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The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 107

post #3181 of 3861
6/8/12 at 8:35am
Thanks Kurolicious. I guess the easiet way then to play "pure" 2.0 stereo with no subwoofer would be to run/save another MCACC with only the 2 fronts selected and set as large? Is there a better way?

- JD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

If your speakers are set to Small with a crossover, yes the sub would be playing any bass below the crossover in any mode, Direct or Pure Direct.
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post #3182 of 3861
6/8/12 at 9:44am
I thought about the filter settings like sharp etc. There should be 3 different?
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post #3183 of 3861
6/8/12 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_alpha View Post

Thanks Kurolicious. I guess the easiet way then to play "pure" 2.0 stereo with no subwoofer would be to run/save another MCACC with only the 2 fronts selected and set as large? Is there a better way?
- JD

Might want to double check to confirm you are actually getting output from your subwoofer in pure direct mode or you just think you are. It would be unusual to get sub output in pure direct because it bypasses all MCACC settings, including bass management. I just checked my subs again to confirm using an Oppo BDP-83 hooked up via HDMI and a 2-channel SACD and I had no sub output in pure direct mode. A couple of previous posters (e.g., purdyd and t-town oil) got the same results. I did get sub output in direct mode. In pure direct I had plenty of bass coming from the main speakers, however, which was easy to mistake as coming from the subs because the mains are towers. So, take another listen. Try turning off your sub entirely in pure direct mode and see if you notice any difference in sound. You shouldn't. So, pure direct mode should get you where you want to go without any other changes.
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post #3184 of 3861
6/8/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

Might want to double check to confirm you are actually getting output from your subwoofer in pure direct mode or you just think you are. It would be unusual to get sub output in pure direct because it bypasses all MCACC settings, including bass management. I just checked my subs again to confirm using an Oppo BDP-83 hooked up via HDMI and a 2-channel SACD and I had no sub output in pure direct mode. A couple of previous posters (e.g., purdyd and t-town oil) got the same results. I did get sub output in direct mode. In pure direct I had plenty of bass coming from the main speakers, however, which was easy to mistake as coming from the subs because the mains are towers. So, take another listen. Try turning off your sub entirely in pure direct mode and see if you notice any difference in sound. You shouldn't. So, pure direct mode should get you where you want to go without any other changes.

Although MCACC bypasses the processing in Pure Direct, it does not change the speaker configuration or the crossover in the System Settings. If you have them set to Small and crossed at 80hz, you will get bass fron the sub.
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post #3185 of 3861
6/8/12 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

Although MCACC bypasses the processing in Pure Direct, it does not change the speaker configuration or the crossover in the System Settings. If you have them set to Small and crossed at 80hz, you will get bass fron the sub.

Wrong. I just tested it. No output from the sub in pure direct. Bass management is bypassed.
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post #3186 of 3861
6/8/12 at 1:57pm
Thanks for the responses guys. I did get down on my hands and needs and jam my head right next to the sub and I was pretty sure it was pumping out a signal. I'll try some regular CD's that are definitely only 2 channel as maybe my SACD was mislabelled and was really 2.1.

How about my idea of a second MCACC run/save with a different speaker settings for pure 2.0 stereo? Disregarding whether or not Pure Direct defeats bass management, would my idea work?

- JD


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

Although MCACC bypasses the processing in Pure Direct, it does not change the speaker configuration or the crossover in the System Settings. If you have them set to Small and crossed at 80hz, you will get bass fron the sub.

Wrong. I just tested it. No output from the sub in pure direct. Bass management is bypassed.
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post #3187 of 3861
6/8/12 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_alpha View Post

Thanks for the responses guys. I did get down on my hands and needs and jam my head right next to the sub and I was pretty sure it was pumping out a signal. I'll try some regular CD's that are definitely only 2 channel as maybe my SACD was mislabelled and was really 2.1.
How about my idea of a second MCACC run/save with a different speaker settings for pure 2.0 stereo? Disregarding whether or not Pure Direct defeats bass management, would my idea work?
- JD

A 2.1 SACD is possible. Check the info on your Oppo. It'll tell you the source encoding. I did a test with the SACD of Dark Side of the Moon, which I know is encoded in 5.1, and I got output from the sub in pure direct. But it wasn't because of bass management. It was because the original source was already multichannel and bass management was unnecessary to create an LFE. If you try just a straight up 2-channel CD in pure direct mode you won't hear any output from the sub because you can't go from 2.0 input to 2.1 (sort of) output without bass management.

