iRule - Page 119

Steve, I haven't used the builder in a while, so I'm really starting to forget some details with regard to setup, but I'll give it a whirl.

First off, I'll assume that you're aware that the ZPR all zones device means that the command issued will affect every zone, if you're looking to control a specific zone, then you'll need to use the device set up for that particular zone.

Next, in response to setting up gateways for each iPhone, you don't have to. When you select the sync button on either of your iPhones, there's three choices,
1) sync w/ iRule builder
2) backup gateways and
3) restore gateways
What you do is set up the gateways on one iPhone, once that is done, you back them up, then on the second device you select restore. Ironically, my wife just got an iPhone and I couldn't figure out why it wasn't connecting to the gateways after I synced it, thankfully it didn't take me too long before I realized all I had to do was this simple step. It's a great feature, I've heard that other similar apps require setting up the gateways on each device, as opposed to this 'copy' (restore) feature. We have three i devices, and a fourth on the way, so I certainly appreciate it.

And lastly, (and I'm not sure on this, but i think it's at least something close) when/if you have a page setup, but not all buttons are assigned a command, I think you'll get the red or yellow gateway icon in the lower right, though the error message you're getting, I guess is a little different.

Do you have devices that haven't been assigned a gateway, or buttons that haven't been assigned commands?

I've been working with iRule for about two weeks now and am pretty satisfied thus far. I picked up a Global Cache GC-100-18R and a Digi PortServer TS16. I'm coming off having my theater controlled with a Pronto TSU-7000 and RF extender as my components are in another room.

The components are:

Pioneer VSX-84TXSi (RS-232 and IR)
Toshiba HD-A30 (IR)
Oppo BDP-93 (RS-232 and IR)
Sony VPL-VW85 (RS-232 and IR)

The main reason for moving to this solution is I've wanted to control with serial for some time, especially for 2-way communication. The Pronto solution is working just fine, but it's no longer feasible to maintain an IR only solution. I will probably work on remote lighting next, and start adding other rooms as time goes by. For now, the theater is my test bed.

Again, since I was coming off the Pronto, the editor wasn't as daunting as I can imagine a new user would feel. There was a learning curve, however, so take that into consideration. This is not a turn-key solution. Graphics (even in the default theme) need to be created, and codes will need to be learned. My recommendation to all newcomers: work on getting the devices in there, THEN make it pretty. I've had a number of issues with existing iRule codes for my devices. The HD DVD player is the only device I could reuse from my Pronto, or so I thought. The Pronto had truncated my HEX to short form Pronto HEX and not the normal long form, so they were unusable. And the device database for this device doesn't have any of the discrete codes and is also missing some undocumented codes I have, so I had to recreate the long form HEX. Once working, I moved onto the Oppo serial codes.

Not having worked with Serial protocols before, I downloaded the codes for the devices I would be controlling in this fashion. I also downloaded the devices from iRule, thinking someone else probably already finished it. Unfortunately, any shortcuts I thought would work didn't. The Oppo codes downloaded were all HEX and not ASCII/HEX. So, I had to recreate them. The Pioneer I downloaded had the ASCII/HEX, but no codes worked. Found out these codes had a trailing space which threw the receiver in a waiting state,, so I had to delete the trailing space in every command. Can't wait to get the projector hooked up.

On top of this, I decided I wanted to use DB-9/RJ-45 adapters. With the codes above not working, I had major concerns on how I was constructing the ends. Luckily, a regular and null cable helped me show where the problem lied.

I've sent one feature request to iRule, and that is the panel transition animation. Right now, it just seems to swipe back and forth, even if you click a link to a different panel. I've asked for a cross-fade, as my buttons on the right and left are pretty static, and a cross-fade would make it seem as if only a few buttons are changing.

Overall, I'm pretty pleased. I'll be more pleased when the iPad will become the primary controller for the theater...probably after the panels are complete and the macros are programmed.

Ed

Thanks Zellarman. I will check on these things.
- Steve

First off, I'll assume that you're aware that the ZPR all zones device means that the command issued will affect every zone, if you're looking to control a specific zone, then you'll need to use the device set up for that particular zone.

I don't know what this means. I am just looking at the database codes for the Xantech ZPR device in the builder. Are these the commands for the all zones device? I don't get it.

- Steve

I got rid of all buttons that don't have commands. I now have three panels, but only one has buttons. The one with the buttons has two buttons, to which I assigned Volume Up and Volume Down. Now when I go to that panel I immediately get the red icon and "Failed to connect to gateways". Prior to this it took about 20-30 seconds to get that message. Sounds like progress to me!

