "moving" really fast, matching the roll and turn rate of the aircraft. The ideal realism would be created with a large ring/track on which a sizable light would be mounted that could very rapidly move about the ring/track over and around the cockpit. The mechnical challenges of such a device would be significant. The smartest way to get around this problem is to make sure that the fight is under an overcast in the story. And that is often done for that reason, and it's reasonable logistical license to take.

I'll watch to see if I can tell how they did all this in Red Tails.

Same

Caught it in 11.1 at one of the Auro-3D beta sites (Edwards Calabasas). The movie felt like a typical George Lucas production these days, what with the wooden acting and clichéd dialogue. On par with an afterschool special or TV movie of the week, but with big production values. The Star Wars-like dogfights, unrealistic as they might be, were a treat to watch (really puts you in the cockpit). The height effect was subtle for the most part, with a few noticeable moments where it was more obvious (e.g., last shot of the film). We were careful to find seats in the middle of the overhead speaker matrix. Trailers before the film appeared to have been upmixed to 11.1, since familiar ones were more immersive than they've sounded previously. Curious how this soundtrack will be delivered on BD.

how was the 11.1 sound? is it worth going to see it just for the sound? if not
i can wait for bd.

Probably a mix down to 7.1. Isn't that what is playing at 7.1 equipped theaters showing this movie?

The overall immersiveness was better than I had heard at any theatre, but the height effect is only noticeable in a few instances. If you're expecting stuff to be flying over you all the time, then you'll be disappointed.
I thought it was, but it depends how curious you are. This is the first 11.1 theatrical release and I'm the type that had to experience this bit of history first-hand, even if it meant driving to a theatre 40 miles away. Reading what other people heard just wasn't going to satisfy my curiosity. So off I went with a few members of my local HT group; we even had a couple of folks drive down from the Clovis/Fresno area and make a day of it.

I *think* the soundtrack is 5.1 in most theatres. Auro added another 6 channels for a total of 11.1.

Drove down to LA to meet other AVS members and also to see Red Tails in Auro3D with them. My thoughts mirror with that of Sanjay's. Movie and sound.

Here is what I thought about the Auro3D system:


I wasn't impressed with the overall sound design and mix but the Auro3D helped a bit. Hopefully another movie with a more aggressive use of the 11.1 channels will be a better Auro3D demonstration. That being said, I thought it was worth the trip to Calabasas but I just enjoyed hanging out with fellow AVS'ers.

Saw this film on sunday with a few of the socal (and norcal) guys at the Edwards Calabasas theater (the auro 3d test site).

Hmmm...I must say the dialogue was interesting...a bit cliche and corny at times. The story's execution was so so compared to that of the 1995 HBO film about the TAs (Laurence Fishbourne one). Still the film was at the least enjoyable for me.

The thing that bothered me the most though was the CGI. Something about it just made the dog fights seem unreal (just watch the trailers to see). My preference would be for them to use real planes but I know that would be IMPOSSIBLE to find that many B-17 bombers to use for the escort scenes.

Other than those issues the film was still enjoyable. A must own? Probably not unless its in the $5 bin.

Now to the sound, when the trailers started playing I thought the tracks were upmixed to use the 11.1 system since. For example, the battleship trailer was lot more immersive than I remembered and I've seen it several times at many theaters.

The movie itself though, being that it was the first 11.1 mix I got pretty hyped about it. I was expecting aggressive use of the "Voice of God" speakers but instead only a few scenes used em (to my hearing). During the movie I kept looking up at the speakers when some of the planes would fly overhead. Either the heights were subtle or my hearing is going out.

Like Scott said, the system has potential.

EDIT: It would be pretty sweet to have a film like Battle LA remixed into 11.1...I can think of a few scenes where the overhead speakers would be great (Bridge scene)

Watched it with the family and we all thoroughly enjoyed it. Much better than the trailer had me believe. It's a classic war movie with excellent dogfights not a "Saving Private Ryan". Will definitely be getting this on Blu ray.

Did anyone see that hour special on the OWN channel where oprah spent the day with Lucas at his house? I did because I love to see their "other" side, how they are at ease in their home and see where all their ideas come from and most of the time I get to see a good side of them we rarely see.

But in this case I saw a super Type A ultra control freak that makes michael bay and james camaron seem like easy going Eddy. The very 1st words that came out his mouth when they start to talk were on how he only likes to work alone and doesn't like outside help or consulting. Star was was a once in a life time master piece creation that worked because that "world" all came from his creation. But he has to realize that star wars was an exception and that other projects is not going to be like that and let others more competent do the writing or casting. If anyone has OWN, the ep is still re-airing about once a week.

^^ I thought it was one of the best, most insightful interviews I've seen with George. It raised my respect for the man.

The part about not liking people commenting on the work-in-progress: "It's not finished yet!"

I'll assume you know this but in order for a theater to be THX certified it has to use, among other things, THX certified equipment. The theater I watched Red Tails at is THX certified. When it opened about 12 years ago, that was a main selling point to get people in.

Ouch

http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag-red-tails/