As for your MCACC solution, you shouldn't need to do anything with two-channel sources other than select pure direct. If you have a 2.1 source that you are trying to essentially turn into a 2.0 source to play from just the mains, then I can't think of any other way to do it other than having a preset where you set all your speakers to large and sub to no. But I'll think about it.
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post #3188 of 3861
6/8/12 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

Wrong. I just tested it. No output from the sub in pure direct. Bass management is bypassed.

It does bypass MCACC EQ and bass mgmt. It does not bypass the channel levels, trim, distance calibration unless you also turn MCACC off. Pure Direct + turning MCACC off is the true bypass wink.gif

At least that's how it worked in previous SC and VSX models.

So, you are correct, there should be no sub output, unless it was a multichannel disc with dedicated .1 track, Then and only then, should there be sub activity. Unless the sub is set for Plus and MCACC EQ left on, of course.
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post #3189 of 3861
6/8/12 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8shooters View Post

I finally hooked up my Pioneer Sc 55 to a Panasonic 3D blu ray player and JVC X30 projector with HDMI. The receiver is not recognizing the HDMI signal from the blu ray. I need to turn the receiver off and on 1-2 times and then it does.

I have the same issue with the PS3 didn't reconize my 3D TV until I read this post and tried power cycling the receiver. Did nothing else. Anyone know what the problem is here????
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post #3190 of 3861
6/8/12 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweElite View Post

Could someone kind post or link what the "curves" will look like with the different digital filtersettings.

About a year ago in this thread, I posted reference docs on the AKM AK4480 selectable digital filter characteristics. The datasheet does not include impulse response nor frequency response graphs, unfortunately. But you may still find the included measurements useful.

You can find the post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1352164/the-official-pioneer-elite-sc-55-sc-57-owners-thread/240#post_20848556

AJ
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post #3191 of 3861
6/9/12 at 1:44am
Thanks a lot.

What setting is the most preferable? Which mode has the largest possible frequency responce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

About a year ago in this thread, I posted reference docs on the AKM AK4480 selectable digital filter characteristics. The datasheet does not include impulse response nor frequency response graphs, unfortunately. But you may still find the included measurements useful.
You can find the post here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1352164/the-official-pioneer-elite-sc-55-sc-57-owners-thread/240#post_20848556
AJ
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post #3192 of 3861
6/9/12 at 2:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

About a year ago in this thread, I posted reference docs on the AKM AK4480 selectable digital filter characteristics. The datasheet does not include impulse response nor frequency response graphs, unfortunately. But you may still find the included measurements useful.
You can find the post here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1352164/the-official-pioneer-elite-sc-55-sc-57-owners-thread/240#post_20848556
AJ

AJ

You came through. I figured someone might, just like in my day with the early SC models wink.gif
I'll check these out myself. Nice to keep up with the tech.
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post #3193 of 3861
6/9/12 at 10:28am
Help! I have the following problems:
1. The option “Firmware update” is disabled, so, I don’t have access to the option “Update via USB” and I can’t update.
2. The network connection doesn't work. The avr option “Network Information” is disabled and if I tried to display the option “Network Setup” it displays the message “Network Setup. Applying settings.” and the display is frozen. Even if there is no network cable connected, the display is frozen with the message “Network Setup. Applying settings.”.
3. Not able to connect with an iPad via Bluetooth (AS-BT200). On the avr display it shows “Starting”.

I reset the router and the receiver many times (page 61). I bought this receiver to stream music and I can’t use it. Can somebody give me a reason why the option “Firmware update” is disabled?
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post #3194 of 3861
6/9/12 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweElite View Post

Thanks a lot.
What setting is the most preferable? Which mode has the largest possible frequency responce?