Thanks for any help on this.

- Steve

My name is Alex and I am one of the owners of uRemote in Australia, the company that has the exclusive rights to iRule in Australia and New Zealand.

Firstly, I wanted to apologise for the fact that it has taken us so long to introduce ourselves which has resulted in some confusion as to the relationship with uRemote and iRule. We have been debating the best way forward with Itai who is here in Australia with us at the moment so hopefully this post helps clear this up.

uRemote has spent a significant amount of money developing iRule specifically for the Australian and New Zealand market and has already developed a significant installer list across Australia and New Zealand. We have decided that we are taking the route of protecting our installers by deciding not to allow customers to buy the licence directly in Australia and New Zealand. In saying that, we are always looking for new installers to come on board and we will be having regular training sessions for uRemote in Australia so stay tuned to our website/Facebook/Twitter for news on new installation dates.

I understand that this will be frustrating to some of you as you like to do it yourself but we have carefully discussed and decided that this is the best way forward for uRemote in Australia. In saying that, what we would like to do is offer a special deal to anyone on this forum by mentioning the AVS forum when you call us. A full installation includes an IP or WiFi IR iTach and a uRemote licence fully installed by a professional technician that allows control of your entire home theatre on unlimited iPhones/iPads and iPods. As I understand, we are not allowed to mention prices on here so if anyone is interested, please give us a call on 1300 22 22 66.

I understand that it is possible to potentially buy a iRule licence by using a proxy but if this is done after this date, it cannot be guaranteed to work as software is being developed that will prevent Australian IP’s from syncing their devices to the builder software if they don’t have a uRemote version of iRule. This will not affect any iRule licences that have been purchased prior to today. We guarantee that any iRule licences purchased prior to today will continue to work indefinitely. I can understand how this may be viewed as controlling but I hope that you understand that uRemote has invested significant amounts of money into the product in Australia and we have to make sure that the investment we have put in allows the business to continue growing in Australia. I understand if some of you are determined to find alternatives to uRemote if the special we have offered is not good enough. I do urge you to reconsider because I have personally done a huge amount of research as well as having inside information on why uRemote is your best option. It is by far the most cost effective, powerful and easy to use solution on the market and given the ambition Itai has for iRule, it’s only going to get better.

I’m not sure why some people have said that we have not answered any emails, if this is the case, I would like to know about it immediately so we can rectify this situation. If anyone wants to purchase any Globalcache products in Australia, we have plenty of stock and are happy to provide you any equipment. If you have any questions, please send an email to info@uremote.com.au.

Hi Alex,

Thank-you for coming on the forum and explaining your position. I appreciate that you have invested both time and money in uRemote and that you must protect your investment. Having said that, I'm also disappointed that iRule has chosen to have a different business model for Australia.

I have an existing license and I understand from what you wrote above that my license will continue to work indefinitely, BUT, will I be eligible for updates as promised when I purchased my license? And, if there is a major update that requires a new purchase or payment of an upgrade fee, will I be allowed to purchase it?

I chop and change my HT gear at least on a monthly basis and so a packaged solution such as you provide just wouldn't work for me. If I cannot be guaranteed access to updates, especially two way communication which I believe is coming soon, then I will hesitantly have to find another solution. I hope that this is not the case.

Regards
Pat.

I agree with Pat's comments above. When I change equipment or want to update a graphic I just want to do it. Don't want to wait for someone to do it or pay - particularly when I can do it myself.

This makes irule a non-DIY solution in Australia..........I would have thought there was opportunity for both in the market place.

uRemote are protecting their investment. From today forward, they control, and get a slice of every iRule sale in Australia. They have stopped you and I from buying licences and programming remotes for our family and friends, even if we decided to do so for free. Only their installers will be able to program iRule in Australia and New Zealand it seems.

First Pronto and now iRule.

Cheers
Pat.

Forget major changes, what about simple change such as the addition of a new freeview TV channel? Back to uRemote technical department to get a simple icon added to one display.

I agree with your objections, this sounds pretty bad.

This development makes me very uncomfortable with iRule. I want a DIY solution. We haven't hardly heard from the developer in months. I guess I'll put iRule on the back burner for another year or so.

Alex,
I believe that you are wasting time and energy on a method to block the iRule sync for Australians/Kiwis. Any user that is determined enough to go to the effort of using a proxy to sign up for the DIY account is not a potential customer for you. Why block them, I would have hoped that you had done enough research to understand that DIY market and the turnkey market can coexist. During all your research have you been reading this thread? Have you read every post? Probably not, or it wouldn't have taken you since May to address Australian's concerns about iRule and iRemote. If uRemote is actually able to offer outstanding service and installation then, you should be able to run your business successfully without hindering the DIYer. You should focus on competing with the AMX/Crestron installers for the home user instead of the DIYer who will just move on to the next thing. Your business model, lack of response to people interested in iRule and the tone of your post will cause more business problems for you than the few DIY users who just want a license.


