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The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 71

post #2101 of 3857
1/25/12 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets42 View Post

Okay ccotenj. I know your extremely smart. But being a novice myself..it's certainly a fair argument worth having on a PIO board the sonic difference between SC-57 vs SC-37?
What's your opinion. Thx

i'm not extremely smart, but i did stay at a holiday inn express last night...

an "argument"? no. a "discussion"? sure.

having heard neither, but having owned a few avrs/pre-pros (including a sc-05 and a sc-09) over the years, i do have an opinion...

my opinion (which isn't a secret ), is that all avr's that aren't junk (and that starts a very low price these days) run flat and within spec, will be essentially indistinguishable in a controlled test... it is primarily 2 things that differentiate avrs, that being features (channels, robust amplification, "colored" dac settings , etc.) and dsp (primarily room correction)...

i grant that i may not hear as well as someone else does...

someone like filmmixer, for example, who has the bona fides (purty little statue) no doubt hears better than i... that, combined with an extensive posting history, has earned him the respect of having well-reasoned opinions considered, even though i may not "hear" what he does, and may not necessarily agree with him in the end... his thoughts can be read on this thread (and others) in several places...

not that you need to have an extensive posting history to have a valid opinion... but you do at least have to be well-reasoned... so far, your posts haven't really told us much other than you love the ice amp... you've been exhorting, not comparing...

look, i wasn't happy about it either, ice amps are part of the sc mystique... but you don't "hear" mystique...

for all intents and purposes, the new amplification section produces what the old one did... bench tests have shown that... enough "people i trust" own the units and have comments in line with the tests...

the dsp is the same... the feature set is essentially the same... watts are watts... etc.

given the above 3 paragraphs (and my "opinion" stated earlier), your posts are claiming what is referred to as "extraordinary results"... and "extraordinary results" require "extraordinary proof"... of which, you have provided none... all you've done is confirm your huge expectation bias for us...

clear now?
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post #2102 of 3857
1/25/12 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

Of course, this is not to say that the Elite does not look like a fine receiver. I am just looking for "flagship" output levels.

The days are kind of gone. The last 3 true flagships came out about 2008 and were:

Pio SC-09TX - discontinued
Yamaha RX-Z11 - discontinued
Denon 5308 - still available altho add $1K to get Denon's upgrade pkg to bring current to the version of Audyssey, DTS NeoX, & Dolby PLIIz in the 4311

There are no more. The SC-57, Denon 4311, Marantz SR7005, & Onkyo/Integra top model receivers etc are the closest things to a "flagship". The SC-57 tests close to what the SC-09 can do and either equals or comes close to the amp power that's in the Denon 5308 so you won't be missing much

If you truly need or want external amp type power, then use an SC-57 or Denon 4311 as a prepro and mate to your multichannel, monoblock, or combination amp of choice

People can & some do use AVR's as prepros.

Altho, unless your speakers are on the low efficiency side, like Magnepans, you should be just fine with the power output of the SC-57. Even Maggies can be driven fine with the power from former & present SC models.

What speakers are you using? How big is the room? How far away from the front speakers is the listening position?
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post #2103 of 3857
1/25/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

The lack of a "flagship" A/V model gets to the heart of things DonH50. I am looking to get back into things, but I don't want to purchase something that will get outperformed in the audio and performance end by receivers that are 10+ years old. I ditched my Denon AVR-5800 for a Tag McLaren AV32r pre-amp back in the day, after making the transformation over to active monitors. Now the numbers I am seeing on my old Denon is looking pretty good in comparison to what I appear to be seeing on the market these days.

