The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 55

"sub eq" = subwoofer equalization...

sure, since mcacc does not eq the sub... imo/ime, it's one of the major drawbacks of the pio, as the low frequencies are almost always the place that needs the most amount of work in a home environment... many people after running sub eq will complain "where did my bass go?", because the big ol' peaks they were used to are now gone (or at least ameliorated somewhat)...

imo/ime, that's the big benefit of the 4311, and it cannot be underestimated... the sub eq (and mains integration) of xt32 is well worth it...

Any other reason you'd choose the 4311 over the SC-55 besides Audyssey?

Oh I see, so MCACC calibrates everything except the sub? Why on earth would they omit that?

That's an excellent question and one that's been asked for a long time. MCACC really needs a refresh that includes sub eq capability - not having it is the primary reason I moved to a Denon/Audyssey solution.

other than my (possibly irrational) annoyance with pioneer these days, no, not really...

the 4311 will support 11.1 if you are into that... maybe a few other minor differences...

i am of the opinion (and gg will agree with me on this) that all avrs in a given price range, when run flat in a bias controlled test, are virtually identical... there's no "bad" choice* in this price range...

what sets them apart from one another is their room correction schemes... and that's where the 4311 separates itself from the pack... it's dsp is simply superior...

* other than an onkyo... quality control/customer service issues in recent times would cause me to stay WAY away from an onkyo/integra product...

So the sub eq part of Audyssey is really a deal breaker eh?

Very interesting.

So even though it's not THX certified, the 4311 should be able to drive my Paradigm Studio 60s/590 without issue?

I'm not playing movies at reference level of course, but I would like to "feel" like I'm in the movie.

Does the 4311 have OSD? (And how do you find the remote?)

yup... shonuff that...

although i had another reason for initially moving away from pioneer... i sold a marantz av7005 that i loved, simply to move from xt to xt32...

having lived with it for awhile now, it would be hard to recommend that someone purchase something else other than a 4311 in this price range, given what i've experienced in my room... and it's not like i had any shortage of exposure to mcacc... or xt, ftm...

yup. it is.

likely. it drives my salks without issue to as loud as i can stand it (usually -5db for movies, seating position 9 feet from lcr and 6 feet from surrounds)... if it can't drive yours the pio would not be able to either...

yes, it does.

to find my remote, i'd have to look in my "junk drawer" as i use a universal remote... imo, all oem remotes suck...

I think you articulated it perfectly. I've been combing through this thread (and others) and the biggest difference seems to be about the room correction. Something like if you can beat "the room" then you've got it made.

Seems like Audyssey (for the most part) wins this war.

I guess I'll go with the Denon 4311. Assuming of course it can drive my speakers without issue. (Though I'm assuming a receiver at this price point should be ok?)

^^^

yup... you are one big step ahead of the game by coming to that conclusion...

room/speaker interaction is something that many overlook (and some cannot be convinced of)... below 200hz, (where room modes start to come into play), and especially below 120hz (where room modes almost entirely dominate), "the room" plays a huge role in what you "hear"...

as noted in my other post, i think you should be ok... my speakers are rather difficult to drive, and i haven't been able to put mine into protection... i tried very hard to do so before i sold my bryston, just in case it wasn't up to the task... i DO have adequate ventilation, and my speakers are crossed at 80 to a pair of subs...

Agree completely on the importance of room eq and that has become THE differentiator between brands.

You should be fine with the 4311 and your speakers. If there is a power difference between the 4311 and the SC-55 in either's favor, it isn't going to be impactful in real world usage.

I really like the sound of my Sc 07. Just about ready to pull the trigger on an SC 55. I have an Anti-mode sub eq. How much more effective is xt 32 compared to the anti mode?
Looks to me the price difference is about $500.00 more for the Denon.
as always any input is appreciated.

zaxdad

FWIW, I agree with pretty much everything that's been said to you

I have my reasons for staying with the Pio AVR I own, but they don't enter into your decision. If it weren't for the price tag we paid to get Pio's 1st Ice amp flagship (MSRP $7K) & my need for lots of legacy connections, I'd be there too with the 4311.

The SC Pioneers have a whole lot going for them but they do lack sub EQ and that's something they do need to address SOON or fall behind.

If you really want the Pio SC57/55, there are alternatives for adding sub EQ that won't break the wallet:

-the antimode
-velodyne SMS-1 standalone parametric EQ
-find a used SVS AS-EQ1 audyssey-based EQ (recently discontinued by SVS)
-learn to use one of the Behringer units (steep learning curve)

or just get the denon

@zaxdad...

ime, a significant amount... my definition of "significant" may differ from yours, and i also am using dual subs...

i used an antimode with mcacc...
i still used it in conjunction with xt...
i sold it when i got xt32... it was no longer necessary...

i think the antimode is a great little tool, and it's one of the best purchases i ever made in a/v... so the above should not be read as a knock on the antimode...

also keep in mind the earlier comment i made (and bfreedma/gg's comments as well) on sub/mains integration...

if you call the avs store, the price differential might not be as much as you think... also, if you peruse the most recent pages of the 4311 thread, you might find that pricing on recent weekends at a certain vendor has been exceptional...

pioneer should have never ticked me off...

@steve...

how is the svs unit working out? you get a chance to play with it yet?

Well, I pulled the trigger on an SC 55. A large box store gave me a very good deal. 3 year financing and they're factory authorized. Should be here in a few days. One of the downsides to living in the sticks! Does anyone use the iControl app? I installed it on my ipod touch just to get a taste.

Hi Zaxdad, great choice you will love it. Yes I use the app and works great.