How do you define "preferable" and "largest possible frequency response"?

Furthermore, some will say that the differences among digital filters are exceedingly subtle -- at best. And some will say that the digital filters included on DAC chips (as is the case with the AK4480) are noticeably inferior to the custom digital filters developed by boutique manufacturers and implemented in DSP ahead of the DACs.

So, you may not want to tread down the digital filter slippery slope. At the bottom, it seems, is absurdity.

AJ
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post #3195 of 3861
6/9/12 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan_AVS View Post

Help! I have the following problems:Y
1. The option “Firmware update” is disabled, so, I don’t have access to the option “Update via USB” and I can’t update.

I don't know if this is your problem, but the option to update using the USB only became active once I place the USB drive into the port on the front of the AVR. Put your freshly formatted drive with just the firmware file on it the port and try again.
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post #3196 of 3861
6/9/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

How do you define "preferable" and "largest possible frequency response"?...Furthermore, some will say that the differences among digital filters are exceedingly subtle -- at best...At the bottom, it seems, is absurdity.
AJ

I couldn't agree with you more.
I already posted that to the poster but maybe he needs to read it from more than just me.

Subtle at best is exactly what I've experienced with 2 players that had selectable filters.

On the issue of freq response, the filters do have different roll-offs, and those that are usually described as "sharp" may have the steepest rolloff, the brick wall effect, which can effect phase. The gradual roll-off filters tend to start in the hi-freq band but are purported to have less effect on phase.

At least this is what I remember from reading the Sony white paper on their SACD players redface.gif

Bottom line -

1) it is subtle
2) the poster is asking for hard, objective data when it's subjective whether or not the effect will even be audible in his room, with his speakers, to him.

He should just get one & try it for himself instead of asking something which has no answers. How could anyone know what would be preferable to his hearing tastes?
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post #3197 of 3861
6/9/12 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

On the issue of freq response, the filters do have different roll-offs, and those that are usually described as "sharp" may have the steepest rolloff, the brick wall effect, which can effect phase. The gradual roll-off filters tend to start in the hi-freq band but are purported to have less effect on phase.

Indeed. Digital filtering is always a compromise between frequency domain and time domain behaviors.

A "sharp" filter may have frequency response extension almost to the Nyquist frequency, then an exceedingly steep slope beyond. This effectively suppresses ultrasonic alias images, but it typically introduces substantial pre and post ringing in the impulse response of each digital sample.

A "slow" filter, on the other hand, may have frequency response that starts to diminish even below 10 kHz and may be down by 3 dB (or more) by 20 kHz. This shallow slope often better preserves time domain behavior with less pre and post ringing on transients, but it does so at the expense of significant leakage of ultrasonic aliases.

Stereophile recently reviewed a digital processor (i.e. standalone DAC) that offers a plethora of selectable digital filters. The measurements section is particularly informative for those who want to better understand how digital filtering trades off frequency domain for time domain performance (and vice versa).

http://www.stereophile.com/content/abbingdon-music-research-dp-777-da-processor-measurements

AJ
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post #3198 of 3861
6/9/12 at 1:45pm
^^
I'm out of practice on the technical explanations - maybe I've just gotten lazy to re-read this stuff redface.gif
But from what I remember, you nailed it.

Sony's "standard" had the extended freq, but sharp roll-off - to my ears, in my room, with my speakers wink.gif to my ears, it flattened the soundstage, made the sound seem to come from the plane of the speakers (Magnepans) and it was a harder edged sound. Their "optional" seemed a bit smoother and the soundstage seems a little more 3 dimensional, more depth. The optional was supposed to have the gradual drop-off. Still it is a subtle difference and I have to listen very closely to make the distinction. Kal Rubinson in one of his Stereophile reviews of the Sony player, also preferred optional.