Of course, this is not to say that the Elite does not look like a fine receiver. I am just looking for "flagship" output levels.

the "flagship" has sailed, and it ain't never coming back again...

not so sad in though, because (minus a few watts), today's $2k avr is "better" than yesterday's flagship... i have an denon a100 now... it is "better" than the susano, and WAY better than the 59txi was (and way better than the denon 5800, ftm)... it has plenty of "power" to drive a difficult load... and it's dsp is more advanced (which is what makes it "better")..,

avrs are application specific computers now... and as such, processing power (and the software/firmware to take advantage of it) is what you are buying... not big heavy cases and brass screws...

and as far as "overly robust amplification/power supply" goes... realistically, very few need it.... second realistically, if they needed more than today's $2k qvr can give them, they in all likelihood would need more than the old flagship would give them... look at the bench tests of the susano vs. the 55... we aren't talking a whole lotta spl difference there, and amp stability under load is similar...

so, if your old denon is looking pretty good to you, a 4311 would look REALLY good to you... and if you'd like to prove it to yourself and are anywhere near south jersey, i just happen to know someone who has both units on hand...

edit: as usual, steve and i are in agreement...
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post #2104 of 3857
1/25/12 at 1:47pm
Thanks ss9001 for the excellent and insightful post. Very good info in the details your provided!

My room size is 12 x 18 and I will be about 6 -8 feet away from the front speakers. I sold my former M&K Professional Powered speakers, so I don't have speakers at the moment. I have been researching Definitive Technology and Aperion. Looking at towers for the mains. I am used to a pretty incredible sub in the M&K MPS 5410p, and I am not seeing a comparable push/pull dual 12" sub option out there that is similiar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

What speakers are you using? How big is the room? How far away from the front speakers is the listening position?
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post #2105 of 3857
1/25/12 at 1:55pm
Hello, new member here. I am shopping for a home theater receiver, and the discussions here have been extremely helpful and enjoyable. I have a question, so I joined up, but did not know whether to post it here or in a new thread, so naturally I did both. My question is whether the VSX-52 offers video processing identical to the SC-55. If you want the long-winded version, please read this post: [whose link I find I cannot post because of jerk spammers who don't mind what they screw up and I haven't yet made 3 posts.] If you think you can help me or are interested, please find my recent post titled "Need info about video processing in Pioneer sc-55". Thanks everyone.
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post #2106 of 3857
1/25/12 at 2:00pm
The guy writing the bi-amp review is from Amazon and he is dead wrong I almost posted a response to that review telling him is wrong but it's not really worth my time.

I did get a laugh out of it though!!

Ignorance and arrogance in one review!!!
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post #2107 of 3857
1/25/12 at 2:00pm
Good post ccotenj. Actually, I distintly remember having buyer's remorse after purchasing the Denon 5800. I was running it with professional M&K 2510's and 2525's, and I remember feeling that this isn't quite what I was expecting. Perhaps it was because of how expensive these components were back in the early 2000's?

I sold the Denon for a $500 loss, purchased powered speakers and picked up the Tag McLaren. It has been a long time since then, but looking at the specs alone, 170 Watts x 7 channels looks pretty good.

I will look into the newer Denon offerings, including the 4311. I also have been looking at the Marantz, but I keep getting drawn to the ultra expensive McIntosh amplifiers when looking at seperates.

Thanks



Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

the "flagship" has sailed, and it ain't never coming back again...

not so sad in though, because (minus a few watts), today's $2k avr is "better" than yesterday's flagship... i have an denon a100 now... it is "better" than the susano, and WAY better than the 59txi was (and way better than the denon 5800, ftm)... it has plenty of "power" to drive a difficult load... and it's dsp is more advanced (which is what makes it "better")..,

so, if your old denon is looking pretty good to you, a 4311 would look REALLY good to you... and if you'd like to prove it to yourself and are anywhere near south jersey, i just happen to know someone who has both units on hand...
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post #2108 of 3857
1/25/12 at 2:30pm
^^^

y'know... since you've had good experience with active speakers, have you considerd seaton catalysts? i pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't be lacking for dynamics with those...

edit: not sure what your speaker/sub budget is, but 5 seaton sparks and a submersive (even better, 2) would not suck... team that up with a 4311 to act as the pre (or a sc55 with external sub eq), and that would be one kicking sytem...
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post #2109 of 3857
1/25/12 at 3:33pm
Or JTR speakers.
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post #2110 of 3857
1/25/12 at 4:14pm
Used jbl lsr28s can be had for a song.
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post #2111 of 3857
1/25/12 at 5:13pm
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and suggestions with me. This thread in particular has given me some good info and options to look into. I will look into those speakers as possibilities. The Seatons in particular sound like it may hold some good promise.

