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JRiver Media Center Owner's Thread - Page 28

post #811 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwobbrock View Post

I tried that forum in the past and never had any luck finding anything.....too damn confusing. They leave their custome support to all of the users, email support or phone support would at least make sense!

I've had very good success with problems by using their Forum. Many very knowledgeable and helpful people there. My suggestion would be to make a simple post explaining the problem, and don't complain about how they do things there when you are asking for help.

Good luck.
Rod
post #812 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwobbrock View Post

I tried that forum in the past and never had any luck finding anything.....too damn confusing. They leave their custome support to all of the users, email support or phone support would at least make sense!

I suggested a more typical problem tracking system. To whidch they were very cool, candidly they were hostile to the idea. They want to work on what they want to work on. I thought it strange as even freen open source stuff often uses problem management systems.
post #813 of 1119
I've also had extremely good luck on the forum. My questions are usually always answered quickly by a developer or at least someone with a lot of knowledge. In fact, I think JRiver by far has the best support of any HTPC frontend. Good luck getting help from Microsoft with WMC.
post #814 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwobbrock View Post

I was reading the jRiver MC forum on headfi, and someone posted about upgrading to MC18, and that there were sonic improvements to be had. So, I decided to do the upgrade, from my MC16. Turns out to be a big mistake....I connected my Sansa Fuze +, and copied a couple of albums over. When the copy was done, I tried to close the Fuze, and my mouse was frozen.....had to do a hard shut down and reboot.
Later, after I checked all of my setting from MC16 to MC18, I was listening to music, Sting, "The Soul Cages", to be exact. All of a sudden my screen distorted, locked, and I got my first blue screen of death. Had this computer over a year with no problems running MC16, so I rebooted, this time listening to the same album in MC16, which luckily I kept both versions. Later I tried MC18, same sequence of events led to another BSOD. I finnished the night listening to MC16. Now this morning, I immediately went back to MC18, same album.....same problem, am now listening to MC16!
Now what do I do, no phone support, and jRiver got my $24......how do I get a refund. I have been happy with MC for several years and I thought it was great, but they keep trying to get more money out of me every year asking me to do an upgrade because the new version is better. I am supposed to believe that?
Need help, stuck!

I feel your pain.

I have been using JRiver since MC8 and can appreciate how disappointed you are with MC18. As for sonic improvements, I have not noticed any difference between MC17 & MC18, in fact I really have not noticed any improvement since MC16 but that is pretty much down to using ASIO for the interface.

The last version of MC17 still has a few bugs but it works for me subject to making sure the picture gets sent to the right monitor (frustrating) and that is what I am presently running with. Your MC18 licence will work with MC17, you may wish to consider rolling back to MC17.

Perhaps we should name the new Flagship Bismark rolleyes.gif
post #815 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer View Post

As for sonic improvements, I have not noticed any difference between MC17 & MC18, in fact I really have not noticed any improvement since MC16 but that is pretty much down to using ASIO for the interface.

I wouldn't say that the audio quality is better. Bit-perfect is bit-perfect. The functionality is improving though as far as the DSP goes. For a DIY speaker guy the upgrade is well worth it. Personally, I haven't had any major issues since I upgraded. I'm not into video so I can't comment there.

AFAIK J River is a really small company. If they were doing phone and email tech support they probably wouldn't get anything done rolleyes.gif
post #816 of 1119
One thing they could do on the audio front is partner with Audyssey and full add room correction to MC. There is already PC versions of MultiEQ XT32 from other vendors.
post #817 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tong Chia View Post

. There is already PC versions of MultiEQ XT32 from other vendors.

Really? Who?
post #818 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Really? Who?

IK Multimedia, not for HT use but it proves it is possible.

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/arc/
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/arc/index.php?pp=arc-system-specs
post #819 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tong Chia View Post

IK Multimedia, not for HT use but it proves it is possible.
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/arc/
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/arc/index.php?pp=arc-system-specs

Of course it's possible! A HT pre/pro is essentially a very very dumb computer.

There's also a european company that offers HT room correction. But it's ~$1000...

It's only a matter of time before Audyssey is easily available for HTPC's.
post #820 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Of course it's possible! A HT pre/pro is essentially a very very dumb computer.
There's also a european company that offers HT room correction. But it's ~$1000...
It's only a matter of time before Audyssey is easily available for HTPC's.

Problem is not the technology, up until now Audyssey IP is a closed package of DSP firmware, IK Multimedia is the first time they have let it out as a pure software module on a PC which greatly improves the chance of a small company like Jriver being able to add it to their product.
post #821 of 1119
If PC room correction is the goal I would aim a little higher than Audessey. Harman (among others) has put enough info into the public domain to reverse engineer a better solution.
post #822 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by augerpro View Post

If PC room correction is the goal I would aim a little higher than Audessey. Harman (among others) has put enough info into the public domain to reverse engineer a better solution.

