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The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 103

post #3061 of 3982
"plus" is almost never the "best" setting to use, regardless of what the pio rep said...

what exactly is it you are trying to accomplish? it's hard to tell from all the posts going back and forth...
post #3062 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

"plus" is almost never the "best" setting to use, regardless of what the pio rep said...

Suppose you want to listen to two-channel music in pure direct mode but still want your subwoofer to receive a bass signal?
post #3063 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

Are you sure? I thought pure direct turned off all processing including bass management. That's why the sub seems to be effectively shut off in SW mode when running the pure sound fields. But I could be wrong. The manual is not well written.

No, Pure Direct does not disable bass management.
post #3064 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

Suppose you want to listen to two-channel music in pure direct mode but still want your subwoofer to receive a bass signal?

If your speakers are set to Small and crossed at 80hz, your sub is always playing bass below the crossover.

Read the footnotes regarding the Plus setting - "This may not, however, yield the best bass results. Depending on the speaker placement of your room you may actually experience a decrease in the amount of bass due to low frequency cancellations."
post #3065 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

Suppose you want to listen to two-channel music in pure direct mode but still want your subwoofer to receive a bass signal?

why are you so obsessed with pure direct?

if you are trying to get around mcacc for 2 channel (questionable strategy at best), simply create a mcacc memory with all neutral settings and run in either stereo or direct mode...
post #3066 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

why are you so obsessed with pure direct?

if you are trying to get around mcacc for 2 channel (questionable strategy at best), simply create a mcacc memory with all neutral settings and run in either stereo or direct mode...

Why are you so snotty in your responses? I'm just trying to figure out how the control was designed to operate so I have a starting point for my configuration. If you don't know, have the courage to say so.
post #3067 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

If your speakers are set to Small and crossed at 80hz, your sub is always playing bass below the crossover.

Read the footnotes regarding the Plus setting - "This may not, however, yield the best bass results. Depending on the speaker placement of your room you may actually experience a decrease in the amount of bass due to low frequency cancellations."

Possibly. Not completely sure though. If you look on page 45, where the manual describes the the difference between PURE and PURE DIRECT, it states: "With DIRECT, the only modifications added to PURE DIRECT playback are calibration of the sound field by the MCACC system and Phase Control effect. . . . PURE DIRECT plays back unmodified sound from source with only minimal digital treatment." I am unsure whether the "MCACC System" includes bass management because if it does, there is the possibility that bass frequencies could be cut off to the subwoofer when running PURE DIRECT and I'm trying to figure out if the PLUS control will keep the subwoofer active at all times. I just don't know

I think I'll contact Pioneer and see if they can get me something fully describing the PLUS mode.

EDIT: Spoke to Pioneer. Tech confirmed that the only way to guarantee getting the sub to activate with all sources is to engage PLUS mode, which bypasses everything else going on in the system and puts out a consistent low frequency signal to the sub that is not affected by bass management. It isn't a full range signal, like you can get from the speaker terminals -- it is a bass signal only, although he did not know what the high frequency cut-off was. Apparently Pioneer doesn't publish it.

For what it's worth, Pioneer's knowledge base actually proved marginally useful and seemed to confirm that the sub can be cut out with certain source material unless PLUS is used. One Q&A from the website:

"No subwoofer output with 2 channel sources.

[Q:] I setup the receiver and I had the subwoofer when I would listen to a 2 channel source, like a CD. I then ran the MCACC setup, for my Home Theater. Now when I listen to the 2 channel source, I no longer get the subwoofer to work.

[A:] The MCACC software will take readings and set the system to settings it thinks are the best.
After performing the MCACC setup, you should go into the receiver and make fine adjustments.

Press the receiver button, located underneath the display window.
Press the setup button, located on the right side of the remote (near the middle).
Arrow down to highlight Manual SP Setup and press enter.
Highlight Speaker Setting and press enter.
Arrow down to highlight subwoofer.
Arrow to the right to set the subwoofer to PLUS.
Press return and then press the setup button to exit.

With this change, the subwoofer will output sounds from all sources.
You may also need to make adjustments to the Channel Level to set the speaker levels to your liking."
post #3068 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

Why are you so snotty in your responses? I'm just trying to figure out how the control was designed to operate so I have a starting point for my configuration. If you don't know, have the courage to say so.

ok, good luck...
post #3069 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

ok, good luck...

I agree. He asks us for help and then doesn't believe anything we tell him.
post #3070 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

I agree. He asks us for help and then doesn't believe anything we tell him.

Now that is not exactly fair. I have indeed asked for help and I actually take what you are saying seriously. I was simply hoping for a little more foundation than "trust us, that's how it works." I did get a more fulsome explanation from Pioneer, and it wasn't the same explanation you gave.
post #3071 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

Now that is not exactly fair. I have indeed asked for help and I actually take what you are saying seriously. I was simply hoping for a little more foundation than "trust us, that's how it works." I did get a more fulsome explanation from Pioneer, and it wasn't the same explanation you gave.