Thanks again
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post #2112 of 3857
1/25/12 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

. I don't believe any of the Ice amp SC models reviewed by HomeTheater gave them excessive distortion, shutdown or sagged on power output at 4 ohms. Makes one wonder how Audioholics experienced what they claimed.

I suppose since home theater seems to only measure at 1 kHz and audioholics did 20 to 20KHz that might be a difference

Did you ever. Look at an ice power data sheet and look at thd at higher freq?

http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com...asheet_1_0.pdf

The point is that the ice power amps were not universally accepted as being fantastic
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post #2113 of 3857
1/25/12 at 7:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

The lack of a "flagship" A/V model gets to the heart of things DonH50. I am looking to get back into things, but I don't want to purchase something that will get outperformed in the audio and performance end by receivers that are 10+ years old. I ditched my Denon AVR-5800 for a Tag McLaren AV32r pre-amp back in the day, after making the transformation over to active monitors. Now the numbers I am seeing on my old Denon is looking pretty good in comparison to what I appear to be seeing on the market these days.

Of course, this is not to say that the Elite does not look like a fine receiver. I am just looking for "flagship" output levels.

Others more competent have provided excellent answers. I will offer my opinions:

1. A Pioneer SC-57 or Denon 4311 (I would probably get the latter) will trounce most old gear because modern DSP takes care of speaker-room interaction, the biggest detriment to good sound IMO. This despite "old iron" and big AB amps in previous flagships. Sad fact is, very few need the power most average, let alone TOL, AVRs can deliver.

2. I have participated in many amp sessions over the years. Whilst it is pretty easy to pick out tube from SS, it is much harder to distinguish an expensive SS monoblock (think Krell, Levinson) from a decent middling amp (Emotiva). When pushed, yeah, but 90 (or maybe 99) percent of the time, not.

3. From 85 W to 170 W looks like a lot on paper but does not sound like a lot. That is 3 dB, a noticeable but very small change in ludness to most people. And, that 3 dB is extra headroom at the very loudest levels, where you (anybody) are unlikey to hear it.

4. I am using my Pioneer SC-27 as a pre/pro to a couple of Emotiva amps to drive my old Magnepans. There is virtually no difference in sound using the Pioneer. I will note there was a noticable difference from my Sony ES (I later did the research I should have done earlier and found the Sony is one of those that does lose lots of power driving all channels, and did not like a 4-ohm load at all).

5. All this is to say IMO power numbers alone don't tell the whole story. Modern equipment has a lot of features that really improve the listening experience.

At least for me, and perhaps for you.

HTH - Don
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post #2114 of 3857
1/26/12 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

I suppose since home theater seems to only measure at 1 kHz and audioholics did 20 to 20KHz that might be a difference

Did you ever. Look at an ice power data sheet and look at thd at higher freq?

http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com...asheet_1_0.pdf

The point is that the ice power amps were not universally accepted as being fantastic

Nothing is universally accepted as being fantastic.

The point is that the SCO7 wasn't tested correctly. From what i've read, you don't test class D amps that way. They're different from AB amps.
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post #2115 of 3857
1/26/12 at 10:00am
^^
plus, if the Ice amps had glaring deficiencies, ones that made them less attractive to "audiophile" types, why would companies that market to the "audiophile" crowd, like Bel Canto, NuForce, Red Dragon Audio, Wyred4Sound, base entire amp product lines on them?

all amp designs have specific areas where they have weaknesses, real or perceived this isn't limited to class D amps or Icepower modules.

Take class A or big power tube amps. They have the best "reputation" for optimum audio qualities yet are room heaters with 50-60+% of incoming electricity wasted as heat, weigh & cost a ton for the humongous transformers and caps needed. It'd be neat to own a Pass Labs, McIntosh or even Krell but ain't happening in my budget. Think how much $$ it would cost to buy 1000 watts of pure class A power from one of those companies. By comparison, an Ice 1000ASP based amp can be had very at a very reasonable cost.

