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The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 121

post #3601 of 3982
^^^

if i understand you correctly, yes... analog video input (NOT hdmi*) can be passed to the zones with the sc-5x series...

* no avr will take hdmi video, process it and send it to a zone... and no avr ever will... you cannot downconvert hdmi to component video, it is against the rules...
post #3602 of 3982
if I am understanding you correctly, this would be damn stupid. So i have an sc-07 and I use HDMI into the receiver from my BD, and my DTV DVR. So if i want to send a VIDEO source to another zone using the sc-55, I would need to connect by dvr and BD using component as well????? What is the point? of using all hdmi connections into my receiver if I lose functionality?
post #3603 of 3982
BUT, using the 67/68, I could receive the video/audio from the dvr using HDMI and then send it using hdmi out to another zone?

I always buy these things a year or two behind (used) to save money, and I was about to drop money on a 55, but this would keep me from doing so. Im done with component cables.
post #3604 of 3982
yes, that is correct...

in order for the avr to process a hdmi signal and send it to zone 2, it would require a duplicate hdmi path, including all the dsp chips (like video processor and so on) along the way... that would be a very big add to the bill of materials for a feature that very few use...

and guess what? you still wouldn't get what you want... it would still have to come out of the avr to zone 2 over hdmi... it's a hdcp restriction... an avr is not allowed to break the hdcp encryption, which would be required in order to downconvert from hdmi to component... this is never ever ever going to happen...

you aren't "losing functionality"... in any way shape or form... you never had any hdmi before, and very few avr's even sent a plain old spdif signal to zones....

the "matrix switch" philosophy on this year's avr's is a functional compromise... you still need a sink in the zone, but you can at least share the sources (i'm currently sharing 5 between the main zone and zone 4 on my denon)...
post #3605 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopsrgreat View Post

So what WILL the 55 output to zone 2 or 4 or whatever it is?
What I want is say watch BD in one room, and watch DTV in another. The sc-67 can do that.. yes? The 55 can also do that??? Yes, it just doesnt use an HDMI out to the second zone, it uses component? am I off?
The sc-67/68 can send both the audio and video out from an inputted source on your receiver to a 2nd zone using HDMI OUT, but does the 55 do the same thing, only it can not do it using HDMI.. you would need component plus whatever for your audio?

have you looked at the manual at all? wink.gif or the rear panel or rear panel photo?
it's all in there...unless you don't understand the manual yet.

if you take the time to look or browse the manual, you'll see component video output jacks, composite video output jacks and analog audio output jacks for zone 2. in fact the jacks even have labels for Zone 2 out, Zone 3 out. so yes, you'll need separate video & audio connections to the 2nd room.

I can understand your question to a point, if you don't own the model yet, but you can download the manual, and the spec sheet which has these things clearly shown in photos and detailed descriptions & wiring diagrams for multizones along with everything else in the manual.

And no, as 2 of us have said, the 57/55 models DO NOT output HDMI to a separate zone. That is a feature that only has only been offered by receiver companies in this model year.
post #3606 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopsrgreat View Post

So what WILL the 55 output to zone 2 or 4 or whatever it is?
What I want is say watch BD in one room, and watch DTV in another. The sc-67 can do that.. yes? The 55 can also do that??? Yes, it just doesnt use an HDMI out to the second zone, it uses component? am I off?
The sc-67/68 can send both the audio and video out from an inputted source on your receiver to a 2nd zone using HDMI OUT, but does the 55 do the same thing, only it can not do it using HDMI.. you would need component plus whatever for your audio?

if you are "done" with component video, then you should be looking at the SC-68/67 models, even if you have to spend a little more. your choice...

the SC-68 will do exactly what you want, BD in 1 room and DTV in another, using HDMI, and can even have different surround modes in each one.

again, your buying decision but no use in asking the same question because the SC-55 will not do what you want using HDMI. None of last year's models can. like ccotenj said, what you seek is a matrix HDMI switching functionality and yes, you can buy external ones that will do this, but not built into in a receiver unless it was introduced this summer, Pioneer was the 1st. with the Pioneer SC-68, Denon 4520CI or Onkyo 5510, you can use HDMI for a dedicated 2nd zone.

