The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 115

I have the SC-55, but I can get a good deal on the Onkyo 3009 this weekend only
I will not be using it for music
I want the clearest, most dynamic movie sound (especially dialogue)
Will it be worth it to upgrade on sound quality alone?
Thanks
Jakob

No I don't believe so.
The Pioneer SC models have an almost separate like sound quality. IMO it's the best sounding overall at it's price point receiver on the market. They also have awesome dynamic range which is what you want for a theater first receiver.

Onkyo like Integra are fantastic receivers in their own right. They are fully custom and very good sounding. Excellent dynamic range but IMO they sound like a receiver. They have that noisy back ground thats tipical in a receiver. I would say they sound better then most other receivers out there but not better then the Elite's SC models.

I'm curious why you would want to get out of the SC55 , what about it don't you like or is it just this killer deal you found with the Onkyo?

I had a Pioneer SC-37 for a couple of weeks to replace my Denon AVR-3808 but I sold it in a weak moment, mostly because I found the sound too bright
But then I missed that very dynamic Pioneer sound
I then bought the SC-55 (it doesn't have the bright sound)... but something is missing compared to the SC-37
I can't really put my finger on it
I have never had an Onkyo and then this deal came along
I am curious, having had Denon models for more than a decade (apart from these last months with the Pioneers)

^^
I don't think anyone can definitely advise anyone on which particular AVR is going to sound more "dynamic" or "less bright" or "warmer" than any other brand. I almost replied earlier but Mantis raised the point

If "dynamics" are what you're after, what do you think the Onkyo is going to do better than your Pioneer? The amps in the Pioneer have been tested to not drop too much power 5 & 7 channels driven simultaneously. I haven't found any bench tests on the 3009 but why would you expect it to out-perform the amps for ability to reproduce peak power demands?

Unless you 1) don't like the sound of the 55 or 2) want Audyssey Multi32XT, IMHO, all you're accomplishing is spending money to trade laterally

Most Brand x vs Brand y posters are just seeking people to agree with a decision they'd like to make anyway

My advice is go listen for yourself & compare. If this "really good deal" on the Onkyo is an internet deal, then see if they have a 30 day return policy. If it's a storefront dealer, many will let you do demos in their store or in home but it still won't be the same speakers, unless you're lucky or the same acoustic environment.

Setup some listening comparisons in your home with your speakers. We don't know the speakers you have, their impedance or the size of room you use. How can anyone here tell you one would be better than the other for "dynamics"?

The most important factor to your sound is the

Speakers
Room acoustics

The electronics behind them make a very small (or miniscule) contribution. As long as the amps are capable of driving your speakers & you're not driving them into clipping, changing amps won't change "dynamics" much if at all, unless they have a lot more peak power capability. If anything the Pioneer should "win" since it's already to come close to its power rating - 7 ch driven at same time....what more do you want in a mid-priced receiver?

If it's a lot more headroom you seek, then add a hi-powered ext amp, in the 200-400wpc range, like a Parasound A51, for example.

Changing to get a different room correction EQ system is a different story. Are you unhappy with Pioneer MCACC? Do you prefer Audyssey or want it to do sub EQ? If the answer is yes, then by all means get the Onkyo or go back to a Denon.

Nothing wrong with swapping gear, but if you've already swapped brands 3 times in a short time, maybe the issue is not the gear but you don't know what you want.

Just because it's a deal doesn't make it better and deals come along all the time, so why be in such a hurry? Instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction to chase a deal, find an Onkyo dealer and go listen! To me, it looks like you are a price shopper, chasing deals instead of taking time to investigate, talk to your dealers, audition & listen for yourself.

Sorry I'm direct but it's in the interest of helping you.
Edited by ss9001 - 8/5/12 at 7:51am

Thanks for your replies
The Onkyo is a beast, very heavy
Here in Denmark private persons can't send packages weighing more than 40 pounds with the national postal service (the Onkyo is approx. 60 pounds)
It's possible but it would be pretty expensive
Thus, returning the beast would not be cheap or easy
You are absolute right: room acoustics are very important, and I've read that the XT32 version of Audyssey is way better than the Audyssey in my Denon
But you're probably right in that I should just keep the SC-55...

^^
Oh - are you thinking because it's heavier it's better?

the Onkyo uses class A/B amps which typically are no more than 50% efficient. So class A/B amps need very large (heavy) transformers and power capacitors because half the power they pull from your socket is wasted as heat.

the Pioneer uses a class D amp design, about 85% efficient, that can produce it's rated power with a lot smaller (lighter) weight transformer and fewer large capacitors.