Distortion...some of these highly respected companies & tube amp mfgs rate these amps not at 0.01% THD, not 0.5%, but at 1%! And people are quibbling about the difference between Ice amps & the new IR design Pioneer now uses

splitting hairs time. Sure, the new class D amp has less distortion on paper in the near-linear area but it still rises faster than class a/b & is it really a significant audible difference for 99.999% of listeners?

I've seen the curves, yes the distortion rises quicker on Ice amps as power approached the upper design limit than both conventional a/b amps & the new Pioneer class D amp. Splitting hairs questions -

1) is the lower distortion in the flat area audible? Can you really hear the difference between 0.01 & 0.05% for instance? proof please...

2) is that rise in distortion that audible when power spikes last fractions of seconds?

3) how many times is the load actually going to be at the max rated output & for how long - milliseconds, seconds or minutes? Hint, it isn't going to be minutes, seconds maybe

For the vast majority of the time, the amp will be in the very low distortion area just like it would be for comparable class a/b amp. And for those of us aging folks, especially if there's mild tinnitus, any perceptible difference in distortion at high frequencies is lost anyway
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post #2116 of 3857
1/26/12 at 4:31pm
A+++ on the "new hardware trumps old" comments. When I got my 72TXV back in '06 I figured I was... well, they used to call it "da bomb," but obviously they don't anymore. At any rate, three years later when I'd had a few... more than a few... glasses of wine I generously held forth on how brilliant my room eq was.

I was greeted with blinks, and then sly smiles.

"Really? You mean like my [consumer grade] receiver?"

"And mine."

"And mine."

I was, as they say, "disappoint."
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post #2117 of 3857
1/26/12 at 4:44pm
^^^^^

Wow there I'm on board here

I was originally responding to this

"The Pio Sc-37 received RAVE reviews which is why I purchased my first Pio receiver in the first place. Amps make all the difference in audio equipment!
Where are the sc-57 rave reviews??"

Which is not completely true.

You may not agree with the audioholics test but it still a valid test and not a rave review

Does it make a audible difference, don't know, there were some other things in the ice power amp data sheet that was interesting

Personally I would say anyone who perceives a huge difference in amps of this price range is not being honest with themselves

And this would certainly apply to the sc37 vs sc55

Is it possible that some will prefer the ice amps? Of course not everyone likes a change and not all changes are for the better.

But pioneer has elected to go forward with class d using a different approach.

Was this for sound reasons, cost , politics? It may have involved all of those factors.
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post #2118 of 3857
1/26/12 at 5:55pm
However, if you can't it's certainly not hurting. The shorter signal path may be of value just as people used to say this is what helped chip amps with their brand of sound.

I have pioneer ICE, had B&O ICE in NHT Power5, and I will probably pick up an IR digital when they dip down on the used market. This is just to say that I feel they are still moving forward.

It also is not unreasonable to think that it may be for both cost and quality reasons as technology improves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
plus, if the Ice amps had glaring deficiencies, ones that made them less attractive to "audiophile" types, why would companies that market to the "audiophile" crowd, like Bel Canto, NuForce, Red Dragon Audio, Wyred4Sound, base entire amp product lines on them?

all amp designs have specific areas where they have weaknesses, real or perceived this isn't limited to class D amps or Icepower modules.

Take class A or big power tube amps. They have the best "reputation" for optimum audio qualities yet are room heaters with 50-60+% of incoming electricity wasted as heat, weigh & cost a ton for the humongous transformers and caps needed. It'd be neat to own a Pass Labs, McIntosh or even Krell but ain't happening in my budget. Think how much $$ it would cost to buy 1000 watts of pure class A power from one of those companies. By comparison, an Ice 1000ASP based amp can be had very at a very reasonable cost.

