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The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 116

post #3451 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_alpha View Post

So I'm FINALLY getting my AVR back. Apparently it was a firmware problem and all the hardware is fine. I have the wireless adapter already set up, but I don't really have a proper network at home and I never used networking through the AVR or the adpater before.
Now I'm a little paranoid about the firmware - should I just not connect the adapter until I'm sure I'm going to use the networking function on the AVR? Would I be missing out on anything? My understanding is that Pioneer doen't often update the firmware, unlike Oppo and other electronics companies that seem to do it fairly regularly.
Thanks,
JD

As it turns out, network updating of the firmware doesn't work. The SC55 (and I assume the SC57) will always tell you that your software is up to date and it will never find an update on the network. You have to download any updates onto a USB drive and load it that way. Since I bought the receiver a year ago, I think there's only been one update and I'm not sure what it fixed or added.

But if you want to listen to network radio or use any of the other network services (Pandora, etc.), you do need the network adapter. And there's no reason why the network adapter should cause any problems to the receiver.
post #3452 of 3982
Just got hold of a Klipsch RW-12d sub. When I ran MCACC, I could hear the sub fine. When I play a TV show or a BD, nothing comes out of the sub. (And yes, it was a scene in which the 'sub' was flashing on the receiver panel. I know I stupidly must be missing something, but what is it? One strange thing I noticed was that the SC55 didn't like the level on the sub set to 0. It made me turn it down to about -10db, then during MCACC, it reduced output to the sub by another 9.5db. Does that make sense?

Thanks in advance for any help.
post #3453 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

Just got hold of a Klipsch RW-12d sub. When I ran MCACC, I could hear the sub fine. When I play a TV show or a BD, nothing comes out of the sub. (And yes, it was a scene in which the 'sub' was flashing on the receiver panel. I know I stupidly must be missing something, but what is it? One strange thing I noticed was that the SC55 didn't like the level on the sub set to 0. It made me turn it down to about -10db, then during MCACC, it reduced output to the sub by another 9.5db. Does that make sense?
Thanks in advance for any help.

i assume something comes out of the sub in some other modes?

have you tried simply turning the sub up?

what is your speaker setup, front large? sub on or plus?

you might try turning sub to plus, again just to see if it all works

check if you have the subs plugged into the proper place, believe me, it is easy to plug them into the wrong spot if you don't pay attention

good luck!
post #3454 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

i assume something comes out of the sub in some other modes?
have you tried simply turning the sub up?
what is your speaker setup, front large? sub on or plus?
you might try turning sub to plus, again just to see if it all works
check if you have the subs plugged into the proper place, believe me, it is easy to plug them into the wrong spot if you don't pay attention
good luck!

I just ran a THX alignment disc that I have and the sub is definitely working when I run the frequency sweep crossover test. So maybe I just chose lousy program material. I'm about to run some more tests now.
My speaker setup is 5.1 with fronts set to large. I wanted them set to large for music listening but I was surprised that MCACC set them to large automatically - I really thought it would have set them to small. It originally set the sub to sub, but I reset it to Plus just so I could hear what it sounded like on ordinary program material. I'll have to run some tests both ways to see which sounds best. The THX trailer (the one with the flowers) sounded amazing, so everything might actually be okay. (My downstairs neighbor won't be happy, but that's one of the reasons I got a forward facing sub).

Thanks for responding.
post #3455 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

I just ran a THX alignment disc that I have and the sub is definitely working when I run the frequency sweep crossover test. So maybe I just chose lousy program material. I'm about to run some more tests now.
My speaker setup is 5.1 with fronts set to large. I wanted them set to large for music listening but I was surprised that MCACC set them to large automatically - I really thought it would have set them to small. It originally set the sub to sub, but I reset it to Plus just so I could hear what it sounded like on ordinary program material. I'll have to run some tests both ways to see which sounds best. The THX trailer (the one with the flowers) sounded amazing, so everything might actually be okay. (My downstairs neighbor won't be happy, but that's one of the reasons I got a forward facing sub).
Thanks for responding.