The Pioneer 59AVi player had selectable filters....I remember trying them out once or twice, but honestly can't remember how they differed, if any. I almost always used the ILink connection on the player to 3 Pioneer AVR's back in the day when they had ILink/PQLS, so the player's DAC's/filters were bypassed anyway.

Thanks for the technical explanation, AJ smile.gif

But the fact that Pioneer includes them in the AVR's is a nice touch for those that want to experiment and see what sounds best to them wink.gif
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post #3199 of 3861
6/9/12 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klips View Post

I don't know if this is your problem, but the option to update using the USB only became active once I place the USB drive into the port on the front of the AVR. Put your freshly formatted drive with just the firmware file on it the port and try again.

I inserted a USB drive, 16 Gb, formatted FAT32, with only one file, the AVR_12_0215.mem.
To have access to the option “Update via USB”, we have to select first the option “Firmware update” and enter in this option. The problem is that the option “Firmware update” is disabled (in gray), so I can’t enter in this option and I can't see the option “Update via USB”.
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post #3200 of 3861
6/10/12 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

It does bypass MCACC EQ and bass mgmt. It does not bypass the channel levels, trim, distance calibration unless you also turn MCACC off. Pure Direct + turning MCACC off is the true bypass wink.gif
At least that's how it worked in previous SC and VSX models.
So, you are correct, there should be no sub output, unless it was a multichannel disc with dedicated .1 track, Then and only then, should there be sub activity. Unless the sub is set for Plus and MCACC EQ left on, of course.

Thanks for that explanation. That makes a whole lot of sense. I could tell, and the manual confirms, that pure direct performs only minimal processing but the manual didn't specify exactly what "minimal" means. I was able to tell that EQ and bass management was defeated but that was far as I could get with experimenting. Thanks.
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post #3201 of 3861
6/10/12 at 8:45am
On Onkyo the dispaly turns off in pure dirct mode, but not on the LX85*(SC57). Did i miss something here?

Thanks in advance
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post #3202 of 3861
6/10/12 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan_AVS View Post

I inserted a USB drive, 16 Gb, formatted FAT32, with only one file, the AVR_12_0215.mem.
To have access to the option “Update via USB”, we have to select first the option “Firmware update” and enter in this option. The problem is that the option “Firmware update” is disabled (in gray), so I can’t enter in this option and I can't see the option “Update via USB”.

I think you better call Pioneer tech support.
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post #3203 of 3861
6/10/12 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan_AVS View Post

I inserted a USB drive, 16 Gb, formatted FAT32, with only one file, the AVR_12_0215.mem.
To have access to the option “Update via USB”, we have to select first the option “Firmware update” and enter in this option. The problem is that the option “Firmware update” is disabled (in gray), so I can’t enter in this option and I can't see the option “Update via USB”.

There is the nuclear option, which is attempting an update via the boot loader, not the GUI. To do this, try the following steps:

1. Turn off AVR
2. Insert USB drive with firmware only.
3. Hold down the Tune-UP button on the front panel while pressing the power key.
4. After automatically flipping through a couple of screens, the front panel (not the tv/display) should read UPDATE.
5. Press ENTER on front panel.
6. Use Preset Left or RIght buttons on front panel to select YES
7. Press enter.
8. Sit back and watch the front panel. It will say ACCESSING, followed by UPDATING and a percentage completed.
9. After 100% it should power off automatically.
10. You're done. Power back up normally.

Be patient. It might seem like the UPDATING screen takes a long time. The percentage does not increase percent by percent but jumps in large blocks as it updates and it will skip large blocks to the extent there are subsystems that do not need updating.

I have used this procedure but I can't guarantee it will work for you. Using the boot loader is aggressive and I can make no reps that it's entirely safe. But it doesn't sound like you have much to lose. If the firmware load works with this method, I would recommend a full factory reset after powering back up.