Mike....no problem....echoing Chris' statement, THX does make manufacturers prove certain performance parameters (i.e. 4 ohm performnce, reference level performance, etc). THX sound parameters hold little benefit for me however.

I think the 4311 would easily exceed THX Ultra2 performance parameters.

PS.... No such thing as a dumb question. There are however stubborn people who ask for, then ignore our advice!

:-D

Lots of good info here but I'd like to add these facts, for your consideration, to choose a Pioneer SC model. Factor in the different amps used in the SC series and that makes a difference too. Knowing the sound of both the Denon & Pioneer AVRs minus the room correction, I'd choose the sound of the Class D amps over the Denon's A/B amps any day. If your not into dynamic sound that socks you in your gut, or want that "Live" feel when you listen to music, then choose the Denon with it's superior RC. By the way, the MCACC does calibrate your system down to 63 hz, not below that. No big deal to me. Although, I'd like to try one of those stand alone Subwoofer room correction devices because I'm curious.

^^^

perp, as you well know, i have owned both an 05 and a susano...

yup.

yup. proven in my room with my speakers...

and yup. true dat... the only dumb question is the one that is unasked...

as noted in my previous post, i've owned pioneers with ice amplification, and was a huge fan... not to mention numerous other pios (gg, steve and myself all owned the previous pio flagship as well)... and with the possible exception of filmmixer, i think i've owned more avrs/pre-pros over the last 10 years than most everyone else (i can't help myself, i like shiny new toys )... i would like to think (and my posts over the last 6 years back this up) that i am brutally honest when it comes to assessing hardware, and it's safe to say that i am not subjective in those assessments...

as i have posted before, the susano remains the king when it comes to power and connectivity (and the front panel with the lcd may never be matched), and if pioneer had stepped up to the plate and taken care of their high end customers, i'd likely still own it... however, the 4311 (a100 in my case) is the "best overall" avr/pre-pro that has been in my room... the mere fact that i'm not in the market for the "next one" speaks volumes...

imo/ime/ymmv... as noted earlier, there is no "bad" choice in this price range (with the exception of onkyo/integra)... but there is a "better" choice...

i feel somewhat bad posting the above in this thread, as pio still makes fine avrs (sadly, they don't make fine "anything else", as i still bemoan the death of the kuro)... but they've fallen behind, and they don't seem to want to catch up...

Then again, you also have to make a decision on MCACC vs Audyssey? I've used both and for me MCACC wins in the SQ dept. Audyssey is too flat for my taste (mains & subwoofers).

I thought the RF remote was a $400 additional purchase for the SC-55 and SC-57's.

SC-55 and SC-57's come with an IR remote and not as much info., if any,can be displayed on the remote like the RF remotes can.

According to the SC-57 manual anyway. Yep.

A RF remote comes with the SC-37 and not the SC-35 or the SC-55, or the SC-57 or the SC-25.

^^
Pioneer doing a little upselling

on chris' comment, I'm not sure the issue isn't they don't want to change...perhaps its more what they decide to change.

MCACC is getting long in the tooth. Pioneer was the 1st company to offer room correction in an AVR & kudos to them for doing it. A number of years ago they added Reverb adjustment, then tricked it out with phase control & standing wave filters. But that was ~ 5 years ago now & there's been no further development. The only big change in DSP I see is adding Optimum Surround, whatever that is or does Since they don't rationally explain what it is & how it alters std surround processing, it looks like another gimmicky feature added to make the buyer think it's something special...marketing 101

Obviously, they decided to focus on class D amps and i-doodad control. They finally "caught up" with Denon, Onkyo on providing capability to do user firmware updates & network features. But that took them several years & owner feedback (ahem-complaints) to do it.

It's time for them to go back to "basics" & revamp MCACC or risk further falling behind Audyssey for a convenient 1-box system.

If they only added -

flexible X-overs by channel & more increments
EQ the subs

they'd not only be back in the game, they'd be ahead of it with the tweakability that MCACC has.

me either

the IR remote that comes stock displays no feedback data from receiver

before i fork out $400 for a remote, i would rather pay $499 for an ipad or $200 for an ipod

pioneer 'almost' got the icontrolav app right, but it can't totally replace the remote

Quick question guys, i understand the Pioneer is MCACC equipped.. hence there is no real world calibration through the AVR for the subwoofer... like the audyssey XT32 does it in denon or onkyo lineup.
The newer model of denon has tube amps integrated in their AVR's... and supposedly sound really good.
I wonder given the above fact, would you still consider Pio AVR's better than Denon.. just cos of IceAmps/Class D amps?
I have a DefTech Mythos ST series 7.1 HT system including Center 10, Gem XL for surround, and ProMonitor 1000 for the rear with a THT (Tuba HT) subwoofer.
And am looking forward to get a new AVR.
If the Pio amp is really that good.. i dont mind getting a standalone EQ like the Antimode... pls guide.

I don't think so
Denon still has solid state class A/B amps.

"Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post
Thar RF remote works with all the newer SC's."

Cause what bosko2 wrote, I wanted others to know it was 400 additional clams

Yep, no feedback from an IR remote.

Since the SC-37 has no OSD ( Volume, Etc. ) and I can't see the front of the AVR the RF remote with the SC-37 sold me at 880 NIB.

And yep, an 16G I Pad for $419 at the Apple Store is a good choice.

I realize this isn't a spotlight feature of these 2 high-end receivers, but can anyone comment on the quality of the headphone output of these? I'm looking to get one for other uses as well but interested in the headphone jack quality. Any commentary on it would be much appreciated, thank you.