I have full range speakers and I set all my speakers to small and the sub(s) have a 80 hz crossover. You try it this way for awhile and you can use THX with these settings. TV isn't really a good media for trying out your system as movies are better.
post #3456 of 3982
i am running a 7.1 setup. but very little 7.1 content . so i am thinking of biamping my front speakers, kef Q900's . can you tell the difference? the kef are listed at 8 ohms, but from what i've read they are more like 6 ohms.
post #3457 of 3982
mcacc correctly set my speakers to large with 80hz crossover . but setting all speakers to small definitely sounded better. with potentially 180 watts into 6 ohms i don't think a lack of power is the reason.
post #3458 of 3982
2 Questions for a SC-57:
1) Can anyone tell me how do I disable Kuro Link? I can't find this in any of the menus.
2) In order for Airplay to work, do I need to get the wireless adapter? Or is there a way to get this to work having my receiver connected via LAN?

Thanks!
post #3459 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannylsgr8 View Post

mcacc correctly set my speakers to large with 80hz crossover . but setting all speakers to small definitely sounded better. with potentially 180 watts into 6 ohms i don't think a lack of power is the reason.

until you manually changed them to "small", the xover did not matter, as "large" means "defeat bass management".... virtually EVERY user will get better results by usng bass management (as you proved to yourself without knowing it... wink.gif )...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtkun View Post

2 Questions for a SC-57:
1) Can anyone tell me how do I disable Kuro Link? I can't find this in any of the menus.
2) In order for Airplay to work, do I need to get the wireless adapter? Or is there a way to get this to work having my receiver connected via LAN?

Thanks!

1) it may be called "hdmi control" or "hdmi cec"... download the manual and search for it..,
2) nope, as long as you are connected to the lan, it will work... it just needs to be on your internal network...
post #3460 of 3982
thank you, it was your advice that led me to my present AVR. I tested the KEF Q 900's set to large first. I then tested again settting them to small, using the same progam source, a bluray disc set to DTSHDMA. It definitly sounded better set to small. What I wondered is, if biamping makes a noticable improvement? I have never tried it. I read a few articles about it, but I wanted more data before I went to the hassle of setting it up. I need speaker wire, and then need to run the MCACC again. I am not sure that 7.1 is the best bang for my buck.
post #3461 of 3982
^^
most will say not worth the bother. what the Pioneer does is passive bi-amping, about the same as bi-wiring except using 2 amps in the process. Passive bi-amping uses no crossover to separate bass, mids & treble so is a very dubious (at best) endeavor that has nearly zero practical benefit. Active bi-amping, OTOH, can be very worthwhile but you need an ext crossover "box" or have speakers that allow you to connect to its internal crossover so that you can have 1 amp for each freq band.

passive bi-amping is a way to use up unused amps wink.gif

with mine being a 1 zone setup, what I do is just select the Normal config, so that all amps are available, even if I don't necessarily use them all. I did this with the SC-09 which had 10 amps and with the SC-68's 9, even tho I don't have ht speakers yet. If the power supply supplies all amps equally and ups the power to a channel as needed, then leaving some channels unconnected doesn't limit the power in any way. Doing passive bi-amping doesn't double the power either wink.gif

and I know ccotenj will agree wink.gif
post #3462 of 3982
^^^

yup... if anything, passively bi-amping robs power, it doesn't add power...
post #3463 of 3982
all my tests are objective, using empirical data. if ya can't hear the difference, it is not worth it. I love sound. The movies and music become a more visceral and emotional experience with great sound. As always in this forum there are very smart and kindly people willing to help. I did come across passive crossover in my reading, but unfortunately for me I did not fully understand it. In my mind I was trying to figure out what was going on inside the speaker crossover. but with limited data I couldn't make a fair evaluation. I love my Pioneer AVR, it just works perfectly . With my new speakers, I have heard a greater depth of sound than I have ever heard. Actually I am using an Elite SC 37. But no one posts there anymore so please forgive me for asking here. I have received advice from you guys in that forum.
Edited by dannylsgr8 - 8/30/12 at 2:14am
post #3464 of 3982
I am still confused about biamping. when I biamp does it bypass the crossover? so then it sends the full audio spectrum to each driver? the KEF Q900's have binding posts for high and low, just like it shows in the manual. it doesn't seem like a good idea to send the full audio sectrum to the tweeter, so wouldn't KEF have included some form of filter?
Edited by dannylsgr8 - 8/29/12 at 3:04pm
post #3465 of 3982
The crossover inside the speaker is still used in a passive bi-amping scenario such as your AVR performs. There is no crossover inside the AVR. So, you are sending a full-range signal to the high and low inputs of your speaker, same as if you were using one amplifier. The amplifiers in the AVR are running full-range. No risk of damage to the speakers, but no real benefit, either. The same amount of power goes into the speaker for the same volume as if you had a single amplifier, except now the power is sucked from two amplifiers. Since two amplifiers are used, and 100% efficiency is not realizable in practice, you will actually use more power from the wall than if you used just a single channel, but for the same volume level no additional power goes to the speakers.