The amps in your 37 were also class D but made by a different mfg - the Icepower div of B&O in your fair country Pioneer changed to a much different and they claim better design in the SC-55/57 models, less distortion at the power peaks, simpler circuit design.

Just to be pedantic , the weight difference comes due to the massive heatsinks you need to dissipate that extra heat in class AB amplifiers. And the power supply transformer to produce that wasted energy. Caps and such don't weight much. The switchmode amplifiers such as used in the Pioneer are so efficient that they simply uses the chassis for cooling. Compare that with huge fins with class AB amps.

I have done fair bit of comparisons of switchmode amps to class AB -- going up to $50,000 amplifiers! There is one constant: switchmode amplifiers have much better command of low frequencies. Their damping factor there is excellent and coupled with their higher efficiency, they can simply drive the woofers better regardless of price. I have had $3K amps beat $20K amps (both from the same company) in that regard. As you rightly note, for home theater applications this is important where you don't want to have distortions when the dynamics come. This type of performance can be easily measured and proven. Yes, there can be a slight trade off in the high frequencies. If there is a problem there, it will be load specific likely and hard to take one's experience and apply it to another.

While not written for this segment of the market in mind, here is an article I wrote on such factors in the much higher tier product class: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/MarkLevinsonNo53Amplifier.html
The worst experience I have had has been with the ICE modules. Depending on power supply design and module used, performance at the top end (of the frequency response) can be wanting. That said, there are people who swear that they sound good. So there .

Thanks Steve, setting the subwoofer to Plus was the only option that worked. I have left the speakers as Large and my problems appear to be resolved.

Here is how I am setup now.

amirm, Read your post and article. I'm in the market for a new receiver. Looking at all the new ones and trying to evaluate from all the threads. I like the info you gave about class D amps. I'm wondering about the high end freq's, about how they can be tingy. Was that just the ICE amps or are they in the all class D amps? Do the amps in the newer SC models clear that up? With that being said, what is your recommendation for a receiver used mostly for theatre? In the same range of the SC 55.
Thanks for any input, and for anyone else.

Need Some Official Advice Please, From Official Owners.

My local BB has an open box deal on Pioneer SC-55 for six benjamins and ninety-nine. This is truly open box return, no cables, no manual, mcacc mic or remote. Doesn't even have original power cord, but something comparably rated. 4 year extended warranty for 1 benji more.

This will be replacing my Pioneer Eite VSX-23TXH that I power 5.1 In ceiling Sonance speakers with 2 subs split. I use a speaker channel selector to power 4 outdoor speakers, and 2 more in the front room from zone 2.

Is this a great deal I shouldn't pass up, or missing parts a deal breaker? Will it be a great improvement from my VSX-23, especially with the 3 powered zones, vs my 2 right now?

Thanks for any input!

Man, that sounds stolen... I'm not saying that is necessairly the case because I'd like to think Best Buy has a bit more common sense than that. I personally wouldn't do it. Not having all of the original parts would only hurt you in the end, especially if you wanted to sell it at some point. That's just me though.

LOL that's pretty funny. BB is hurting, but hopefully not that bad that their fencing stuff. I'm debating and on the same boat with you about all the missing parts, but I have VSX-23 and older Pioneer 1018. So I have remotes and mcacc mics that came with those, and the ipod/iphone cable for the VSX-23, which is hopefully compatible with all features of the SC-55.

Also keeping the extended warranty as an option and 30 day return to check it out

The mic is a must for calibration. You'll need the mic specific to that model (I don't think they are interchangeable since every Elite I've owned, 4 now, has its own mic part no.)

I've done some homework for you -

Here's the bare minimum you should consider ordering from Pioneer Parts to have a functional & resellable unit -

Calibration Mic: $39.75
Remote: $39.00
Ipod Cable: $36.50
Power Cord: $42.25
Manual: $16.50

That's $134 not including the cheesy FM & AM antennas which are another ~$15. All in stk except the remote. You may get lucky and find a remote on Ebay.

You can't use it without the mic. Power cords can be replaced for lot less as long as they are well shielded (RF/EMI interferences on class D amps).

You can use a programmable remote, but having no remote is a big downer for a resale.

Is this worth the hassle to you? You can find brand new ones, full warranty in the $1000 range, probably less for closeout deals if you're patient and talk to some dealers who'd like to clear their shelves.

And they'd love to sell you that extended warranty for $100 since that's pure profit to them. Unless they cover it with the original 2 yr warranty from the time you bought it, then having that 4 yr warranty is maybe not such a good deal for you, since you probably will be shopping for something new before then.