But NOT the SC-55/57 models!

understand yet?
post #3607 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

yes, that is correct...
in order for the avr to process a hdmi signal and send it to zone 2, it would require a duplicate hdmi path, including all the dsp chips (like video processor and so on) along the way... that would be a very big add to the bill of materials for a feature that very few use...
and guess what? you still wouldn't get what you want... it would still have to come out of the avr to zone 2 over hdmi... it's a hdcp restriction... an avr is not allowed to break the hdcp encryption, which would be required in order to downconvert from hdmi to component... this is never ever ever going to happen...
you aren't "losing functionality"... in any way shape or form... you never had any hdmi before, and very few avr's even sent a plain old spdif signal to zones....
the "matrix switch" philosophy on this year's avr's is a functional compromise... you still need a sink in the zone, but you can at least share the sources (i'm currently sharing 5 between the main zone and zone 4 on my denon)...


What i want is HDMI in from DTV, and the ability to send that signal to either the primary room, or zone 2 using hdmi out... that is available, but only on the 67/68? and if so, then I guess I will just wate till next year and get the 68 and keep with my 94 and sc-07 for now:)
post #3608 of 3982
that previos response was not up yet... and yes, I understand. 55 is a no go:)
post #3609 of 3982
^^
I'll send you a bill for consulting fees wink.gif
wouldn't want you to spend 5 minutes getting your answer looking at the info on Pioneer's website rolleyes.gif

tongue.gif
wink.gif
post #3610 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopsrgreat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

yes, that is correct...
in order for the avr to process a hdmi signal and send it to zone 2, it would require a duplicate hdmi path, including all the dsp chips (like video processor and so on) along the way... that would be a very big add to the bill of materials for a feature that very few use...
and guess what? you still wouldn't get what you want... it would still have to come out of the avr to zone 2 over hdmi... it's a hdcp restriction... an avr is not allowed to break the hdcp encryption, which would be required in order to downconvert from hdmi to component... this is never ever ever going to happen...
you aren't "losing functionality"... in any way shape or form... you never had any hdmi before, and very few avr's even sent a plain old spdif signal to zones....
the "matrix switch" philosophy on this year's avr's is a functional compromise... you still need a sink in the zone, but you can at least share the sources (i'm currently sharing 5 between the main zone and zone 4 on my denon)...


What i want is HDMI in from DTV, and the ability to send that signal to either the primary room, or zone 2 using hdmi out... that is available, but only on the 67/68? and if so, then I guess I will just wate till next year and get the 68 and keep with my 94 and sc-07 for now:)

or just buy a matrix swirch from monoprice... 4x2 matrix switches are cheap...
post #3611 of 3982
My SC-55 died two days ago. No sound, no picture. When I pulled up the mcacc I got a distorted picture. Less than one year old. Not impressed. I called the place where I bought. It they said 1% failure rate on these. I'm now using my previous thx94. Anyway. Any others have problems with theirs? I'll let you know what I hear from Pioneer. Still have 35 months of warranty left.
post #3612 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
BG
In my opinion, you have way too much information and asking too much in a single post for anyone to provide meaningful and succinct feedback. Can you break it down to simple questions? I saw your original thread and do have Pioneer experience like many others here but honestly, your post makes my head swim & I'd bet I'm not alone. I simply don't have the time to figure out what you're really asking. Sorry
simplify your post & questions and some may be able to give you some help. I'm not sure what you're seeking or what problems you have. maybe somebody with more time than me can help you based on your post, but I certainly can't. I can try if you make it easier to read & get to the point.

Hi there.Thanks for your quick rsponse.Sorry for giving you so much information , but because it is my first post in that forum i thought should inform you for me.Sorry again.I will rephrase the questions in short way to understand.Apart from that , anyone that will spend 3-5 minutes & read my post will understand exactly my issues.Sorry again & Thanks!
Cris
p.s:if you find time please read it
post #3613 of 3982
Anyone still able to use Pandora through HMG? All I get is a server error. The internet radio app is still working fine, but I can't customize that.