Regards,
Rob
A happy iRule customer, thankfully not in Australia (only for the iRule/uRemote issues, I'm sure Australia is pretty nice otherwise).

uRemote et. al.,

I am not in Australlia so this decision does not affect me. I completely understand your position, but I do not agree with it.

Once purchased, configured and delivered do you provide the mechanisms for a client to
make changes?

Will uRemote upgrade an iRule configuration of a client if the source data changes e.g. remapping of channels on a cable system so that channel icons properly work after the change? Will you charge for this? The A/V world is not a stable one like the toaster market is.

Do you require your installers to escrow configurations so that a user is not dead and having to start over when the installer goes out of business.

The above are more properly addressed to your installers, but you are the one making the decision to lock down iRule in Australlia to protect your installers.

Pronto initially neglected the DIY market on the Pronto PRO, which is IMHO the best dedicated remote ever made, but changed its position to utilize their talents to their advantage. I have 6 Pronto Pro's all given to me by Philips for the work I did as a DIYer.

Philips dropped the Pronto line as it was not a core business to them and Philips has a corporate model that does not support such a stand alone product. They could have integrated it into one of their other business units, but ultimately recognized they could not compete with the iPad/Android tablets.

You are protecting "Installers" from a very small group of people, who can probably help you more than hurt you.

I assume you will not be using any graphics that might be on the iRule site contributed by DIYers, but will write all your own from scratch or buy a full graphics library. If you do use either graphics or device files contributed by DIYers I assume you will find them and properly compensate them for their efforts, protecting your "ad hoc" suppliers properly. In a similar vein I assume you will not be using any information posted here unless you contact the author and compensate them for their "intellectual property"

All things I contribute or post on my site are covered by a copyright notice that restricts its use to non-commercial purposes only.

Lastly why not provide a DIYer license recognizing that they want full control over their configurations and enjoy the hobby aspects of building their own stuff.

This is disappointing. I understand the age-old battle between professional vs. DIY. What we do is too complicated for most people to DIY. So a developer has the choice between a small DIY market which can easily migrate elsewhere when better technology shows up, or go where the money is, with people who simply want a turnkey solution. It is unfortunate they have felt the need to choose the latter.

Those of us outside of Australia may think this doesn't affect us, but it does. When I chose to invest my money, and more importantly my time, in iRule, I thought I was joining a worldwide community of fellow DIY enthusiasts who would share insights, questions, and answers. I now learn that a giant chunk of the English speaking world has been locked behind a digital iron curtain. So long mates, and potential future mates. Perhaps we will meet in the land of open source.

Hi,
Does anyone know a problem with iphone that disconnects from the gw when the phone is going into sleeping mode. The problem is that when we re-connect the phone again it has lost its connection to the integra avr. The integra is connected as ip gw with its own ip adr. and port no. 60128. We have to cempletely restore the gw in order to re-establish connection.

The problem seems not to exist on a itouch.
BRDGS,
Jacob

Barry,

Very very very well put.

Jimi

Just wanted to say thankyou to our USA Brothers that have stepped up to batt for us Aussies ,

Unfortunately I see this out right disgraceful business practises A lot
over here with huge unjustified price inflation compared to the rest of the world ..
O well there is always the Australian owned company
http://www.commandfusion.com/ ....



FWIW Alex I sent your 4 emails over A 2week periode that went unanswered But now you have cleared up the reasons why: I Don't fit your business model so your Not going to wast time answering Emails where you can't charge me minimum $700au +..

I have just changed my system from a Control4 to IRULE, I could not afford to keep up with the cost of the new software updates, and the equipment cost. Control4 protects there installers as well. I am not sure what they are protecting them from....

There are many other home theater and home automation systems on the market that are proven and do a great job. These systems cost a great deal more money, and are very proprietary. They protect their installers! The other common statement is the systems are too complex for the average user and we don't want our systems getting a bad name because inexperience home owners mess them up.

The hole that I have seen in the market has been a good system that the average home owner can afford to step into home automation and home theater control.

IRule gives me control of my system, I enjoy doing the programming myself. My system will continue to evolve without me having to shell out $100 every time I want to make a change. The IRule user base here in the states will help drive this product forward because you have the entire user base sharing there experience, and the personal creativity in applying IRule to their systems.