Your choice. I know what I'd do

IMO, if BB was stupid enough to lose these vital accessories in the 1st place they deserve to be stuck with it. If if was a customer return, then they are really numb nuts for not checking the box (and why would a customer keep the remote & mic ) Sounds like a floor model to me, and they just lost everything.

yes they are, deservedly

I wouldn't trust that the mics are the same. This has been borne out over years with previous models. People trying ones from different models and then saying it doesn't sound right. I don't remember the official word, but if I were you, before I did anything, I'd call Pioneer and ask. Make sure you talk to someone in the tech support dept in Calif. not just cust service.

The mics all have different part numbers, model to model, and model year to model year. Every one I have owned has had a diff mic. Even the 49Txi & 59Txi receivers which were about as close to each other as you could get, 2 years apart, had different part numbers. Each generation of SC models has had MCACC tuned differently, and yours are even more radically different, being std amp'd models. AFAIK, they've required mics with slightly different calibrations.

I would at least order the correct mic from Pioneer parts.

Your choice

Awesome ss9001 thanks for doing my homework! Where did you find the parts, pioneer website? Yeah, I asked the BB sup if it was the floor model but he said it was an open box return. I wouldn't be interested in floor model due to abuse they might have received. But a 30 day return is ok by me. They've been clearing out open box and floor models, so they give out any cables they have at that time. I had the guy digging in all their drawers and their all filled with mis-matched cables, nothing labled or organized.

The 2 year pioneer warranty is still legit. I'm not concerned with resell value, I still have the "old" 1018 and it gets daily use.

So, you wouldn't do it for $699?? Trying to get a price to value and is it worth it am I missing out on a great deal or what. Thanks for your input

IDK I think I've swapped out the mics between my 2 pioneers and they work between the 2. No errors or anything, but don't know if sound quality has been affected. Sounds good to me though! I bought the new pioneer avh 8400 for my truck and had planned on using one of the mics to calibrate that too

http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=SC-55

I'm sure you can order by phoning the parts cust service number. Or setup a account.

I have seriously considered buying an open box or refurb for the Denon AVP prepro to save thousands. Vanns had one for sale without the remote. I could buy the remote from Denon. Not having a properly calibrated Audyssey mic is a different story, since each version of Audyssey uses a diff mic. And no, I wouldn't buy an open box Pioneer without vital accessories. I can afford the several hundred more it takes to get a legit new one from an auth dealer

Keep in mind, you are swapping mics not just between models but totally different amp designs with differently freq response characteristics and have been tuned to different MCACC target curves. The tuning between just the SC-37 and 57 is different for example. Did it ever occur to you why Pioneer would make different ones with different part numbers if they were all completely identical? They could save on inventory, carrying only 1 part for years instead of new ones for each model. Or is that piece of logic lost on you?

Might as well use it for your truck too. I'm sure the target calibrations for those 2 acoustic signatures are the same

I can see you have you mind made up so why even ask here for advice

You can lead the horse to water...

While you're at it, go ahead & buy the extended warranty. Wow...by the time you're done, you'll have saved a grand total of $200 over finding a brand new one with everything from a legit dealer, even off Amazon or Newegg...what a deal!

Have fun with all your mics. You & open box "deals" seem to be a match made in heaven.
Edited by ss9001 - 8/8/12 at 6:11am

Nope. Thats why I'm here. I had planned on upgrading in the future and saw this walking thru the Magnolia. Here to find out if its a good deal or not. Thanks for the input

Steve - in all seriousness, has anyone verified that the mics, even if they have a different part number, are indeed only calibrated for usage in a specific AVR, and that the MCACC target curves are different between models with a similar amp? Not sure what difference, if any, it would make between a SC-27 and SC-37, or a SC-5x and SC-6x, which represent similar groups of Class D amps (ICE in the former case, the newer Pio design in the latter).

Of course, I'm coming from an Audyssey perspective, where there's different flavors of Audyssey according to number of filters/resolution and sub EQ, and at the very least the mic and implementation of the RC software is brand specific. Pioneer may have a different philosophy where calibration to a target curve is really "AVR specific", and subtly changes year to year, for all I know.

Not that I have a dog in this one anymore....just making a point FWIW.
Edited by sdrucker - 8/8/12 at 11:15am

Is your primary concern getting a good deal? Or upgrading? If I could do it all over again I would have went with the Denon 4311CI with Audyssey XT32 and dedicated subEQ. This would have suited my particular application better given I have a signifigant need for bass management (something the Pio does not offer).

Also, one other thing to consider is the CEDIA is a month away. They might come up with something brand new with similar performance to the SC-55 for the cost of what you are tying to scoop up that open box item for at BB...