Active bi-amping uses a crossover to split the high and low signal before the amplifiers. that would allow you to bypass the crossovers in the speakers.
post #3466 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannylsgr8 View Post

all my tests are subjective, using empirical data..

say what??? empirical data doesn't produce subjective results... empirical data produces objective results...

unless someone has changed the scientific method while i easn't paying attention...

hint: what you are using should in no way be confused with "empirical data"...

edit: i see don addressed the "bi-amping" point while i was writing this post... so.. "yea, what he said"... smile.gif
post #3467 of 3982
What Chris said. smile.gif
post #3468 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The crossover inside the speaker is still used in a passive bi-amping scenario such as your AVR performs. There is no crossover inside the AVR. So, you are sending a full-range signal to the high and low inputs of your speaker, same as if you were using one amplifier. The amplifiers in the AVR are running full-range. No risk of damage to the speakers, but no real benefit, either. The same amount of power goes into the speaker for the same volume as if you had a single amplifier, except now the power is sucked from two amplifiers. Since two amplifiers are used, and 100% efficiency is not realizable in practice, you will actually use more power from the wall than if you used just a single channel, but for the same volume level no additional power goes to the speakers.
Active bi-amping uses a crossover to split the high and low signal before the amplifiers. that would allow you to bypass the crossovers in the speakers.

Yes but each of the two amplifiers see less load

I see no harm in trying it out
post #3469 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtkun View Post

2 Questions for a SC-57:

2) In order for Airplay to work, do I need to get the wireless adapter? Or is there a way to get this to work having my receiver connected via LAN?
Thanks!

You can AirPlay through the Ethernet port

Of course somewhere you will need a wireless access point on your LAN
post #3470 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

until you manually changed them to "small", the xover did not matter, as "large" means "defeat bass management".... virtually EVERY user will get better results by usng bass management (as you proved to yourself without knowing it... wink.gif )...
...

Juat to clarify, Large only turns off the crossover for the speakers set to large

Where I have a disagreement with the small always is really I. The setting of the crossover,

80 Hz to me is too high for music and you are better off using a quality woofer from a 'large' speaker down to 50 Hz or perhaps lower, I'd the speaker can handle it

Usually you can move more air with a sub but that doesn't mean it is better
post #3471 of 3982
Chris , I stand corrected. I was attempting humor. What I was tryng to say was, I have only my ears to use in my sound quality analysis. I thank you all for your input. I think I will stay with my 7.1 setup. On another note how does MCACC deal with dipole speakers? I tried and ended up setting them at bipole . An error comes up to tell me my speakers are out of phase. So the good news is the dipole/bipole selector switch works. I have been tryng to increase my knowledge in these areas, not just because it can make the sound better but I find it fascinating. You really know a lot about these things. I have been reading a lot, but I have only scratched the surface. I want to thank everyone for their helpful advice. In my test I only set the front to large, the rest I set to small. MCACC will only allow one crossover, I used 80 hz as that seems to be what everyone else is using. the KEF Q900's frequency is 32hz to 40khz. I read somewhere that movie soundtracks typically only go down to 32hz as most setups cannot extend down to 20hz. mine included. I by no means can afford reference guality speakers. so every decision must be a compromise.
Edited by dannylsgr8 - 8/30/12 at 2:56am
post #3472 of 3982
OK, my SC-57 is connected via LAN to my wireless router but I can't get the Airplay icon to show up on my iPad. My receiver does have an IP address and does show up on my network. Are there any special network settings required? Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

You can AirPlay through the Ethernet port
Of course somewhere you will need a wireless access point
your LAN
post #3473 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

until you manually changed them to "small", the xover did not matter, as "large" means "defeat bass management".... virtually EVERY user will get better results by usng bass management (as you proved to yourself without knowing it... wink.gif )...
...