I am sorry, I just don't buy the reason given for the Australian market. If the business model works here in the US, then it would work in other countries as well.

They have chosen to compete in the high end market against established installers and proven systems.

I have only had my IRule system up for a few weeks and I can already do more with it now then I could do with my Control4 system I had been programming with for over a year. The IRule system is working much faster as well.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is not going to happen in the US, especially starting with 2.0 and two-way compatibility. I saw on another forum (http://www.mpcclub.com/forum/showpos...6&postcount=59) that iRule is forking 2.0 into entry level and a PRO version, with PRO having the features most users want. As it is, the post says that the PRO version will cost more money.

I certainly hope this isn't the case, as many of us AVSers will be ticked. I am not paying a system config guy when I can certainly do this myself. I would like to hear from iTai and iRule directly regarding this.

Again, I hope I'm wrong.

Ed

Lets understand some things. iTai is devoting his entire future, well his immediate future to iRule's success. He does have a family to support. It is not a hobby with him any longer, it is his source of income!

When I was playing with the Pronto PRO I decided to write an app to control the music system in my house. It took me several months to get it right as the music server software was also changing. I finally decided to play software developer and offered it for sale for $29.95. I delivered it as commented open source so any one could read, learn and modify it. I sold 300 copies. The equivalent item, in a better version (IMHO) costs $9.95 on the iPAD and does everything my app on the Pronto did and then some. A $10.00 app will not feed a family for a year even if you sell 1000 of them. A $50 app won't do it either especially if there is more than one individual involved. There is overhead and expenses also to be considered.

iTai is doing what he needs to do to keep iRule viable. I disagree with the uRemote approach as I stated a few posts back. I still think there as a paradigm that will satisfy the DIYer and the protect the Professional installer.

As a point of fact though; based on many of the posts herein some of the iRule users may be tackling something beyond their ability. If it wasn't for many of us here they would be always on the phone to iRule support and iRule is probably not geared up to handle that too well. Please, nobody take offense it is just an observation. On the Pronto PRO forum the more senior of us always told beginners to read a book, read the documentation, learn how to . . . and the advice was generally followed. Fortunately there was a book and a very detailed developers guide. When advice wasn't and it became obviuous who was not putting in the time, we took the Amish approach of shunning and stopped talking to them.

Trying to assist someone when you do not have the same equipment is really tough! Some observe and describe better than others. Its just the nature of the beast.

One approach might be that the DIYer license restricts the user from using it for commercial gain. That is they are not allowed to develop iRule configs for others, for monetary gain. Hard to enforce but then again most licenses are. Perhaps mating it to the iDevice by it's Unique ID so it can only be used for a specific iDevice might work. Lets say $xx.00 dollars for the first copy and $x.00 for additional copies running the same configuration on other iDevices.

Itai should make money, and I hope he makes a ton of it. After changing over to IRule I've a vested interest in his success. I think he has done a great job!

If he needs to charge more for the application to make this a profitable venture he should.
I just have no interest in him getting $1 out of every $50 I spend, with a dealer getting the rest.

I'm in complete agreement with both of Barry's thoughtful posts on the Professional Installer only option for Australia and New Zealand.

In the end, I really think this will turn out to be a self-defeating strategy and limit the overall customer base in those countries. As Barry noted in this thread, we've already seen some DIY-ers who are in a bit over their heads. I think this is a base of customers that wouldn't immediately turn to a professional installer. But after some experience and realizing how much time and effort this can take, they may then turn to a professional for help. This agreement will eliminate these customers from the market.

It seems to me that a more creative approach could have been found that would allow the professional installer to protect their intellectual property while not locking out the DIY market.

Lastly, I'm also concerned that the software based controls on the iRuleBuilder that will be needed to enforce the described lock down could potentially disrupt service for customers outside the intended geographical areas.

Jeff

I suppose I should clarify my statement. I have no problem if iRule/iTai charge more for the Pro product. I'm more than willing to lay more money out as I do believe the Pro version is worth more than the product in its current form, which is also very valuable.

My concern is moving the Pro version to become an integrator product line only (much like what we're seeing in Australia right now with uRemote). I don't want to have that happen with the new 2.0 version and the fork that was mentioned.

I am more than willing to pay for the new version. I would be very upset if the new features 2.0 provides in the Pro version were Integrator only.

Thanks,
Ed

I started a thread a while back questioning the business model.

Itai responded there:

As for the business model:
1. There will be a pro version that will cost more but this will not eliminate the existing product. The pro is aimed at the professional market and the high end enthusiast which require more advanced capabilities.
2. We will add additional options that people can purchase for additional modules such as: iTunes, windows media center, Kaleidescape etc. These will be optional and offer enhanced capabilities.



