The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 103

Originally Posted by Kurolicious

Keep in mind, your sub is still playing bass with music if the speakers are set to Small and crossed at 80hz. All you're doing is redirecting bass from the mains to the sub.

Originally Posted by ccotenj

"plus" is almost never the "best" setting to use, regardless of what the pio rep said...

Originally Posted by jimjr

Are you sure? I thought pure direct turned off all processing including bass management. That's why the sub seems to be effectively shut off in SW mode when running the pure sound fields. But I could be wrong. The manual is not well written.

Originally Posted by jimjr

Suppose you want to listen to two-channel music in pure direct mode but still want your subwoofer to receive a bass signal?

Originally Posted by jimjr

Suppose you want to listen to two-channel music in pure direct mode but still want your subwoofer to receive a bass signal?

Originally Posted by ccotenj

why are you so obsessed with pure direct?

if you are trying to get around mcacc for 2 channel (questionable strategy at best), simply create a mcacc memory with all neutral settings and run in either stereo or direct mode...

Originally Posted by Kurolicious

If your speakers are set to Small and crossed at 80hz, your sub is always playing bass below the crossover.

Read the footnotes regarding the Plus setting - "This may not, however, yield the best bass results. Depending on the speaker placement of your room you may actually experience a decrease in the amount of bass due to low frequency cancellations."

Originally Posted by jimjr

Why are you so snotty in your responses? I'm just trying to figure out how the control was designed to operate so I have a starting point for my configuration. If you don't know, have the courage to say so.

Originally Posted by ccotenj

ok, good luck...

Originally Posted by Kurolicious

I agree. He asks us for help and then doesn't believe anything we tell him.

Originally Posted by jimjr

Now that is not exactly fair. I have indeed asked for help and I actually take what you are saying seriously. I was simply hoping for a little more foundation than "trust us, that's how it works." I did get a more fulsome explanation from Pioneer, and it wasn't the same explanation you gave.

Originally Posted by Kurolicious

It's been our experience that poineer call center reps don't always provide the most accurate information. Let me try to clarify something. You seem to be confusing a processing setting with a system setting. AutoSurround, Direct, Pure Direct are processing modes. A System Setting would be sellecting Small or Large for the speakers, crossover, channel levels.

When you run Full Auto MCACC, the AVR typically sets speakers as large. In this case, 2 channel music would not have any bass going to your sub because you're telling the AVR to send full range frequencies to your mains. That's why you're not hearing your sub.

Originally Posted by ccotenj

"plus" is almost never the "best" setting to use, regardless of what the pio rep said...

what exactly is it you are trying to accomplish? it's hard to tell from all the posts going back and forth...

Originally Posted by jimjr

Possibly. Not completely sure though. If you look on page 45, where the manual describes the the difference between PURE and PURE DIRECT, it states: "With DIRECT, the only modifications added to PURE DIRECT playback are calibration of the sound field by the MCACC system and Phase Control effect. . . . PURE DIRECT plays back unmodified sound from source with only minimal digital treatment." I am unsure whether the "MCACC System" includes bass management because if it does, there is the possibility that bass frequencies could be cut off to the subwoofer when running PURE DIRECT and I'm trying to figure out if the PLUS control will keep the subwoofer active at all times. I just don't know

I think I'll contact Pioneer and see if they can get me something fully describing the PLUS mode.

EDIT: Spoke to Pioneer. Tech confirmed that the only way to guarantee getting the sub to activate with all sources is to engage PLUS mode, which bypasses everything else going on in the system and puts out a consistent low frequency signal to the sub that is not affected by bass management. It isn't a full range signal, like you can get from the speaker terminals -- it is a bass signal only, although he did not know what the high frequency cut-off was. Apparently Pioneer doesn't publish it.

For what it's worth, Pioneer's knowledge base actually proved marginally useful and seemed to confirm that the sub can be cut out with certain source material unless PLUS is used. One Q&A from the website:

"No subwoofer output with 2 channel sources.

[Q:] I setup the receiver and I had the subwoofer when I would listen to a 2 channel source, like a CD. I then ran the MCACC setup, for my Home Theater. Now when I listen to the 2 channel source, I no longer get the subwoofer to work.

[A:] The MCACC software will take readings and set the system to settings it thinks are the best.
After performing the MCACC setup, you should go into the receiver and make fine adjustments.

Press the receiver button, located underneath the display window.
Press the setup button, located on the right side of the remote (near the middle).
Arrow down to highlight Manual SP Setup and press enter.
Highlight Speaker Setting and press enter.
Arrow down to highlight subwoofer.
Arrow to the right to set the subwoofer to PLUS.
Press return and then press the setup button to exit.