Juat to clarify, Large only turns off the crossover for the speakers set to large

Where I have a disagreement with the small always is really I. The setting of the crossover,

80 Hz to me is too high for music and you are better off using a quality woofer from a 'large' speaker down to 50 Hz or perhaps lower, I'd the speaker can handle it

Usually you can move more air with a sub but that doesn't mean it is better

- there's nothing in my post that needed clarifying...

- basic room acoustics suggest you are incorrect... beyond that, the, ummm, "belief in the higher quality of the woofer in the mains" is questionable... a subwoofer has one purpose in life, to produce 2-3 octaves... it is purpose designed to handle those frequencies... i have "decent" mains... they measure "in-room" to produce "usable" response into the mid-30's (measured in my room, not "spec'd")... however:

they have no chance of producing that "usable" response with the authority of a sub... at 70db, sure, they'll do it... turn that knob to the right though, and it's a much different story...
and
when measured with the speakers in the correct positiion for imaging/soundstaging, it's not pretty...

to paraphrase the great rasheed wallace... in this case, "graph don't lie"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The crossover inside the speaker is still used in a passive bi-amping scenario such as your AVR performs. There is no crossover inside the AVR. So, you are sending a full-range signal to the high and low inputs of your speaker, same as if you were using one amplifier. The amplifiers in the AVR are running full-range. No risk of damage to the speakers, but no real benefit, either. The same amount of power goes into the speaker for the same volume as if you had a single amplifier, except now the power is sucked from two amplifiers. Since two amplifiers are used, and 100% efficiency is not realizable in practice, you will actually use more power from the wall than if you used just a single channel, but for the same volume level no additional power goes to the speakers.
Active bi-amping uses a crossover to split the high and low signal before the amplifiers. that would allow you to bypass the crossovers in the speakers.

Yes but each of the two amplifiers see less load

I see no harm in trying it out...

don, did you ever find that paper you wrote on this subject? it might clear a few things up for people who have some misunderstandings about it...
Edited by ccotenj - 8/30/12 at 5:01am
post #3474 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannylsgr8 View Post

Chris , I stand corrected. I was attempting humor. What I was tryng to say was, I have only my ears to use in my sound quality analysis. I thank you all for your input. I think I will stay with my 7.1 setup. On another note how does MCACC deal with dipole speakers? I tried and ended up setting them at bipole . An error comes up to tell me my speakers are out of phase. So the good news is the dipole/bipole selector switch works. I have been tryng to increase my knowledge in these areas, not just because it can make the sound better but I find it fascinating. You really know a lot about these things. I have been reading a lot, but I have only scratched the surface. I want to thank everyone for their helpful advice. In my test I only set the front to large, the rest I set to small. MCACC will only allow one crossover, I used 80 hz as that seems to be what everyone else is using. the KEF Q900's frequency is 32hz to 40khz. I read somewhere that movie soundtracks typically only go down to 32hz as most setups cannot extend down to 20hz. mine included. I by no means can afford reference guality speakers. so every decision must be a compromise.

gotcha...

- dunno on the dipoles...
- unless proven otherwise with meaurements, 80hz is generally a good place to start and finish... read the post that from me that precedes this one for the scratching of the surface of "why"...
post #3475 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

- there's nothing in my post that needed clarifying...
- basic room acoustics suggest you are incorrect... beyond that, the, ummm, "belief in the higher quality of the woofer in the mains" is questionable... a subwoofer has one purpose in life, to produce 2-3 octaves... it is purpose designed to handle those frequencies... i have "decent" mains... they measure "in-room" to produce "usable" response into the mid-30's (measured in my room, not "spec'd")... however:
they have no chance of producing that "usable" response with the authority of a sub... at 70db, sure, they'll do it... turn that knob to the right though, and it's a much different story...
and
when measured with the speakers in the correct positiion for imaging/soundstaging, it's not pretty...
to paraphrase the great rasheed wallace... in this case, "graph don't lie"...
don, did you ever find that paper you wrote on this subject? it might clear a few things up for people who have some misunderstandings about it...