Just a few things to keep in mind.
Edited by popalock - 8/9/12 at 10:55am

What?

I think you mispoke, popalock. Of course, Pioneer has bass management (BM = crossovers & redirected bass > subwoofers). Let's use the correct terminology before someone reads that & thinks Pioneer is an antique pre-Dolby Digital days!

If you want to be precise in your intended meaning, I would suggest saying Pioneer doesn't include dedicated equalization for subwoofers. That would be a true statement. And nothing wrong with your preference for Audyssey Not criticizing your preference at all, just correcting your statement to reflect what I think you mean to say from previous posts

Although, to be fair, Pioneer does EQ 63, 125, 250 Hz frequencies plus calculates & overlays 3 standing wave notch filters, that you can also manually tweak, on mains, center & subs, so in a sense, it does do something to combined bass output, just not dedicated EQ for subs. There's more to it than you give it credit for.

Again, I have no problem with your criticism and share it Nor your suggestion to consider the 4311.

It's time for Pioneer to look at including sub EQ. And I believe they will be.

Although the Audyssey mic used the year the AVP was released is different, every Denon AVR with any version of Audyssey after that year (ie. going back 5 years to the XX09 and newer models), all use the same mic (DM-A409) which is also interchangeable with Onkyo and Marantz AVRs going back a few years. Even the 3D/XT32 upgraded AVPs are using the DM-A409 mic as well which can generally be readily purchased on eBay for about $25.

^^
I stand corrected on Audyssey mics. Thanks!
I tried calling Pioneer yesterday to ask. But I was on hold for 10 min. both times I called and I had work to do

There are a number of detailed posts in the SC-07/SC-05 thread where very inquisitive posters like CHP_VR, ccotenj, MrMagloo, Johnla, looked into this issue. Part numbers are different for many models, while some use the same part no. What I don't have conclusive proof is whether different part no's are truly different. I think the consensus back then for some of these open box deals was if the missing mic was a different part from one you had, then get the correct one. But every time the issue came up, the advice was the same...call Pioneer & ask.

Why someone would just automatically assume all mics are same is a mystery to me. I know I wouldn't make that assumption, especially comparing my home AVR's to a in-dash car stereo

It also reminded me how much fun those threads were to post in when we were all trying to learn as much as we could about the SC models. A lot of that "fire" has been lost, where now we see more "what should I buy", "is this a deal" or the worst, people who have very limited knowledge arguing & debating with those "in the know". I know that has infuriated ccotenj on occasion . Both of us have earned time in the "penalty box" And it seems more prevalent in Pioneer threads than in Denon ones. Some of these dedicated folks have dropped off the scene, like CHP_VR, and many have joined the Dark Side like ccotenj and others.

But if some of the people posting now want to see what can be done, check out the original SC-07 thread. You will be amazed at the quality efforts that went into developing all this technical background information & helping owners. Even tho I started the 1st Ice amp Pioneer thread, the SC-09, I wouldn't compare to the organization & visual presentation skills that CHP_VR put into making the SC-07 thread probably one of the best ones on AVSForum. His work compares to the wiki type info you'll find in the Oppo & Audyssey threads with FAQ's, links to ext sources, pdfs, etc. There was more emphasis on the objective side of the receivers and using them, just like there is in the Denon 4311 & Audyssey threads.

The spirit is still there in all the SC threads just with fewer people who take the time to do the homework
Edited by ss9001 - 8/9/12 at 2:35pm

OK - I've done some homework on various mics used for the "models in question"

Dark Knut - you must be blessed because you're in luck:

Model & Mic
VSX-23TXH: APM7009
SC-55: APM7009

OTOH
VSX-1018: APM7008

but you are OOL on the truck stereo, a completely different mic from any used in AVR's going a long way back
AVH-P8400: CPM1083

I now give you my blessing to grab that open box deal March on down to that BB & hand over that plastic.

And send me a check for $100 while you're at it for all the time I spent doing your homework for you All you had to do was call Pioneer or go to their website which has a link to the parts site in the Supports section. Just don't assume, which all of us are guilty of at times, even me

For the record,

SC-09TX: APM7007
SC-07: APM7008
SC-27: APM7009
SC-37: APM7009
SC-57: APM7009
SC-68: unknown, no # on mic, no info on web site yet

and going back even further

VSX-59TXI: APM7003
VSX-55TXI: APM7004
VSX-94TXH: APM7008 (same as SC-07 - interesting)
VSX-84TXSI: APM7008
VSX-74TXVI: APM7006

Doesn't answer what differences there may be between them in acoustic signatures. For all I know now, it may be because of different part suppliers.