With this change, the subwoofer will output sounds from all sources.
You may also need to make adjustments to the Channel Level to set the speaker levels to your liking."

Originally Posted by mkdahiya

well, when listenning to stereo sound, I wish to keep the SUB on all the time even in PURE DIRECT mode, as the sound output is not very filling without SUB. In absence of SUB, the music sounds crips but don't deliver that punch as you would expect from a stereo channel with SUB on.

Originally Posted by purdyd

Yes pure direct turns sub off unless it Is set to plus

Or you can turn sub to off and run the sub off the front pre outs

Originally Posted by jimjr


Thanks. This is starting to make some sense.

Two channel audio sounds best in my set up in pure direct. Sounds like I need to feed the sub a full bass signal to keep it engaged and there are a couple of paths to get there. What evidently won't work is sub set to YES.

Originally Posted by purdyd

Yes pure direct turns sub off unless it Is set to plus

Or you can turn sub to off and run the sub off the front pre outs

Originally Posted by Kurolicious

No, it does not. Pure Direct does not turn off the sub or any of the other system settings. Set your speakers to Small, cross them at 80hz and then go to Pure Direct. Play some 2 channel music and go up to your sub. You'll hear plenty of bass from your sub.

Your statement about no bass from your sub with 2 channel music would only be true of your speakers were set to Large.

The advice jimjr got from the Pioneer rep was based on speakers set to Large. If he had specified that the speakers were set to Small and crossed at 80hz, he would have gotten different advice, assuming the Pioneer rep understood the basics of bass management. I think even the Pioneer reps are aware that you can't engage the Plus setting with speakers set to Small.

Originally Posted by jimjr

I don't recall you being on the phone with me when I called Pioneer.

I think you are still assuming that bass management is retained even when mcacc is fully bypassed by using pure direct. That assumption may or may not be correct. I know that that was not the case with my Yamaha. The direct settings bypassed everything, including bass management, which killed the output to the subs, until I selected a processed sound field which brought bass management back.

Rather than continue this debate, I will wait for my sub to arrive next week and test it for myself. It will take all of two minutes to confirm without speculation. I haven't heard anyone say that they have actually done the testing under the parameters I have proposed; although I will add that the advice I have gotten from purdyd in the past was usually based on experience.

Originally Posted by Kurolicious

Let me make something very clear - I'm not assuming anything. If you don't believe the facts I've presented to you about these questions, that's your choice.

This is NOT a Yamaha receiver so speculating that the Pioneer is going to behave in the same manor, even though we've told you it doesn't, again is your choice.

Take the advice from those of us who actually have a sub and can speak from experience.

Originally Posted by jimjr

And it's "manner," Chief, not "manor;" a relative of "manners."

Originally Posted by Kurolicious

Funny how earlier in this page you told someone else they were being snotty. Now look who's being snotty.

Originally Posted by t-town oil

I have crossover set at 80 speakers set to small and subwoofer set to yes. When I run it in pure direct, I have no sub output.

Originally Posted by t-town oil

This is when listening to a 2 channel source of course

Originally Posted by purdyd

Mcacc can often sound dulll if you like bass

You would want to look at the reverb graphs and see what is going on

Originally Posted by Kurolicious


No, it does not. Pure Direct does not turn off the sub or any of the other system settings. Set your speakers to Small, cross them at 80hz and then go to Pure Direct. Play some 2 channel music and go up to your sub. You'll hear plenty of bass from your sub.

Your statement about no bass from your sub with 2 channel music would only be true of your speakers were set to Large.

The advice jimjr got from the Pioneer rep was based on speakers set to Large. If he had specified that the speakers were set to Small and crossed at 80hz, he would have gotten different advice, assuming the Pioneer rep understood the basics of bass management. I think even the Pioneer reps are aware that you can't engage the Plus setting with speakers set to Small.

Originally Posted by jimjr


That's good advice. I'll take a look. The only thing I paid attention to after running MCACC was to see if it was cutting the mid bass to my mains at 63Hz. It wasn't and I didn't look any further.

I will say, though, that MCACC does not sound all that dull, at least not compared to the Audyssey I ran on my Integra 9.9. The SC-57 sounds warmer after calibration than the 9.9 did after calibration. So, it might be just my own preference. I am perhaps too used to hearing two-channel audio without any processing so it just sounds more natural to me.

Thanks for the tip. It certainly is worth investigating to see if MCACC can be made to outperform (subjectively speaking) the unvarnished pure direct for two-channel audio.