Good luck.
Edited by jimjr - 6/10/12 at 10:11am
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post #3204 of 3861
6/10/12 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

It does bypass MCACC EQ and bass mgmt. It does not bypass the channel levels, trim, distance calibration unless you also turn MCACC off. Pure Direct + turning MCACC off is the true bypass wink.gif
At least that's how it worked in previous SC and VSX models.
So, you are correct, there should be no sub output, unless it was a multichannel disc with dedicated .1 track, Then and only then, should there be sub activity. Unless the sub is set for Plus and MCACC EQ left on, of course.

I'm sorry but you are only partially correct. Pure Direct disables EQ and Standing Wave but not bass management. Even turning MCACC completely off does not automatically change your speakers from Large or Small or vise versa. The speaker setting is an independant setting, not part of a processing feature.

However, when EQ and Standing Wave are turned off, there is much more bass coming from your mains because MCACC attempts to flatten the frequency response so with it off, it will sound like the sub is not playing. This is assuming you're system is set up the traditional way and not bi-amping.
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post #3205 of 3861
6/10/12 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjr View Post

There is the nuclear option, which is attempting an update via the boot loader, not the GUI. To do this, try the following steps:
1. Turn off AVR
2. Insert USB drive with firmware only.
3. Hold down the Tune-UP button on the front panel while pressing the power key.
4. After automatically flipping through a couple of screens, the front panel (not the tv/display) should read UPDATE.
5. Press ENTER on front panel.
6. Use Preset Left or RIght buttons on front panel to select YES
7. Press enter.
8. Sit back and watch the front panel. It will say ACCESSING, followed by UPDATING and a percentage completed.
9. After 100% it should power off automatically.
10. You're done. Power back up normally.
Be patient. It might seem like the UPDATING screen takes a long time. The percentage does not increase percent by percent but jumps in large blocks as it updates and it will skip large blocks to the extent there are subsystems that do not need updating.
I have used this procedure but I can't guarantee it will work for you. Using the boot loader is aggressive and I can make no reps that it's entirely safe. But it doesn't sound like you have much to lose. If the firmware load works with this method, I would recommend a full factory reset after powering back up.
Good luck.
Thank you jimjr for your advice. When the updating process is at 50%, I receive the message "Update Error 4". I downloaded again the file, I formatting the drive and I tried 4 times. I use a drive USB 2.0 Patriot Axe 16gb, FAT32. The size of the file is 21 112 832 bytes.
I didn't try to start the avr.
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post #3206 of 3861
6/10/12 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan_AVS View Post

Thank you jimjr for your advice. When the updating process is at 50%, I receive the message "Update Error 4". I downloaded again the file, I formatting the drive and I tried 4 times. I use a drive USB 2.0 Patriot Axe 16gb, FAT32. The size of the file is 21 112 832 bytes.
I didn't try to start the avr.

Yikes. I don't even know what that is. I think purdyd's advice is your only remaining option. Send it in. Maybe try a smaller capacity USB drive formatted in FAT (not FAT32) and disconnect everything prior to updating. But I'm not optimistic.
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post #3207 of 3861
6/13/12 at 2:42pm
has anybody tried bi-amping with the 55/57? Results?(sound quality difference)?
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post #3208 of 3861
6/14/12 at 11:20am
I bi-amped my old VSX-72TXi in an attempt to tame my then "too bright" speakers. I thought I heard a difference, and so re-did the bi-amping when I got my -57. The old timers here have reams of links that prove no sound difference is possible. I left mine bi-amped anyway, because the area behind my speakers is smelly-sticky with ancient cat pee and I won't go back there if I don't have to.
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post #3209 of 3861
6/15/12 at 9:01am
does anyone got a list of pioneer remote controll commands? (not IR/RF remote, but the serial port or LAN port 23 commands)
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post #3210 of 3861
6/15/12 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by starmoon007 View Post

does anyone got a list of pioneer remote controll commands? (not IR/RF remote, but the serial port or LAN port 23 commands)

This should have what you want, if you know what to do with commands in ascii, etc. wink.gif

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Support/Home-Entertainment-Custom-Install

If not, then look to your remote control mfg for 232 & IP codes, for example, URC maintains them in a codebase in their programming software.
Edited by ss9001 - 6/15/12 at 10:12am
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