Absolutely.

Among the others I have tried with are Audiolense and DiracLive.
There is also DRC .

The basic problem with the commercial stuff is they are many multiples of the cost of MC.
post #823 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer View Post

I concur with most of your sentiments. IMHO I think JRiver development has lost its way. To clarify that comment, I am a long time subscriber to JRiver and when the fee for version 18 became due I purchased a licence as I have done each year for many years in spite of the fact that future development ideas were pretty thin on the ground. As with all previous versions I decided to wait until Version 18 was listed as stable and last week it was officially announced that MC18 was the new flagship so I installed version 18 over version 17. Unfortunately I am unable to have V17 and V18 installed at the same time due to the remote control relying upon MC Core Commands.
Following the upgrade the first issue I found was that the command line MC18.exe /Mode Theater did not work any more. In fairness to development, although I did not get any response to reporting the issue, it was fixed in the next version just days later. Alas the problems did not stop , the next bug I have come across is that Auto Frame rate does not work with dual monitors:mad: (works fine with a single monitor)
I do not have cable but I am still forced to use WMC for recording off air content due to the poor facilities offered within JRiver. Why didn't JRiver stay with the Version 17 base code and simply give us the sort of PVR functionality found within WMC? It seems to me that Version 18 has been released way to early and I can only assume that the aforementioned review was made with MC V17 which I will now need to roll back to. For me V18 has been a retrograde step (one step forward and two steps back) and I suspect that much of the new software development has been re-writing the program core code to enable porting to an IOS environment.
Bottom line, I expect a product that is announced as the latest flagship to be thoroughly tested. I want to use the product, not continue to be a beta tester. Needless to say I am presently NOT a happy camper and am beginning to wonder what MC18 is going to offer over MC17. I have no issue with the annual license fee, it is worth paying just to keep MC17 up to date but JRiver need to stop using the customer base as beta testers. By all means have beta releases but make sure you have a fully tested baseline version that customers can rely on before making grand announcements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

+1 or maybe plus 20....; there are so many problems with 18 they will never figure them all out. There obsession with platform independence is a business decision but really fix the freaking base product before you try to port it all over the planet. The whole Theater Mode LiveTV/DVR barely works at all. They do a release create 100 bugs, fix 50 rinse, repeat endlessly. Meanwhile Windows Media Center just works like an appliance. I can't even get the Windows remote to work reliably in Theater Mode with Live TV. This worked fine for ages. They broke it in the last couple of patches on 17 and I never know if I can even watch Live TV from one release to another. So much potential, so little availability! If you bring it up they never acknowledge it.

I am sure there are many like minded. Alas we are probably the minority since most users are operating with single displays and will never experience the image appearing on the wrong monitor or auto frame rate failing to work on the second monitor etc wink.gif
post #824 of 1119
If there is a problem with JRiver Media Center, and we can reproduce it, we will fix it. Just post the details on our forum.

We want you to be happy with MC, and we want to fix any known problems.
post #825 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwobbrock View Post

I was reading the jRiver MC forum on headfi, and someone posted about upgrading to MC18, and that there were sonic improvements to be had. So, I decided to do the upgrade, from my MC16. Turns out to be a big mistake....I connected my Sansa Fuze +, and copied a couple of albums over. When the copy was done, I tried to close the Fuze, and my mouse was frozen.....had to do a hard shut down and reboot.
Later, after I checked all of my setting from MC16 to MC18, I was listening to music, Sting, "The Soul Cages", to be exact. All of a sudden my screen distorted, locked, and I got my first blue screen of death. Had this computer over a year with no problems running MC16, so I rebooted, this time listening to the same album in MC16, which luckily I kept both versions. Later I tried MC18, same sequence of events led to another BSOD. I finnished the night listening to MC16. Now this morning, I immediately went back to MC18, same album.....same problem, am now listening to MC16!

Posted this problem on Interact forum, and it was suggested that my problem was caused by my hardware. I have been running MC16 since it came out, on this computer, with never and lockup or BSOD, until I installed MC18. Response from Interact and JimH was that I needed to update video drivers, tried everything they suggested to no avail, and now I am reading posts where others are having the same types of problems. Ends up, JimH is telling others with the same problem......MC18 is not compatible with a lot of hardware/video cards. My advice is, go ahead and download and install MC18 and you have a thirty day free trial.....but don't make a purchase until you can verify that you computer is compatible, ie, no lockups, screen freezes or BSOD.

In the meantime I am back to MC16 which has been wonderful and problem free for me as long as I have been using it!
post #826 of 1119
As several people said, on our forum, a blue screen is a hardware and or driver problem. In this case, a "glass" skin triggers it. A non glass skin works fine.