It's been our experience that poineer call center reps don't always provide the most accurate information. Let me try to clarify something. You seem to be confusing a processing setting with a system setting. AutoSurround, Direct, Pure Direct are processing modes. A System Setting would be sellecting Small or Large for the speakers, crossover, channel levels.

When you run Full Auto MCACC, the AVR typically sets speakers as large. In this case, 2 channel music would not have any bass going to your sub because you're telling the AVR to send full range frequencies to your mains. That's why you're not hearing your sub.
post #3072 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

It's been our experience that poineer call center reps don't always provide the most accurate information. Let me try to clarify something. You seem to be confusing a processing setting with a system setting. AutoSurround, Direct, Pure Direct are processing modes. A System Setting would be sellecting Small or Large for the speakers, crossover, channel levels.

When you run Full Auto MCACC, the AVR typically sets speakers as large. In this case, 2 channel music would not have any bass going to your sub because you're telling the AVR to send full range frequencies to your mains. That's why you're not hearing your sub.

Thanks. That's starting to get to where I'm going and I apologize if my lack of clarity has conveyed a message I did not intend.

Here is what I am trying to explore. Bear with me. I have had several AVRs over more years than I care to reflect upon.

I had a Yamaha quite a while back (I don't remember if it was the RX-Z1 or its immediate predecessor) that had a bass management system that was manually set up much the way MCACC does automatically. I could set large/small, the crossover, etc. LFE and anything below the cross, generally 80Hz, would automatically go to the sub. The problem was that I liked listening to music in the Yamaha equivalent of Pioneer's "pure direct" mode. Unfortunately, when you used no sound field processing in the Yamaha, all bass management was defeated automatically (bass management was considered part of the processing), and would reengage only if you either played a multichannel source or selected a processed sound field. That had the effect of setting all of the speakers to large automatically (but temporarily), thus cutting out the sub for two channel music. The only way you could effectively get the sub back AND not use any processing was play a multi-channel source or select in the set up what was the equivalent of the PLUS mode on the Pioneer, where a low-level bass signal was always output regardless of whether bass management was engaged. I'm trying to figure out if the Pioneer does the same thing. I'd test it empirically, but my sub is in transit and I'm just trying to gather some advance intelligence.

That was the only reason I asked if you were sure that bass management was retained when using pure direct because that was not the case with my Yamaha. It was not a pot shot. I have neither the time nor the desire for trolling.
post #3073 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

"plus" is almost never the "best" setting to use, regardless of what the pio rep said...

what exactly is it you are trying to accomplish? it's hard to tell from all the posts going back and forth...

well, when listenning to stereo sound, I wish to keep the SUB on all the time even in PURE DIRECT mode, as the sound output is not very filling without SUB. In absence of SUB, the music sounds crips but don't deliver that punch as you would expect from a stereo channel with SUB on.
post #3074 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

Possibly. Not completely sure though. If you look on page 45, where the manual describes the the difference between PURE and PURE DIRECT, it states: "With DIRECT, the only modifications added to PURE DIRECT playback are calibration of the sound field by the MCACC system and Phase Control effect. . . . PURE DIRECT plays back unmodified sound from source with only minimal digital treatment." I am unsure whether the "MCACC System" includes bass management because if it does, there is the possibility that bass frequencies could be cut off to the subwoofer when running PURE DIRECT and I'm trying to figure out if the PLUS control will keep the subwoofer active at all times. I just don't know

I think I'll contact Pioneer and see if they can get me something fully describing the PLUS mode.

EDIT: Spoke to Pioneer. Tech confirmed that the only way to guarantee getting the sub to activate with all sources is to engage PLUS mode, which bypasses everything else going on in the system and puts out a consistent low frequency signal to the sub that is not affected by bass management. It isn't a full range signal, like you can get from the speaker terminals -- it is a bass signal only, although he did not know what the high frequency cut-off was. Apparently Pioneer doesn't publish it.

For what it's worth, Pioneer's knowledge base actually proved marginally useful and seemed to confirm that the sub can be cut out with certain source material unless PLUS is used. One Q&A from the website:

"No subwoofer output with 2 channel sources.

[Q:] I setup the receiver and I had the subwoofer when I would listen to a 2 channel source, like a CD. I then ran the MCACC setup, for my Home Theater. Now when I listen to the 2 channel source, I no longer get the subwoofer to work.

[A:] The MCACC software will take readings and set the system to settings it thinks are the best.
After performing the MCACC setup, you should go into the receiver and make fine adjustments.