Distortion...some of these highly respected companies & tube amp mfgs rate these amps not at 0.01% THD, not 0.5%, but at 1%! And people are quibbling about the difference between Ice amps & the new IR design Pioneer now uses

splitting hairs time. Sure, the new class D amp has less distortion on paper in the near-linear area but it still rises faster than class a/b & is it really a significant audible difference for 99.999% of listeners?

I've seen the curves, yes the distortion rises quicker on Ice amps as power approached the upper design limit than both conventional a/b amps & the new Pioneer class D amp. Splitting hairs questions -

1) is the lower distortion in the flat area audible? Can you really hear the difference between 0.01 & 0.05% for instance? proof please...

2) is that rise in distortion that audible when power spikes last fractions of seconds?

3) how many times is the load actually going to be at the max rated output & for how long - milliseconds, seconds or minutes? Hint, it isn't going to be minutes, seconds maybe

For the vast majority of the time, the amp will be in the very low distortion area just like it would be for comparable class a/b amp. And for those of us aging folks, especially if there's mild tinnitus, any perceptible difference in distortion at high frequencies is lost anyway
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post #2119 of 3857
1/26/12 at 6:05pm
Finally some great discussions which is what this board is for... Fair and Balanced is always appreciated. cconej good points your making but some of your credit needs to take a back seat since you don't own a Sc-37 or Sc-57 with all due respect. I am more interested in what owners think about the ice amps compared to the new Pio amps. Like I said I have both. And in my opinion strictly my opinion the ice amps sound warmer.
The Sc-37 received some of the best reviews a receiver can get and the sc-57 I haven't read one excellent review yet!
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post #2120 of 3857
1/26/12 at 6:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets42 View Post

I bought the new SC-57 for the purpose of comparing the sound difference of my current SC-37. I used a high end pair of Joseph Audio speakers. If the SC-57 sounded better then the SC-37 I would keep it and sell my 37 to a friend.
After careful evaluation.. Listen to multiple sources CD's, blu rays, etc...
The SC-37 was a much warmer receiver and I have to hand it to the ICE AMPS!
It's not a mistake that the SC-37 received STELLAR reviews and the SC-57 NOTHING!!

LOL, I'll take the SC-37 over the SC-57 any day.

No I wrote that, wait for it............... here comes the Pioneer sales fan boys spewing "masturbatory thread posts" as one of them wrote it so eloquently a short time ago.

I'm surprised 3 or 4 of them, that hang here together haven't jump on your A****** by now.

37 rules, LOL
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post #2121 of 3857
1/26/12 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets42 View Post

Finally some great discussions which is what this board is for... Fair and Balanced is always appreciated. cconej good points your making but some of your credit needs to take a back seat since you don't own a Sc-37 or Sc-57 with all due respect. I am more interested in what owners think about the ice amps compared to the new Pio amps. Like I said I have both. And in my opinion strictly my opinion the ice amps sound warmer.
The Sc-37 received some of the best reviews a receiver can get and the sc-57 I haven't read one excellent review yet!

Again, for numerous reasons, "I'll take the SC-37 over the SC-57 any day."

Tried a 57 own a 37.

Since I'm in their thread 57 owners and non owner fan boys, I'll expect a classy decorum to follow.

All in fun boys and girls.
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post #2122 of 3857
1/26/12 at 6:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets42 View Post

Finally some great discussions which is what this board is for... Fair and Balanced is always appreciated. cconej good points your making but some of your credit needs to take a back seat since you don't own a Sc-37 or Sc-57 with all due respect. I am more interested in what owners think about the ice amps compared to the new Pio amps. Like I said I have both. And in my opinion strictly my opinion the ice amps sound warmer.
The Sc-37 received some of the best reviews a receiver can get and the sc-57 I haven't read one excellent review yet!

I've owned the SC09, SC 27, SC 37 and SC 57.

IMO the 57 was a step up in clarity imaging and smoothness.

While I have only read one American mainstream review (and it was by a fairly old school audiophile type who clearly doesn't like digital amps as a whole) that was mainly positive, it appears you are looking for some kind of validation for your opinion.