But everyone is now free to use their weapon of choice

And sorry I turned this issue into a multi-post controversy.

I still am highly interested in knowing if the calibration is tied to the specific mic and will try to get someone knowledgeable at Pioneer to confirm. If I do, I will post what I find.
Edited by ss9001 - 8/9/12 at 1:23pm

I have a treated HT room and had the Denon 4311. Found Audyssey to be lacking in audio adjustments and the flat SQ isn't for me. It is not natural! I have used Audyssey 2 times now and each time I hoped that it was a improvement over Pioneer MCACC, to me a big NO. I listen to movies at -5 to 0 and the SC-57 is natural sounding in audio and again offers more audio adjustments.More tweaking abilities with the iControl app from Pioneer. I checked my room with XTZ and found that I really don't need any sub EQ but still added a Anti Mode 8033S model to do the sub EQ for my 3 submersives. I have the Denon in the living room with my Polk RT system and does OK in a large 6000+ cu ft room. Ht room is 2200 cu ft.

Can someone tell me if the SC-55 will allow you to run all nine-channels as a main speakers, like the Yamaha RX-A2010's "party-mode?" I'd like to be able to set up a 5.1 channel home theater with 2 other zones, and then be able to use all nine speakers as main speakers for parties. I know it's been confirmed that the SC-55 will not do this with an HDMI input, but what about other inputs like an RCA? I've looked through the manual, but can't determine if this receiver will do what I want it to.
Edited by maximizese - 8/11/12 at 10:13pm

yes, i remember that... we spent a significant amount of time testing it...

infuriated is one way of putting it... it becomes rather difficult after awhile to share hard earned knowledge when "not so knowledgeable" posters continually tell you that you are wrong...

i too miss those days... we completely deconstructed that avr... your suggestion that people check that thread out is a good one... it's about as good an example as there is for a well organized, objective and "friendly" thread... no one got away with any bs, but everyone always got along...

i miss the sunday morning audio theory learning sessions as well... and man do i miss charles...

good to see that you are at least still trying... you are a better man than i...

If I understand you correctly, you'd like to basically run all 3 zones at same time, from same source, in stereo, expanded stereo in the main room. I don't see any reason you can't do that but download & check the manual to make sure. There is nothing special about so-called Party modes, it's just another DSP derived fake surround mode that adds reverb to the mix. Party modes duplicate stereo into all surrounds, for a fake 5 or 7 ch "surround". Its not a true surround format like Dolby ProLogic.

One of the Pioneer's faux surround modes is called Extended Stereo, which "gives multichannel sound to a stereo source, using all of your speakers".

In the main room this will send duplicated 2 ch stereo into all the surrounds. What it would do in zone 2 & 3, I'm not sure, but I suspect it would also add a little reverb to them or do nothing, leaving zone 2 & 3 as basic stereo. But as long as you set up the speaker configuration correctly to begin with, I don't think you would need to add Extended Stereo, just run it normally and you could then create "real" surround in the main room using ProLogic II. The "party mode", either in Pioneer, Yamaha or any other brand is not what makes all 3 zones run at the same time. It's just another processing.

If the manual says you can run a main zone, and 2 other zones at same time, then you're good to go. You would use speaker configuration G "5.2 Surround System & Zone 2/Zone 3 Connection (multizone)", described on pg 14 in the manual for your initial setup.

Since you have configured the amps for 3 zones, it should work. Just use the remote to select the same source for sub zones 2 & 3.
Edited by ss9001 - 8/12/12 at 5:55am

Yes, it will

You can do it from an analog source

AirPlay or home media gallery source

Back on AVS after almost 2 years of just enjoying what I built which included the SC-07 which to echo what I am reading above was a purchase made through the help of CHP, SS9001 and ccotenj.

I am big on doing my own research but 3 little kids just shut that down for the last few years. So with that said a few questions that seems appropriate for this thread

1) Is there a good thread out there (sure there are many but hoping someone can give me a GOOD one) that discusses peoples opinions on the difference in today's receivers vs the Ice age receivers such as SC-07

I absolutely love the sound from my receiver but really want to be able to drive two more back speakers (would be a 9.1 setup and I am not hoping for discreet 9.1 knowing this is rare but duplication of rear channels) and for RF and ipod control

2) When the first RF controllable receiver came out I was told it wouldn't work on the SC-07 (I never understood why since it used the rs232 port) has any of you old owners tried out the RF-antenna that comes with these new models and confirmed if it works?

3) Is anyone upgrading to the SC-68 as I would be curious in a comparison to the SC-55 which I am sure one could get a good price now

Thanks guys and to some of you - long time no speak