Press the receiver button, located underneath the display window.
Press the setup button, located on the right side of the remote (near the middle).
Arrow down to highlight Manual SP Setup and press enter.
Highlight Speaker Setting and press enter.
Arrow down to highlight subwoofer.
Arrow to the right to set the subwoofer to PLUS.
Press return and then press the setup button to exit.

With this change, the subwoofer will output sounds from all sources.
You may also need to make adjustments to the Channel Level to set the speaker levels to your liking."

My friend I total agree with you, upon Pioneer Rep advice, I have set the SUB to PLUS and after that sound was incredible.

Untill now I was repenting and asking my self why did I buy this receivr, I should have b stuck to my Marantz Brand and should have bought Marantz 7005, which is incredible in its audio reproduction. But with this PLUS setting has got me out of that feeling.

Once again, I said before, correct me if I'm wrong, the first priority for anyone purchasing HT receiver is its sound reproduction ability, other features are just nice to have. This is the reason ONKYO could never beat Marantz or I would now say Pioneer.
post #3075 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkdahiya View Post

well, when listenning to stereo sound, I wish to keep the SUB on all the time even in PURE DIRECT mode, as the sound output is not very filling without SUB. In absence of SUB, the music sounds crips but don't deliver that punch as you would expect from a stereo channel with SUB on.

Yes pure direct turns sub off unless it Is set to plus

Or you can turn sub to off and run the sub off the front pre outs
post #3076 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Yes pure direct turns sub off unless it Is set to plus

Or you can turn sub to off and run the sub off the front pre outs

Thanks. This is starting to make some sense.

Two channel audio sounds best in my set up in pure direct. Sounds like I need to feed the sub a full bass signal to keep it engaged and there are a couple of paths to get there. What evidently won't work is sub set to YES.
post #3077 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post


Thanks. This is starting to make some sense.

Two channel audio sounds best in my set up in pure direct. Sounds like I need to feed the sub a full bass signal to keep it engaged and there are a couple of paths to get there. What evidently won't work is sub set to YES.

Mcacc can often sound dulll if you like bass

You would want to look at the reverb graphs and see what is going on
post #3078 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Yes pure direct turns sub off unless it Is set to plus

Or you can turn sub to off and run the sub off the front pre outs

No, it does not. Pure Direct does not turn off the sub or any of the other system settings. Set your speakers to Small, cross them at 80hz and then go to Pure Direct. Play some 2 channel music and go up to your sub. You'll hear plenty of bass from your sub.

Your statement about no bass from your sub with 2 channel music would only be true of your speakers were set to Large.

The advice jimjr got from the Pioneer rep was based on speakers set to Large. If he had specified that the speakers were set to Small and crossed at 80hz, he would have gotten different advice, assuming the Pioneer rep understood the basics of bass management. I think even the Pioneer reps are aware that you can't engage the Plus setting with speakers set to Small.
post #3079 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

No, it does not. Pure Direct does not turn off the sub or any of the other system settings. Set your speakers to Small, cross them at 80hz and then go to Pure Direct. Play some 2 channel music and go up to your sub. You'll hear plenty of bass from your sub.

Your statement about no bass from your sub with 2 channel music would only be true of your speakers were set to Large.

The advice jimjr got from the Pioneer rep was based on speakers set to Large. If he had specified that the speakers were set to Small and crossed at 80hz, he would have gotten different advice, assuming the Pioneer rep understood the basics of bass management. I think even the Pioneer reps are aware that you can't engage the Plus setting with speakers set to Small.

I don't recall you being on the phone with me when I called Pioneer.

I think you are still assuming that bass management is retained even when mcacc is fully bypassed by using pure direct. That assumption may or may not be correct. I know that that was not the case with my Yamaha. The direct settings bypassed everything, including bass management, which killed the output to the subs, until I selected a processed sound field which brought bass management back.

Rather than continue this debate, I will wait for my sub to arrive next week and test it for myself. It will take all of two minutes to confirm without speculation. I haven't heard anyone say that they have actually done the testing under the parameters I have proposed; although I will add that the advice I have gotten from purdyd in the past was usually based on experience.
post #3080 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

I don't recall you being on the phone with me when I called Pioneer.

I think you are still assuming that bass management is retained even when mcacc is fully bypassed by using pure direct. That assumption may or may not be correct. I know that that was not the case with my Yamaha. The direct settings bypassed everything, including bass management, which killed the output to the subs, until I selected a processed sound field which brought bass management back.

Rather than continue this debate, I will wait for my sub to arrive next week and test it for myself. It will take all of two minutes to confirm without speculation. I haven't heard anyone say that they have actually done the testing under the parameters I have proposed; although I will add that the advice I have gotten from purdyd in the past was usually based on experience.