I'm about ready to sue Pioneer in small claims court. They've ignored all of my customer service request. Literally ignored. I call back to find out the status on a ticket and they just lose it and claim they have no record and I have to start all over again. They are not maintaining the software on the receiver when other things change, so stuff is breaking over time. I can no longer use any android phone with the iControlAv app because the newer versions which support newer phones don't support the SC-57 and the old version for the SC-57 won't work on newer phones.

I'm surprised there isn't more of an outrage in this thread given the current state.
post #3614 of 3982
^^^

< sigh >

the pandora issue is affecting all avrs from all cems right now, because pandora changed software/interface on their end and "broke" the interface... cem's are working on firmware fixes...

had you looked around for a few minutes rather than ranting, you would have found this out...

sue away... good luck with that... rolleyes.gif
post #3615 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

had you looked around for a few minutes rather than ranting, you would have found this out...

+1
I said something similar in his other thread. and 2 of us posted info in his other thread. hopefully, he's chilled by now wink.gif

small claims court, indeed rolleyes.gif I can see the look on Walkamo's face if he read that wink.gif
(hey, chris...my PM from yesterday? biggrin.gif)
Edited by ss9001 - 12/8/12 at 12:47pm
post #3616 of 3982
sorka

the reason there's not more "outrage" is that everyone else knows what's going on from about every receiver thread all week & checked the company's websites rolleyes.gif it's been that obvious...
post #3617 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

had you looked around for a few minutes rather than ranting, you would have found this out...

+1
I said something similar in his other thread. and 2 of us posted info in his other thread. hopefully, he's chilled by now wink.gif

small claims court, indeed rolleyes.gif I can see the look on Walkamo's face if he read that wink.gif
(hey, chris...my PM from yesterday? biggrin.gif)

lol, yea... that pm was apropos... tongue.gif
post #3618 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

sorka
the reason there's not more "outrage" is that everyone else knows what's going on from about every receiver thread all week & checked the company's websites rolleyes.gif it's been that obvious...

I've been dealing with Pioneer since July on the android app issue. I can't get to any of the enhanced features through the regular remote and newer android phones don't work with the old version of the app and the new version of the app doesn't support the previous generation of receivers. Their policy is to produce one release and then abandon it and not support it.

I've been an Elite owner for years. This is the last Elite product I will ever buy. As the world of AVRs moves into software and connected features, Pioneer, which used to manufacture great hardware is now leaving us stranded because they won't update their software on either the receiver to work with the new apps, or update the old apps to work on the new tablets and phones.

I'll let you know how it goes, but if it goes like the other company's I've sued in the past, nobody will show up and I'll get a default judgement.

For anyone else who wants to do the same, the agent for service in California for Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc is:

GREGORY R PIERSON
Agent Address: 1925 E DOMINGUEZ ST
Agent City, State, Zip: LONG BEACH CA 90810

You must serve the agent for service. Many folks make the mistake of trying to serve the corporations head office. If you do this, the judge will simply throw it out when they determine that you served the wrong party.
It takes about 30 minutes to fill out the forms. If you bought your unit locally, use the small claims court that has jurisdiction in the city you purchased the unit.
post #3619 of 3982
< waits paitently for steve to rant for both of us about what it really means to be "left stranded" by pioneer >
post #3620 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

< waits paitently for steve to rant for both of us about what it really means to be "left stranded" by pioneer >

actually, I thought of it when I saw his post at 6:30 this AM but I refrained - I didn't want purdyd to tell me to take it elsewhere again wink.gif and the SC-09 does make a nice amp as well as a legacy hub eek.gifwink.gif

btw - purdy's been pretty absent of late; since the app issue was his hot button, maybe he'll add his name to that lawyer's client list tongue.gif
Edited by ss9001 - 12/9/12 at 5:58am
post #3621 of 3982
^^^

darn, and i was hoping for a good steve rant... tongue.gif since "we" have much greater reasons to gripe, having actually been promised certain things that never happened... wink.gif

yes, the app does seem to be an overwhelming issue for some... of course, if they look close enough, they'll find a sla somewhere that says (in many lawyerly type words) that "we in no way guarantee this software will work, and we are under no obligation to make it work, and furthermore, we are under no obligation to update it for the future"... wink.gif

that's true of virtually ALL software, regardless of computing platform... it's one of the reasons those thousand page long sla's (that no one actually reads) exist... tongue.gif
post #3622 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
darn, and i was hoping for a good steve rant... tongue.gif since "we" have much greater reasons to gripe, having actually been promised certain things that never happened... wink.gif
yes, the app does seem to be an overwhelming issue for some... of course, if they look close enough, they'll find a sla somewhere that says (in many lawyerly type words) that "we in no way guarantee this software will work, and we are under no obligation to make it work, and furthermore, we are under no obligation to update it for the future"... wink.gif
that's true of virtually ALL software, regardless of computing platform... it's one of the reasons those thousand page long sla's (that no one actually reads) exist... tongue.gif

I'm less concerned with the legality than with the ethics. I don't think a company has to support old devices forever. But I think there's a reasonable amount of time that they should be supporting applications and devices, especially on the higher line products. And that time is definitely more than the time between new product introductions. I'm going to have to agree that Pioneer's apparent policy of not updating software on the receiver to work with new apps and not updating old apps to work on new tablets and phones is problematic. If they followed OS SDK development standards, the older apps WOULD work on newer devices. And beyond that, some of their basic functionality doesn't work: I think there was only one software update for the SC55, but you couldn't get it over the network, you had to download it to a USB key. That was not the promise of that receiver and I could make the case that I wasted $99 purchasing another Apple Express network adapter to support that function.

So while Pioneer has enough legal disclaimers in their advertising and documentation that one probably wouldn't be able to win a legal case against them (although hoping they don't show up in small claims court is a good strategy if all you care about is the money), I happen to agree that it's enough of a reason not to purchase Pioneer in the future. It's not like I'm all that thrilled with the sound of the SC55 anyway. But if you happen to think that Pioneer's product policy in this matter is either a trivial issue or "par for the course", then fine --- it's nice that you're happy with them.

On a slightly different note, regarding the complaints about Pandora not working anymore on lots of devices supposedly due to a server configuration change, I never accessed Pandora via the SC55 as I think the Pioneer UI for this is too awful. But I noticed last night that Pandora was working via my Sony HX929 TV, but it wasn't working via my Sony Blu-ray player. In fact, once I got the network error message on the BD player, I couldn't access anything over the network on the Sony player. I have to kill the power on it and see if it works today. I find it strange that it worked on one Sony device and not the other. You would think they both run off of pretty much the same software, although now that I think about it, there was a TV software update the other night - maybe that update was for Pandora. I have to check today if there's an update for the BD player.
post #3623 of 3982
sigh....
post #3624 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

sigh....

Great rebuttal! I love your insights.
post #3625 of 3982
The legal disclaimers don't mean as much as most think. A few years ago, I won a case against a car wash that damaged my car. They had a sign that said they were not responsible for any damage done to cars in their carwash but it didn't apply because the damage was caused due to their negligence. Disclaimers can be invalid for any number of reasons and those reasons often differ from state to state. Additionally, in small claims court, judges tend to ignore these when they want which sometimes sets up a legitimate reason for appeal, but by the time a big corporation has to go through the expense of dealing case prep, sending someone to represent them, filing appeals, etc, it's sometimes easier to just let the default judgement occur especially when the amount is only $1300. Many have no idea how to collect on a judgement so even if one wins, unless the know the ins and outs about how to collect against a large corporation, the company can still get off scott free. I'm sure corporations take this into account before they decide if they're going to defend themselves or not.
post #3626 of 3982
a) sla's have proven to be very robust when challenged in court...

b) to expect that a cem (or anyone) is going to go back and make software released for new models work with old models is showing a certain lack of thought process... how long so you think it will take the judge to stop laughing before throwing your case out of court?

c) this has nothing to do with "ethics"...

whine away guys... if it makes you feel better, go for it... it's not going to change things...

fwiw... i'm no fan of "big evil corporations".... but i am even less of a fan of whiners who expect the world to revolve around them...

good luck...
post #3627 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

a) sla's have proven to be very robust when challenged in court...
b) to expect that a cem (or anyone) is going to go back and make software released for new models work with old models is showing a certain lack of thought process... how long so you think it will take the judge to stop laughing before throwing your case out of court?
c) this has nothing to do with "ethics"...
whine away guys... if it makes you feel better, go for it... it's not going to change things...
fwiw... i'm no fan of "big evil corporations".... but i am even less of a fan of whiners who expect the world to revolve around them...
good luck...


This boils down to a warranty issue. I can't sue to have pioneer fix their software. They don't have to and nobody can force them. I can sue them an inoperable device still covered under warranty. In this case, it became inoperable within just a few months of purchase.

I believe I have case. Yes, I'm sue happy because I've sued a lot over the last two decades. I've head people like you tell me in the past that a judge will laugh my case out of court. It's never happened. My time is valuable. I won't file small claims actin unless I'm very certain I have a good case. I've won more due to default judgments than any other reason. I strongly suspect it will be the case with this as well.
post #3628 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

b) to expect that a cem (or anyone) is going to go back and make software released for new models work with old models is showing a certain lack of thought process... .

It's a very simple concept: it's called "backwards compatibility" and it's practiced every day. I do software development and as we support (for example) IE8, IE9 and beyond, we still have to be compatible with IE7 and up until very recently IE6. It's one thing to withdraw support after say...five years, but Pioneer not making new software work with "last year's model" is simply very sucky customer service. And in the cases where slightly older software won't work on modern phones and newer software doesn't work on older phones and where newer software doesn't include the older Pioneer models and the older software doesn't include the newer models, I would maintain that Pioneer doesn't give a crap after a receiver goes out the door. Not a good way to retain customers. You can apologize or rationalize for them all you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

c) this has nothing to do with "ethics"... .
You say that and then give absolutely no reason why it's not. I stand by my argument.
post #3629 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

Pioneer doesn't give a crap after a receiver goes out the door. Not a good way to retain customers. You can apologize or rationalize for them all you want.

and what would you like a company that was on the verge of bankruptcy to invest its money on? a phone app that make it NO money or new & improved features in receivers that will entice people to buy & upgrade?

D&M Holdings (Denon & Marantz) are in similar financial situation. Sharp Electronics - who owns a large % of Pioneer & basically helped keep them afloat while they closed the plasma div to stop the bleeding - has recently said that unless THEY get a partner, they may not be sustainable as a company. Sony is bleeding more than a billion/yr for several years and I believe Panasonic is not far behind them.

unless you want NO company left to make TV's & mass market receivers, except cheap Chinese goods sold in Walmarts, maybe you should keep things in perspective rolleyes.gif Pioneer & all other receiver companies are NOT Apple or Samsung tongue.gif

Believe me, I understand where you're coming from, as an SC-09 owner, the original $7K Ice amp receiver from Pioneer, one of many disappointed & at one time pretty mad that Pioneer never offered hardware/software update program for us. And most Susano owners were willing to pay a similar amount as Denon's AVP & 5308 upgrade, about $1000-1200. We were Not complaining about some freebie app that is NOT mandatory for using the receiver - there are universal programmable remotes that will do the job just as well.

And I too ranted & raved, even in this very thread. But I sent emails to top execs at Pioneer, went to 2 CEDIA shows to meet & discuss the issue with Pioneer top personnel at their booth, set up an email campaign for US & international owners giving Pioneer professional business reasons for investing in a $1000 upgrade. But eventually I concluded it was not going to happen, that Pioneer's financials & the hardware platform getting increasingly old, that Pioneer was not in the position to develop it when they needed to improve their bottom line to survive as a company.

And I had to make a decision, go with Denon or stay with Pioneer. I stayed, due to Denon obsoleting their DenonLInk interface but mostly the big cost to get the AVP, pay for the upgrade, and buy a 7 ch amp.

Let me ask you, are YOU willing to pay for icontrol upgrades? I would guess not.

At least we, who spent anywhere from $3000-7000 on the SC-09, were willing to pay Pioneer for a hardware upgrade program. When you commit to spending YOUR money to support updating programs and tell Pioneer you're willing to do so, then you can legitimately complain about their support.

Instead of just whining here, why don't YOU do something constructive and start an email campaign like I did, getting owners on board, take the time to PM AVSForum member Walkamo, the head of marketing for Pioneer US, and send him constructive business oriented emails to see what he can do to persuade Pioneer Japan (the final decision maker) to offer app upgrades. Until you do that, you're just complaining about it & get no sympathy from me...sorry rolleyes.gif

Plus, it's not like you don't have alternatives. I've read about i-rule and other phone apps that will turn a phone into a remote. I don't know details but I would imagine the apple & droid apps supports multiple receivers from different companies. I know I've read posts here about it. Try Home Theater Mag & Audioholics sites...they may have some writeups.

(chris, are you happy now....I wasn't going to do this but these gripes just pulled me in tongue.gifwink.gif)

it's one thing to blow off steam about a disappointment and even be mad (I was for 1+ years but I also spent one hell of a lot more than you guys ever did on a receiver & spent my time trying to do something on behalf of ALL owners!)

but to threaten a lawsuit over a free phone app & be serious about it? Way over the top tongue.gif
very hard to take you guys seriously rolleyes.gif
Edited by ss9001 - 12/9/12 at 1:47pm
post #3630 of 3982
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

It's a very simple concept: it's called "backwards compatibility" and it's practiced every day. I do software development and as we support (for example) IE8, IE9 and beyond, we still have to be compatible with IE7 and up until very recently IE6. It's one thing to withdraw support after say...five years, but Pioneer not making new software work with "last year's model" is simply very sucky customer service. And in the cases where slightly older software won't work on modern phones and newer software doesn't work on older phones and where newer software doesn't include the older Pioneer models and the older software doesn't include the newer models, I would maintain that Pioneer doesn't give a crap after a receiver goes out the door. Not a good way to retain customers. You can apologize or rationalize for them all you want.
You say that and then give absolutely no reason why it's not. I stand by my argument.

so I should expect my cell phone manufacturer to immediately update me to the latest version of Android if their next model supports it? Owners of the original I Phone should sue to get Siri?

IMO you misapprehend the concept of backward compatibility. Yes, if I install a new OS on my existing computer, I need it to be (and the writers attemtpt to make sure it is) backward compatible with programs written for prior versions of the OS. I suspect the driver for that is purely marketing. If installing a new OS renders every program I've purchased inoperable, so I would need new versions of all my programs, they are not selling me the OS. But that's about changing the OS on an existing system, and the decision to do so is mine, not theirs. The fact that next year's model of my computer may come with the newer OS installed, but the manufacturer doesn't owe me a duty to update my last year's model . . . and I can keep my outmoded system as long as I want to as long as it meets my needs with no upgrade needed. And if I upgrade my OS, I pay for the new OS. Even worse if a new version of a word processor or spreadwheet cannot read and maniulate all my existing work product. I'd never buy it. Presumably if Pioneer and other manufacturers saw a potentially profitable market for upgrading existing receivers, they'd pursue it. Even if they incorrectly conclude there is not such a market, the remedy is not to sue them to change their minds, it's for somebody to figure out how to capitalize on that market. It's the way things work.

And BTW "winning" a lawsuit because the cost of losing is less than the cost of filing an answer is not proof of great litigationistic perspicacity. IMO.
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