Woofers have one purpose to produce 2-3 octaves, they are aligned physically with the tweeters and the direction of their sound is the same as the tweeter

At 80 Hz I can locate a sub

Subs do two things well, move air and produce ver low frequencies, every graph I have seen shows they have a lot of distortion

I have read Don's paper

Let me summarize, the load on each amp is different when biamping

My own addendum

The two amps used will have less load individually, but together consume more pow

If you are limited by the power supply this Wont make a difference

If you are limited by loading on the amp, it. Might

Notice no where do I say either method is sonically superior

I do believe that for the price of some speaker cable you should try it out for yourself
post #3476 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The crossover inside the speaker is still used in a passive bi-amping scenario such as your AVR performs. There is no crossover inside the AVR. So, you are sending a full-range signal to the high and low inputs of your speaker, same as if you were using one amplifier. The amplifiers in the AVR are running full-range. No risk of damage to the speakers, but no real benefit, either. The same amount of power goes into the speaker for the same volume as if you had a single amplifier, except now the power is sucked from two amplifiers. Since two amplifiers are used, and 100% efficiency is not realizable in practice, you will actually use more power from the wall than if you used just a single channel, but for the same volume level no additional power goes to the speakers.
Active bi-amping uses a crossover to split the high and low signal before the amplifiers. that would allow you to bypass the crossovers in the speakers.

Yes but each of the two amplifiers see less load

I see no harm in trying it out

All (both) true -- that is, I agree with both your statements. With a nit-picking qualification or two...

"Less" load in the sense that only one band of frequencies loads each amplifier. Which load is "worse" depends upon the speaker design. For example, many dynamic speakers exhibit low-impedance dips in the LF region, where most of the power goes. However, electrostatic designs typically have the lowest load impedance at the highest frequencies.

Power-wise, it takes more power from the wall to biamp, assuming both amps are the same; total power deliverd to the speaker should be same (for the same SPL).

If you are running out of headroom, then arguably there could be a slight power and distortion improvement. I seriously doubt it is audible but, as far as I recall, I have never personally set up a passively-biamped system (many active ones).

Certainly no harm in trying (just the time and cost of wires). Since I have an active setup now I am disinclined to experiment in my "free time" (what's that? smile.gif ).

FWIWFM - Don

Edit: Just now read your last post, in general no disagreement.
post #3477 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post


Edit: Just now read your last post, in general no disagreement.

that is because you are a reasonable person

i don't have speakers that can be biamped so i've never tried it out myself

however, given what i know or don't know, i wouldn't argue someone out of trying it
post #3478 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtkun View Post

OK, my SC-57 is connected via LAN to my wireless router but I can't get the Airplay icon to show up on my iPad. My receiver does have an IP address and does show up on my network. Are there any special network settings required? Thanks.

i assume your ipad can access the internet through the wireless router

can you run the SC-55 from the AV2 app?

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/icontrolav2-for-ipad/id418087708?mt=8

what is your router?

sometimes the protocol stack locks up on the SC-55, you can try unplugging the power cord and plugging it back in

alternatively, turn network standby to off, turn the power off than on again,

oh, and i assume the SC55 was on or off with network standby on?

it is nice feature (when you getting it working) with network standby on, even when it is off, simply by starting airplay to the receiver it will start up
post #3479 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

i assume your ipad can access the internet through the wireless router
can you run the SC-55 from the AV2 app?
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/icontrolav2-for-ipad/id418087708?mt=8
what is your router?
sometimes the protocol stack locks up on the SC-55, you can try unplugging the power cord and plugging it back in
alternatively, turn network standby to off, turn the power off than on again,
oh, and i assume the SC55 was on or off with network standby on?
it is nice feature (when you getting it working) with network standby on, even when it is off, simply by starting airplay to the receiver it will start up

Yes, my ipad can connect to the internet via the wireless router and I can connect to my SC-57 via the AV2 app.

My router is the Actiontec MI424WR (supplied for Verizon Fios) and my SC-57 is connected directly to the router via LAN

I have tried turning on network standby and still cannot see the Airplay icon on the ipad.
post #3480 of 3982
Just a thought do you have the encryption set to WPA2 Apple products as well as all new tech plays nicer.
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