There was a respected German publication which gave the 57 what I would call a rave, along with what I consider measurements showing a fairly substantial difference in harmonic distortion between the Ice Amp models vs the D3's (which Pioneer partially attributes to the lack of, and lack of need for, a feedback circuit in the new design.)

You don't need reviews to tell you what you hear.

You like te 37 better.

I liked the 57 better.
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post #2123 of 3857
1/26/12 at 7:00pm
Meh. I moved up from an '06 Elite. I'm plenty happy with my 57. I literally drop my jaw over the stuff I hear now, and I'm a ridiculously jaded audiophile. Even my wife, who previously used to make fun of me as an audio nerd, will come down stairs to listen. Just listen. They did good, as far as I'm concerned.
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post #2124 of 3857
1/26/12 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets42 View Post

Finally some great discussions which is what this board is for... Fair and Balanced is always appreciated. cconej good points your making but some of your credit needs to take a back seat since you don't own a Sc-37 or Sc-57 with all due respect. I am more interested in what owners think about the ice amps compared to the new Pio amps. Like I said I have both. And in my opinion strictly my opinion the ice amps sound warmer.
The Sc-37 received some of the best reviews a receiver can get and the sc-57 I haven't read one excellent review yet!

do you really think that i don't have the experience necessary to comment on this subject?

what exactly do "reviews" have to do with it? we've seen the graphs... we know how the amplifiers perform... as noted by many of who us understand what we are looking at, the amplifiers are essentially equal... there'd be no "audible" difference between them...

or are we going to delve into the fantasy world of "amplifier sound"? because if we are, you are going to have to bring a lot more to the table than "it sounds warmer" (even if one doesn't consider your previous posts)...
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post #2125 of 3857
1/26/12 at 7:03pm
DScottJ: Which Elite did you have? I have the VSX-74TXV..thinking of moving up
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post #2126 of 3857
1/26/12 at 7:10pm
^^^

i believe he mentioned earlier he had a 72, but i'm not sure...

you would find the 55/57 a big improvement over the 74... the dsp in today's unit is significantly better...

not to mention all the other goodies, like modern video switching, etc.
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post #2127 of 3857
1/26/12 at 7:42pm
Mine is better than yours and blah, blah, blah. Most guys on these forums can't tell the difference anyway, just the experts. I had the 37 and now have the 57. The difference in SQ, I don' know as I use them for a pre pro with my Sunfire Grand Cinema amps (2 of them for 9 sets of speakers). I like the 57 as I can use the app on my iPad for fine tuning any movie that I watch. Just wish that Pioneer did make a prepro.

Bill
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post #2128 of 3857
1/27/12 at 12:13am
I just bought the LX75. It sounds quite nice but lacks a bit in power in the low end. It would have been a decent amp if it didn't keep giving 'AMP Error' which is apparently a serious internal amplifier error.

Would try another one but I simply do not trust Pioneer not to give me another broken one and the sound quality was no better than Denon IMO so why not just buy a unit that will actually work instead of wasting time on another possible dead unit.
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post #2129 of 3857
1/27/12 at 3:33am
jpeter: it was the VSX-72TXV, one step down from yours. There may or may not be a huge difference between the 37 and the 57 (or the 07, etc. etc.), but IMO there's a very huge difference between my 72TXV and the 57. I find the sound smoother, much more precise, and the imaging is just staggering with two channel sources. It did a much better job integrating my center channel, to the point that I now have a seamless sound stage up front when watching movies. It's especially evident when I watch a concert in 5.1. I'm still trying to work out the absolute best way to stream music to it, but so far am very pleased with that part as well.

I got the "36 months same-as-cash" deal at the local Best Buy, so I'm only paying about $60/mo and not getting charged any interest. A complete and total win, as far as I'm concerned.

If you're thinking about pulling the trigger, go for it. It's got six years of technology on the one you have. You can sell your 74 on ebay for a surprising amount of $... ebay says my 72 averages $250 or so.
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post #2130 of 3857
1/27/12 at 4:14am
Hello, is it possible to bypass the video processing with the SC-57?

Thanks!
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread