The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 126

try turning network standby off, then you should be able to turn it off and on again and make it work, without unplugging

of course you lose the capability to remotely turn on when it is off

if that works, i suspect it might be a firmware issue, you do have the latest version?

Sound quality of SC57

I have asked this before....but does anyone have both a Sc37 and SC57?

I have to tell you

I am not that impressed with the Sc57(vs the Sc37)

I disconnected the Sc57 and put the Sc37 back where it was before

I got a heck of a deal... demo SC57 with all the accessories,tax and a 4 year service plan all total for 40% of the retail price of the Sc57

But it sounds "bright" and somewhat harsh

I ran calibration...it didnt get better so I disconnected it

Warren

Still working on the issue with my late friend's SC55 for his wife where it auto shuts down during movies. Only during movies, whether from the blu-ray player or the dish receiver. Never during any other programming. The auto shutdown feature is disabled. The receiver restarts immediately upon the push of the power button, apparently ruling out thermal protection.

If this doesn't sound familiar to anyone, I suppose we may have a defective unit in need of repair.

Hi all. I just hooked my surround backs, giving me 9.2. When I run Ext Stereo, the receive plays the backs, but not my FH speakers? Is it possible to run 9 channel stereo? Source was an iPhone, not sure if that mattered.

Please forgive me for not being up to speed on the SC55 that I'm trying to help get going for my friend. We've noticed that SACD playback through HDMI seems muffled compared to the previous system. The SC55 is so configurable that I'm finding myself a bit overwhelmed. It may be that my late friend has made an adjustment that's causing this. Anyway, is there a sticky somewhere, or some way I can find possible configurations that are working well for people? Or if you have any ideas why SACD playback sounds as if under a veil.

You might check the digital dieter setting page 56 of the manual

You could also tweak the equalization or tone to your taste

It would be interesting to see the reverb graphs from each receiver

Have you tried pure direct?

There is a sacd gain selection page 56 of the manual

What listening mode does it kick into?

You might try turning off control with hdmi page 53 of the manual

some good options to try

I have not tried pure direct...however I did play some 2 channel audio before and after MCACC...and it seemed about the same

And honestly anyone of the receivers I have owned in the last few years...2 channel audio was not really changed in the least pre and post calibration

at the particular Magnolia I purchased the unit at they had it connected to some B&W speakers. I did not listen to it there but I cant imagine it sounded bad

Hence the question I asked if anyone had owned these two units and did and A/B and what they thought...


Warren

Sorry that is digital filter, not dieter......

You must have a very good room, because there is a big difference between pure direct on/off for me

What does your reverb graph look like and what are the equalization settings?

If you go back to the beginning of this thread you will find some sc37 owners

Most thought it was better some not

Return it if you are not happy with it

I'm still working to solve the shutdown issue on my late friend's SC55. The sound quality issue has been resolved.

It turns out this happens with all multi channel sources. DVD-A, SACD, blu-ray, Dish and DVR'd movies. Turn up the volume and it kicks off giving the flashing ipod indicator. This apparently suggests a bad speaker wire somewhere. Has anyone experienced anything like this?

Can anyone elaborate on the digital safety feature and whether or not it may have some bearing on this?

Read the first 14 pages and didnt really see any comparison..EXCEPT for one of the thread starters ...who I believe has sold his unit already
A while back Onkyo replaced a receiver that had failed with a new 5009. He had sent me a PM a while back asking if I was interested in selling it

I didnt...but as I recall he went from the SC57 to the Onkyo 5009

It would be hard ...well not simple...for me to pull the SC37 out and pop the Sc57 back in place..again. Its in a room where it sits high and hidden on top of a piece of furniture

Maybe I will get energetic and A/B the two again..maybe not..lol

Not a big deal I guess as I paid less than 1/3 of retail for the SC57.....and I have still have two weeks left in the return/exchange period


Warren

I **DISTINCTLY** remember that the SC-57's HMG did NOT support "pause." I upgraded the firmware and my wife actually PAUSED the thing. I did it twice just to prove it worked.

Am I crazy?

Sorry about the late response. I totally missed both of your posts somehow.

It turns out this hdmi input was set up to default to THX Cinema. Changing to THX Music improved the sound. I may change the default, (although I haven't discovered how to do that yet) but she also uses the player for Blu-ray movies.

I'm still trying to get a handle on the assortment of audio tweaks available, when one might choose one over another, and which might override another. Auto surround? THX Music? Direct/Pure Direct/Optimum Surround? Were it my system I think I could really enjoy the experimentation. But I'm trying to help my friends widow and she needs it to sound good and be simple. I hope I can get there.

Edit:

Shoot, I just looked on page 56 and did not see it, although it may not be necessary now.

You just hit the nail on the head. This isn't just a problem for Pioneer - it's a problem for all the A/V receiver manufacturers with these advanced modes. It's not clear anywhere what these modes do. In the Pioneer users's guide, the descriptions like "ADVANCED GAME-Suitable for video games" is not really very helpful. I happen to know, for example, that Dolby ProLogic uses phase and an analysis of the stereo components to steer audio to particular channels, but the average person has no freaking idea and doesn't know whether to turn it on or off. Why is there a different mode for music and movies? Don't both need wide dynamic range and accurate steering? Different modes for Sci-Fi and Drama? Don't I need to hear the dialog in both? This is all insane.

And it's also not clear what the relationship is between them when you select them from separate buttons. Are they working together? Does one replace the other? Etc. The licensing must be relatively cheap, so most of the manufacturers simply license them all and throw them in with little to no explanation as to what benefit they supposedly provide. "Home THX is designed to make home theatre audio sound more like what you hear in a cinema." OK....but what does that mean? Does it send more to the surrounds? Does it make it sound bigger? Does it add dynamic range? Does it add reverb?

IMO, this is one of the many reasons why A/V receiver sales are in the toilet. Few people can figure all this stuff out. I'm an ex-recording engineer and even I have trouble with some of it. The first manufacturer who finds a way to simplify all this, but still provide flexibility, will have the potential to dominate the market by expanding it beyond geeks. It should not take multiple settings on five different buttons: Auto/ALC/Direct (3 settings), Stereo, Standard (16 settings), Advanced Surround (18 settings) and THX (12 settings) to choose a listening mode. Just about everyone I know would give up after I got to explaining what the 3rd button does. IMO, the Stereo button is useless, since you can also select Stereo from Standard. The Advanced Surround modes are independent of both the Dolby and THX modes, so IMO, they also seem pretty useless and could have been eliminated. That would have gotten five buttons down to three.

there actually is a compelling argument to get rid of these faux surround modes & free up DSP space to do more useful things for audio. all they do is add varying degrees of reverb. this is a whole lot different than creating surround sound from 2 ch - as you say, matrix processing like Dolby ProLogic, uses phase changes to steer sounds to various channels; it doesn't add anything to what's there. this idea goes way back to quadraphonic era in the 70's. in fact Dolby's very 1st Dolby Surround for cinema was based on the QS quad system which they licensed from Sansui who developed QS.

you can lay the "blame" for these fake reverb modes on several companies. in the early 80's, after quad died, at least 2 companies, Audiopulse & a/d/s, developed complex analog reverb ambience boxes. CE companies like Pioneer, Sansui, Kenwood & others followed with much simpler versions that were popular for a time, like smiley face EQ'rs

sometime in the mid 80's, Yamaha developed external DSP boxes for adding "presense" (= reverb) digitally & then started putting them into receivers. the difference is that Yamaha actually did measure & acoustically model various live concert halls, clubs, churches, music venues to simulate them by adding a touch of reverb & time delays. I don't have a problem with that at all since it was based on real listening environments. I don't know how many DSP modes they have now, but at one time, they put several dozen or more in their top receivers!

this was the 1st Yammie DSP bo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_DSP-1

and here's a discussion on Yamaha's DSP presence channels -

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=41243

all the CE companies jumped on board putting their own version in receivers but the difference is they didn't do the music venue modeling, just put varying amounts of reverb, delays & used names like Action & SciFi that have no real meaning to the user. to make the issue even more complicated, Pioneer & other companies put in a setting so the user could modify the reverb effect, increase or decrease it this makes just listening to music or a movie even more cumbersome!

IMHO, for the most part these reverb modes have outlived their usefulness, hardly anyone really uses them and if they do, they are most likely degrading the sound they paid good money to get with hi-rez music & Blu-ray soundtracks. they could do really useful things with the freed up processing power, like more advanced room correction

the only one I occasionally used & don't use at all now, was Monofilm, to give a little extra oomph to the center channel. but even then, you can make the sound fuller by just switching to Stereo.

I hope Pioneer & other companies have the courage to finally get rid of most of them - they are confusing to the owner & don't really add to the surround experience unless someone deliberately wants their room to sound like a tin can! I can see keeping 3 or 4 specifically for music - 1) simulating live music played in concert halls & clubs & 2) competing with Yamaha. but get rid of the rest & at least give the music ones names like "Music Hall Far Field Listening" or "Jazz Club Near Field".

I wouldn't shed a tear if most of them went away
Edited by ss9001 - 2/6/13 at 5:28am

There are 126 pages in this thread, so I don't have time to go through all of them. I don't know if this has been discussed already, but if it has, please excuse me.

I have a Pioneer VSX-32, which is 7.1, but also has outputs for Front Wides or Front Heights. I have Front Wides connected, as well as the normal 7.1. I cannot listen to all 9 speakers at the same time. If I am playing a 5.1 Blu-Ray, sound comes out of the fronts, center, surrounds, and rear surrounds. I don't know if the receiver is sending the same sound to the surrounds and rear surrounds, or if there is some kind of processing being done to send different sounds. I assume it is the same sound.

If I get a SC-57, which is 9.1 or 9.2, will I get sound out of all 9 speakers, and will this be done when I listen to 5.1, 7.1 or 2-channel music? I would like there to be sound coming from all 9 speakers when I watch Blu-Ray movies in 5.1 or 7.1.

If I watch a 5.1 movie, will the sound going to the surrounds be output to both the surrounds and rear surrounds, and will there be sound going to both the fronts and front wides? And, will it be the same sound going to the fronts and front wides?

I'm sure someone with better knowledge will correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see the answers would be...

1. Yes
2. Yes it can be depending on which sound settings you have.
3. Yes you will have sound from all 9 speakers
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Yes

I am setting up my new home theater with the SC-55 and have installed a passive Jamo sub and a Jamo sub amp, connected through sub 1. I connected with a Y connector out of the SC-55 to a double audio cable and then into the right and left inputs on the sub amp. When I first turned it on, there was a hum (for about 10 seconds) and then quiet. The sub is a dual voice coil speaker and I had the voice coils jumped in parallel. Using the MCACC setup microphone, the system did not seem to detect the sub. Does MCACC check the sub? It went through the test and came back stating that the front and center speakers were out of phase, and said to check the wiring. Of course the wiring is all red to red and black to black, and it sounds fine, so I did not change anything. The speakers are B&W with dual terminals which I have jumped red to red and black to black (not bi-amped). Menu screen asks "Retry" or "Next", so I chose Next and the test continued. Since I don't have my side/rear speakers installed in my ceiling yet, the receiver blinked on those icons and then the sub icon and continued as though none of those were present (those icons disappeared).

I went into the audio menu and realized it was set up with no sub, so I changed the system to include the sub, changed the center and front speaker settings from Large to Small, and ran the test with the same result. Receiver sub crossover and sub amp crossover are set at 80. I rewired the sub speaker with the voice coils in series with the same result. Thinking that I may have blown something in the receiver when the speaker was wired in parallel, I tried receiver sub 2 with the same result. The Jamo sub amp fuse seems to be fine. My question is, Does MCACC check the sub? Is the sub so low frequency that I just won't hear it with most TV sound output? I am going to try Muse song Madness from my ipod, which should include some low frequency sound. Then I am going to install the rear ceiling speakers and rerun MCACC.

I bought this receiver as a demo model at a steep discount but with added four year warranty from Best Buy, but it did not come with a manual or the AVNavigator disc. Do I need that? I printed out the manual, and have been studying it. Also, It seems the remote they gave me (AXD7668) has a few buttons which are identified differently than in the picture in the manual. For instance, the Phase CTRL button shown in the manual is not present on my remote. There is a Phase button, which I tried, thinking maybe the receiver was set up with the speaker signal out of phase, but that button did not seem to do anything. (tried pushing Receiver button, then Phase several times). Help would be appreciated.

If the sub is dual voice coil, why would you split the output at the SC55, sending two parallel feeds and jump the sub?

Why would you apply both crossovers? How about running one at highest possible values, then set the other to the desired crossover point?

Was the sub producing sound before you entered MCACC setup?
Edited by Terrya - 2/8/13 at 12:04pm

I may be getting closer to understanding the system. One thing I did, for her sake, is to run two HDMI cables from her Oppo blue-ray/universal player, configuring two inputs on the SC55. One for music. One for blu-ray movies. This way each input can be configured independently. But I have a question and I'm sure it's in the manual somewhere but I've been unable to determine the answer definitively. I assumed that I could configure a default/sticky input mode, but so far I haven't found how to do that. Instead it looks as if whatever modes were last used stick upon restart. Do I have that right?

More about modes. Before my friend passed away he was using Cinema THX for blu-ray. I'm assuming he experimented and liked this best, so I'm leaving it as is for now. I have the music input configured using stream direct. She has lots of multi-channel SACD and DVD-A music and they sound great this way. Two channel sounds great this way too. The only caveat is that two channel music will render in two channel, and for ambient music (not close listening) my sense is she'd rather involve all speakers in a faux surround mode. I was trying to avoid her having to push additional buttons, but the only workaround I can think of is to configure a coaxial input, but if I do that she can't also see the display, and some of this two channel music will be Pandora through the Oppo, so she'll need to see the display. Okay, as I type this I'm wondering if I can configure the audio input through coax and video input through one of the HDMI inputs simultaneously. Back to the manual, or maybe back to her house to check out the setup menu further.
Edited by Terrya - 2/8/13 at 9:39am

Everything I have read says that if you put each channel through a different voice coil of the same sub that it will sound crappy. I am just learning here. As far as crossovers, I could set the sub amp higher than the receiver setting, which is 80 for THX sound, but that has no bearing on my questions. I followed Crutchfield's diagram for a two channel, double voice coil sub setup, which suggests wiring the two voice coils in series to protect the amp.

As I said, the only thing out of the sub was a hum for 10 seconds. I turned its power off, and the hum stopped. I checked the output terminals and the hum did not start again when I turned it back on. It is possible there was a single copper strand crossing from one terminal to the other and if so, I figured that is why the hum happened.

As far as whether it was producing any sound before, this a new install, so no it has never produced sub sound.

I am still baffled about the out of phase message. I was hoping someone who knows the SC-55 inside out would advise me. By the way, I hooked up my rear ceiling speakers, and the MCACC system does not see them either.

After spending all afternoon installing my rear surround speakers in my ceiling and then them not working I was bummed. After looking at the manual again, I realized I had them connected to the Rear Surround terminals - not the Surround terminals. Sub still doesn't work, but all the rest work now and all are "Reverse Phase" (?). Since all are connected red to red and black to black, I am still wondering if the SC-55 output is out of phase and can be changed with the remote or on the front of the receiver.

My point about the sub is, why do you need two inputs if the sub is jumped? Also, why did you include this info about your crossover if you are telling me now that it has no bearing on your question? You're the one who brought it up. The message I'm getting here is to help you only in the way you want to be helped.

Moving on.........

Chill, man. Look, I am not trying to pick a fight with you here. In your reply to my post, you asked several questions, and I felt I owed you answers because you asked them. You, on the other hand, did not answer any of my questions, because you must not have that specific knowledge of the SC-55. I was hoping someone who was very familiar with the SC-55 could answer the specific questions I asked. I appreciate that you are trying to help. For example, the message that all speakers are Reverse Phase. I have to believe that there is a setting in the SC-55 that can be changed to reverse the phase of all signals being put out. I was hoping that someone on the SC-55 forum could tell me exactly what I need to know.

Regarding my sub question, the sub amp has a right and left input, so I came out of Sub 1 on the SC-55 with a Y and passed the signal along to the sub amp split in two because I had a high quality double RCA cable. I input it to the right and left channel of the sub amp and then set the sub amp to Bridge, assuming that each channel would get the same signal. Rather than wire the two voice coils in series, I suppose I could have run a four wire cable to my sub speaker, but that would require re-fishing another two wire through to it I figure. The fact that there seems to be no output from the sub is puzzling - possibly a simple fix of changing a receiver setting? Thanks for trying to help, but let's see if someone out there knows this amp's operation better than either of us.

So I bought an used SC-57...
Bad move: The thing is broken
What can be wrong when it shows no picture from the connected source the first time I turn it on?
I have to turn it off and then turn it off again
After that, no problems
But then when I turn it off it can take up to five seconds to turn completely off (the lights in the display doesn't go off at the same time)
Weird, right...
At least there is warranty on it
But what is causing this behaviour?
Thanks
Jakob

how & where do you have the mic located?

"how" meaning - where's is it aimed? did you use a tripod, or place it in the seat or on the seat back, some other arrangement?
"where" meaning - where is the mic located in the room?

are you in the room when you activate the calibration? sitting next to it, by chance holding it?

where is the mic in relation to the ceiling speakers? and do you hear test tones from those ceiling speakers when running it?

Well you are not crazy and Pioneer did sneak in a fix for the HMG. Pause now works!

Wonder whaat else snuck in on this firmware.....

The surround speakers work now that I have them connected to Surround - not to Rear Surround. For the MCACC, I had the mic on the top of the couch seat back centered on the sound system. I am sitting next to it, to the side a bit. The ceiling speakers are directly overhead (above the couch), about 10 ft apart. I am not blocking the direct path to the mic. The test results are that all speakers are "Reverse Phase", with a Check Your Wiring message. The sub is still not detected. Thanks for asking these questions. I hope you can shed some light on this.

^^
1) if there's a sub present, MCACC will detect it by sending a test tone over the sub 1/2 outputs, which btw are Y'd together - there is only 1 true sub/LFE output with 2 jacks. if the subs produce the test tone then it will set sub to Yes. there's nothing you the user have to do, running Auto MCACC. you can try manually setting sub to Yes, but from your posts I think you've tried that.

2) the fact that you got hum from the sub amp then nothing is not a good sign, IMO. you may have a shorted or defective cable going to the amp or a wonky Y connector. hopefully, its as simple as that. but it's also possible the amp blew with the paralleled sub drivers. connecting speakers together or bridging amps incorrectly is a recipe for presenting too low of an impedance to the amp. parallel cuts the impedance in half, series adds the impedance. connecting your subs together in parallel is a very bad idea, especially to save running an extra speaker wire.

I looked at Jamo website and didn't find a true passive sub, I did find one that's part passive & part active but assuming it's a true passive sub, next...

3) hum can be a ground loop, not uncommon with subs, and you solve it by putting a cheap calrad isolation transformer on the sub cable before it enters the sub (sub amp) I have never used a passive sub so can't speak to anything specific to your Jamo gear. usually, tho, sub amps with l/r inputs have them for line level connections or speaker level connections but if only 1 needs to be used, some just have you connect to the left jack. since the sub LFE output is "mono" not stereo subs (1 sub for each front sprkr & using line level connections), you'd really only need the 1 connection.

I found a manual for their 201 sub amp & snipped a page with the connections for passive subs

2-10-2013 2-46-56 PM.jpg 144k .jpg file

I also found this by doing a search on jamo amps -

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/how-to-connect-jamo-sub-to-amp
this may be for their conventional subs but it's more info for you.

I assume this is how you connected it?

if so, you didn't need to add any Y cable to the PIoneer sub out, since sub 1 & 2 are internally already connected. you could connect both sub 1 and sub 2 to the left & right amp line inputs with their own cables, set the amp to low pass, and set the low pass crossover to the highest setting, 150hz for this model. for that matter, you really don't need to use 2 sub inputs at all if you select the mono setting on the amp! since the sub LFE output from the Pioneer is mono'd already, you really only need 1 connection from the Pioneer to the amp. the only reason for 2 is if you were using line level connections to peal off the bass freq's from the front preamp outs, and then send the rest to the fronts. hardly anybody does that with a typical HR receiver & speaker setups.

connect the passive subs the way it's shown in the diagram for bridged amp mode with 2 speaker wires, each with its own red & black, to each sub (I guess you can say that's 4 wires total, but speaker wiring has the red & black in 1 "cable" so I consider that 2 total) unless I'm missing something, I have no idea what you are mean or had in mind for 4 cables!

keep in mind that bridging now renders this as a 8 ohm minimum load amp. if your passive subs are lower than 8 ohm rating, then you're asking for trouble. from this page, and your description, you should not have tried wiring the passive subs in parallel!! just follow this diagram if it's your amp. by connecting the subs' 2 "voice coils" in parallel, you may have or could damage the amp from halving the impedance to 4 ohms or less, when the bridged amp is only supposed to see an 8 ohm load!

4) can you plug the jamo amp into something else to try it? any kind of receiver?

5) you were given correct advice on the crossover by another poster. you use ONLY the one in the receiver if you connect a sub to the receiver's sub LFE outputs. doubling the crossovers will result in a gap in the bass frequencies the sub reproduces. All sub companies I know of instruct the user that using a LFE output, you bypass the sub's internal crossover by turning it OFF or setting it to its highest freq.

6) out of phase... having MCACC detect every one of your speakers that way is kind of unusual. but if they are wired correctly, ignore the message. you have the mic in a proper, at least reasonable position, and while I wouldn't stand next to it myself, I don't think that would cause a problem, just not be as accurate. keep the mic aimed directly at the ceiling, preferably on a tripod on the sweet spot, or put it on the seat back but not in the seat itself where butt is it may be your specific B& W speakers or the way speakers interact with the room.

no simple receiver setting I know of, if you already tried setting sub to Yes in Manual MCACC & the Pioneer crossover to 80 Hz as a starting point. your ceiling speakers may require a higher crossover, look at their specs and use their lowest rated bass as a guide - if it's 100hz, then you'll need to set the crossover for all your speakers to 100hz.

your wiring doesn't seem a conventional or optimum hookup. if you wired the 2 sub drivers together to avoid running another set of speaker wiring, that's not a great idea.

my advise is take out all that caca and get back to a basic 1 RCA cable hookup with another known good cable, un-bridge the amps and connect to only ONE sub voice coil. then try it. you can add the 2nd sub driver once you get a known basic setup that works.

I think you may need to re-think what you're doing plus re-read the MCACC section in the Pioneer manual. the Phase Control button you mentioned has nothing to do with the out of phase MCACC "error". the Phase Control feature changes the group delays from each speaker so that sound from all the drivers arrives at listening position at same time, hence "in phase". the manual describes this so I think you're just randomly trying things because you haven't figured out how the receiver works yet. and if you re-read the MCACC chapters, you'll know that the Pioneer has NO button for reversing phase, or any setting in the setup to do that & you'll learn what Phase Control is about

sorry, not being critical but it's clear that you're new to Pioneer & if I were in your shoes I'd be re-reading the 2 chapters on using MCACC and probably your Jamo sub, too

it's also possible the receiver is defective. unfortunately, you have too many issues going on & I can't tell if it's the setup, wiring, damaged sub amp, defective receiver. if it's still within the 30 day window, I'd consider returning it for a new one just to see if it's the receiver or something else in your setup - even if it costs you more. or I'd just get one of the new models, say the SC-65 or SC-67 and be done with it. they aren't that much different than the SC-55 but its possible your "good deal" is a lemon!

now I've spent > 1 hr on this reply looking up stuff for you on a product I've never used nor would use but unless you have a bad cable (possible), the Y connector isn't making good contact (possible), blew the amp (possible), blew the sub preamp output on the receiver, or receiver was defective (possible) you most likely have something weird in your setup.

I have used MCACC for 10 years, and it's never failed to detect my subs. there was no magic setting I had to do, it just worked in Auto MCACC. the only times I lost output to the subs was with a cable I have that very occasionally shorted out in one connector.
Edited by ss9001 - 2/10/13 at 2:27pm