Maybe there should be a three tiered approach:

Pro - tools to manage their client's configurations "in the cloud". The previously mentioned "escrow" so an end user is not SOL if their reseller disappears. Marketing assistance from iRule. License fees from each of their clients - either one time or as an annual subscription. Annual Pro licensing fee for top level tech support and marketing assistance.

Power User - For high end enthusiast as Itai described above. Enhanced access to tech support. Access to the full product with all functionality. Not allowed to resell services.

Pro and Power users should have free access to community developed components that can be added to the builder.

Pro and Power users can buy the add-ons that Ital mentioned. Pro guys get a rebate that offsets their annual license fee.

Basic User - Call it the existing product, maybe with limited two way capability added but not the full enchilada. Maybe limit the devices to common tried and true devices. If a non technical user gets in over their heads give them the choice to learn and grow and advance to the power level or hand their system off to a pro. No or limited access to the paid add-ons.

I really want this product to succeed. Control4 Crestron AMX yada yada yada, take a hike.

Thanks for taking the time to outlay your concerns.

Hopefully I answer them all although again I do apoligise if the answer does not satisfy you.

Existing customers prior to yesterday will be able to purchase any module or upgrade from iRule as per an American user. Obviously anyone who manages to proxy their way to an iRule account after yesterday will again maybe successful initially but the account will get disabled at some point in time.

If an installer does go out of business, there will be plenty of installers who will be able to use the existing account and continue on from the work that has already been done.

Every installer will have their own pricing structure regarding upgrades and updates. Obviously the big strength of iRule is that it is cloud based software which means that the installer can make changes without a truck roll which will make a huge difference to the costs.

As for using images that have been uploaded into the iRule public library, I would suggest that if you don't want them used then you should remove them from the public library because we cannot guarantee that they will not get used. Obviously we hope that our installers use the uRemote interface we have created for them but again, we cannot guarantee that they will.

In relation to the emails that apparently haven't been answered, can you please forward them to info@uremote.com.au and I will answer them myself.

Again guys, this was a difficult position to arrive at and I am genuinely sorry if it has caused you problems.

Barry, I'm in the same position as Itai, I'm devoting my entire future to uRemote's success and I also have a family to support and it is my source of income.

What we are happy to do guys is install everything for you and then give you access to the system afterwards if you are really keen to chop and change things which I completely understand. Please give me a call and mention this forum and we will offer you a good price.

Thanks guys

uRemote,

Your last paragraph will probably satisfy a majority of the newer DIYer's providing your price is reasonable. I assume when you (your installer) delivers a configuration it is guaranteed to work, and if for some reason it does not then any initial service call (truck roll) will be covered in the original price?

I for one would not but then I am not the normal DIYer. I am retired and have nothing to do but entertain myself. My hobbies provide that so I want to do it all myself. Then again I live in the USA so it is not a problem . . . yet.

Steve, are you seeing the different devices? Ie: all zones, zone 1 ....... zone 6.
I'm not sure how your system is set up, but the ZPR is capable of playing a different source in each zone at the same time with completely independent control of each zone, if it's set up with keypads and/or IR sensors in each zone, they're wired to one the ZPR's terminals for the specific zone they're in, and when you use a keypad or IR remote, this is how the ZPR knows what zone you're looking to control. Now, we're looking to use iRule, it's wifi based, you could be anywhere inside your house, or even close proximity outside, but how is the ZPR supposed to 'know' where you are? So, if you want to control zone 1, you need to use the device 'ZPR zone 1' and so on, OR alternatively if you're looking to simultaneously control all zones, if you're having a crazy bash, then you'll wan to use the 'ZRR all zones' device. This IMO is what actually makes the serial control even better, say the kids are listening to something too loud for your taste, you just go to the device for that room, and turn down the volume, or even shut it off.

Have you assigned the device(s) to the gateway?

Found a slight issue tonight with Ibuilder/Irule:

Using the "&" sign in a panel name breaks any link. Also link buttons wont execute any device commands if they are linked to a panel with the "&" in its name. I read and reread all posts in this thread and the irule website. Perhaps I am missing something but I did not find any reference to exclusion of symbols from panel names.

Anybody else have this issue?

Chaz

Maybe,

I messed up my system when I tried to add the name "Projector & TV" to a panel. It took me ages to sort it out without knowing exactly how I fixed it. But on completely rebuilding the panel I just named it "Projector" so perhaps it was the "&" symbol that caused it.

And no, I am not going to put it back just to prove that theory.

Graham