We fix our problems. We can't fix other company's problems.
post #827 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by jriver View Post

As several people said, on our forum, a blue screen is a hardware and or driver problem. In this case, a "glass" skin triggers it. A non glass skin works fine.
We fix our problems. We can't fix other company's problems.

It is what is is, incompatiblity MC18 vs a lot of hardware out there....it will work on some computers, but not on alot of others. My point is try before you purchase!
post #828 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by jriver View Post

If there is a problem with JRiver Media Center, and we can reproduce it, we will fix it. Just post the details on our forum.
We want you to be happy with MC, and we want to fix any known problems.

Respectfully the issue is that when JRiver releases a new product version it should undergo sufficient testing to eliminate fundamental bugs. This is not part of the JRiver development team mentality, the product is released and we the user are being relied upon to report problems. I have no doubt that the development team will ultimately nail the most significant anomalies quite quickly but don't you think it would have been a better idea to fully test MC18 before making an announcement that MC18 is the new flagship? Had MC18 been tested even briefly in a dual monitor environment before release the initial bugs I found could have been eliminated.

I purchased my MC18 licence as soon as it became available but waited until your recent announcement before installing it over MC17 only to find fundamental problems like MC18.exe /mode theatre did not work. This command is fundamental to using MC in a remote controlled theatre environment. The next bug I found is that Auto Frame rate does not work on a secondary monitor. IMHO JRiver needs to STOP pushing out new versions every week and concentrate on making a baseline that is as bug free as possible. The command line bug was fixed within a couple of days of my report and I do not doubt that the Frame Rate bug will be quashed just as quickly but that is not the point, users want stability. I have no issue with beta versions being made available for those parties that are not relying on JRiver every day for their visual entertainment but we need a stable baseline and presently MC17 is not perfect but it is a close as we can get to it right now.

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe JRiver is one of the best media players around excepting the demise of MC18. IMHO MC17 is JRivers flagship until such time as the bugs stop accumulating in the MC18 development thread.

If you really want to win over current as well as new JRiver users, please consider incorporating a PVR function that is as easy and reliable to use as WMC! I see this request over and over again but instead of addressing this issue the development team has concentrated in offering some sort of obscure audio feature that they felt was more pressing. We the user would like to be able to use JRiver for both film and tv, presently most of us use JRiver for music and films and use WMC for TV recording and playback.

I write software for a living and I do understand the development cycle. One of the most important points in developing a product is market research and listening to your customer base.
Edited by Beamer - 12/29/12 at 2:51pm
post #829 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwobbrock View Post

It is what is is, incompatiblity MC18 vs a lot of hardware out there....it will work on some computers, but not on alot of others. My point is try before you purchase!

With respect, a good number of the MC18 issues have nothing to do with hardware compatibility, they are simply bugs that should not have been present when the product was officially announced.
post #830 of 1119
Beamer,
I just looked at your recent posts on our board. Is the automatic frame rate feature the problem you're talking about?
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76645.msg519567#msg519567

If so, please be patient. We fix anything that can be fixed. That report was made just as we were shutting down for a week,

If it's something else, please find it on our forum and bump it..
post #831 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer View Post

With respect, a good number of the MC18 issues have nothing to do with hardware compatibility, they are simply bugs that should not have been present when the product was officially announced.

+1
post #832 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Hansen View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer View Post

As for sonic improvements, I have not noticed any difference between MC17 & MC18, in fact I really have not noticed any improvement since MC16 but that is pretty much down to using ASIO for the interface.

I wouldn't say that the audio quality is better. Bit-perfect is bit-perfect.

Bit-perfect is bit-perfect, but bit-perfect is not the same as real-time audio playback quality.

Since the beginning of digital audio, most audible differences in sound quality have been due to timing differences in playback of the same bits.

In fact, most of the perceived "warm and smooth" quality of analog versus the "hard and cold" quality of digital is due to improper timing in playback of digital "bits". Sophisticated reclocking systems (that tend to be expensive due to low volume of sales relative to ipods and earbuds) can remove that "hard and cold" quality of sound that has been around for 30 years. Recently some inexpensive products with reclocking have entered the market (HRT, Schiit, V-Link), but even with those, some players - such as Jriver and cPlay - ofter subtle sonic improvements.

I haven't done an A-B comparison of earlier vs later, but I suspect that the introduction of 64-bit audio path in Jriver was the major sonic improvement in Media Center.
post #833 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenstuart View Post

Bit-perfect is bit-perfect, but bit-perfect is not the same as real-time audio playback quality.
Since the beginning of digital audio, most audible differences in sound quality have been due to timing differences in playback of the same bits.
In fact, most of the perceived "warm and smooth" quality of analog versus the "hard and cold" quality of digital is due to improper timing in playback of digital "bits". Sophisticated reclocking systems (that tend to be expensive due to low volume of sales relative to ipods and earbuds) can remove that "hard and cold" quality of sound that has been around for 30 years. Recently some inexpensive products with reclocking have entered the market (HRT, Schiit, V-Link), but even with those, some players - such as Jriver and cPlay - ofter subtle sonic improvements.
I haven't done an A-B comparison of earlier vs later, but I suspect that the introduction of 64-bit audio path in Jriver was the major sonic improvement in Media Center.