Let me make something very clear - I'm not assuming anything. If you don't believe the facts I've presented to you about these questions, that's your choice.

This is NOT a Yamaha receiver so speculating that the Pioneer is going to behave in the same manor, even though we've told you it doesn't, again is your choice.

Take the advice from those of us who actually have a sub and can speak from experience.
post #3081 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

Let me make something very clear - I'm not assuming anything. If you don't believe the facts I've presented to you about these questions, that's your choice.

This is NOT a Yamaha receiver so speculating that the Pioneer is going to behave in the same manor, even though we've told you it doesn't, again is your choice.

Take the advice from those of us who actually have a sub and can speak from experience.

Why are you getting so upset? This isn't that big a deal. If you want me to take your advice, I'd be happy to. Since I don't have a sub at the moment, please play a two-channel CD in pure direct mode, with SW set to yes, not plus, and using whatever bass management settings you currently use, and tell me if you still get any appreciable output from the sub.

I'm happy to abide by the results, but getting angry (and imprecise with cues like "we" and "us" when there appears to be a lack of unanimity) makes it hard to just take your word for it.

And it's "manner," Chief, not "manor;" a relative of "manners."
post #3082 of 3982
I have crossover set at 80 speakers set to small and subwoofer set to yes. When I run it in pure direct, I have no sub output.
post #3083 of 3982
This is when listening to a 2 channel source of course
post #3084 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

And it's "manner," Chief, not "manor;" a relative of "manners."

Funny how earlier in this page you told someone else they were being snotty. Now look who's being snotty.
post #3085 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

Funny how earlier in this page you told someone else they were being snotty. Now look who's being snotty.

Ugh! You got me! Excellent work.

Now about the results of your testing. . . .
post #3086 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by t-town oil View Post

I have crossover set at 80 speakers set to small and subwoofer set to yes. When I run it in pure direct, I have no sub output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t-town oil View Post

This is when listening to a 2 channel source of course

This is very helpful. Thanks for providing your data.
post #3087 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Mcacc can often sound dulll if you like bass

You would want to look at the reverb graphs and see what is going on

That's good advice. I'll take a look. The only thing I paid attention to after running MCACC was to see if it was cutting the mid bass to my mains at 63Hz. It wasn't and I didn't look any further.

I will say, though, that MCACC does not sound all that dull, at least not compared to the Audyssey I ran on my Integra 9.9. The SC-57 sounds warmer after calibration than the 9.9 did after calibration. So, it might be just my own preference. I am perhaps too used to hearing two-channel audio without any processing so it just sounds more natural to me.

Thanks for the tip. It certainly is worth investigating to see if MCACC can be made to outperform (subjectively speaking) the unvarnished pure direct for two-channel audio.
post #3088 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post


No, it does not. Pure Direct does not turn off the sub or any of the other system settings. Set your speakers to Small, cross them at 80hz and then go to Pure Direct. Play some 2 channel music and go up to your sub. You'll hear plenty of bass from your sub.

Your statement about no bass from your sub with 2 channel music would only be true of your speakers were set to Large.

The advice jimjr got from the Pioneer rep was based on speakers set to Large. If he had specified that the speakers were set to Small and crossed at 80hz, he would have gotten different advice, assuming the Pioneer rep understood the basics of bass management. I think even the Pioneer reps are aware that you can't engage the Plus setting with speakers set to Small.

I did that with speakers set to small and there was no sub output

Have you tried this on a sc5x?
post #3089 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post


That's good advice. I'll take a look. The only thing I paid attention to after running MCACC was to see if it was cutting the mid bass to my mains at 63Hz. It wasn't and I didn't look any further.

I will say, though, that MCACC does not sound all that dull, at least not compared to the Audyssey I ran on my Integra 9.9. The SC-57 sounds warmer after calibration than the 9.9 did after calibration. So, it might be just my own preference. I am perhaps too used to hearing two-channel audio without any processing so it just sounds more natural to me.

Thanks for the tip. It certainly is worth investigating to see if MCACC can be made to outperform (subjectively speaking) the unvarnished pure direct for two-channel audio.

I think in a typical room there is quite a bit of reverb going on in the bass and the default sampling spot for mcacc is around 120 msec

If you specify the sample point to be 50 msec, you may get more bass

But you need to see the reverb graph

Read this starting around page 15

http://www.pioneer.eu/files/support/...A.En.01_35.pdf

Reverb graph for my fronts after mcacc with 50 msec sample point
LL
post #3090 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by t-town oil View Post

This is when listening to a 2 channel source of course

I agree, I also didn't get anything from SUB when the spkrs were set to SMALL, SW to YES and crossed over at 80.

Now my setting are Spkrs to LARGE, SW to PLUS and Crossover to 80. Now plenty of bass even in Pure direct.

I hope it helps.
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