What is the point you are trying to make? you state that you have not made a comparison and yet you challenge my personal opinion!

The audio side of my system consists of Denon AVP A1HD, (Latest Audyssey MultEQ-XT 32 calibration system), Bryston 4B SST Power Amps, Matrix X-SPDIF 32/192 XMOS high-quality digital interface (Bridge), Aurum Cantus Harmony Speakers. While my system may not be the best in the world, it has proved itself more than capable of differentiating between earlier versions of MC.

I say again, I really have not noticed any improvement since MC16 but that is pretty much down to using ASIO for the interface. This is my personal opinion, I am not stating fact. If your ears can discern a difference and improvement between MC17 & MC18 I am pleased for you, I cannot.

In respect to re-clocking, for the uninitiated, this is probably one of the most important aspects of specifying a PC for high quality stereo re-production. The Matrix X-SPDIF 32/192 XMOS could be considered the heart of my system and relatively speaking is the most inexpensive component. Its job is to simply move data via the USB port and re-clock it into the SPDIF input of the AVP.
Edited by Beamer - 12/30/12 at 5:03am
post #834 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by jriver View Post

Beamer,
I just looked at your recent posts on our board. Is the automatic frame rate feature the problem you're talking about?
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76645.msg519567#msg519567
If so, please be patient. We fix anything that can be fixed. That report was made just as we were shutting down for a week,
If it's something else, please find it on our forum and bump it..

I'm not sure if you are ignoring the bigger picture through lack of time or intentionally since you did not take on board any of my points. I have no urgency in getting my MC18 bugs fixed, I have reverted back to MC17 and am a happy camper once again. For me personally MC18 is simply a can of worms that I do not relish opening again. Aside from some cosmetic improvement in Theater mode It does not appear to offer much additional functionality over MC17.

Personally I would have preferred to pay my annual subscription (Yes, I consider JRiver subscription based to support its long term development) and continue to have MC17 supported with updates to madvr etc while MC18 was developed in the background.

Bottom line, look at the bigger picture not my personal bug list. I have stated before and will do so again JRiver MC17 is probably one of the best media players around but sucks as a TV PVR. Have you considered licensing parts of WMC from microsoft and porting them to JRiver MC? Many would be more than happy to pay an additional licence fee.

And yes, that was tongue in cheek wink.gif
Edited by Beamer - 12/30/12 at 5:05am
post #835 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwobbrock View Post

I tried that forum in the past and never had any luck finding anything.....too damn confusing. They leave their custome support to all of the users, email support or phone support would at least make sense!
I think all new users, which I realize you are not, should start by reading http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Category:Frequently_Asked_Questions I realize as well, that it's not specific to your problem. However, a lot of the questions I have asked on the forum were in the FAQ. Support is not perfect but the price is very low for what they offer and the speed at which the company responses to technology advances. None of the programs, I have purchased for 50 buck have telephone suppport, so that does not surprise me.
Edited by Bulldogger - 12/30/12 at 5:59am
post #836 of 1119
I had a power surge that blew out the PSU in a PC. I'm very unhappy with JRiver. They should have tested MC18 better so this wouldn't have happened. wink.gif
post #837 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenstuart View Post

Bit-perfect is bit-perfect, but bit-perfect is not the same as real-time audio playback quality.
Since the beginning of digital audio, most audible differences in sound quality have been due to timing differences in playback of the same bits.
In fact, most of the perceived "warm and smooth" quality of analog versus the "hard and cold" quality of digital is due to improper timing in playback of digital "bits". Sophisticated reclocking systems (that tend to be expensive due to low volume of sales relative to ipods and earbuds) can remove that "hard and cold" quality of sound that has been around for 30 years. Recently some inexpensive products with reclocking have entered the market (HRT, Schiit, V-Link), but even with those, some players - such as Jriver and cPlay - ofter subtle sonic improvements.
I haven't done an A-B comparison of earlier vs later, but I suspect that the introduction of 64-bit audio path in Jriver was the major sonic improvement in Media Center.

What is the point you are trying to make? you state that you have not made a comparison and yet you challenge my personal opinion!
You don't read as carefully as you choose equipment.

If you look at my post, you will see that I was replying to Nate's reply to your post, and not replying to your post.
post #838 of 1119
Quote:
If there is a problem with JRiver Media Center, and we can reproduce it, we will fix it. Just post the details on our forum.

We want you to be happy with MC, and we want to fix any known problems.

How about the complete silence regarding filter management for XP users and Jriver. I posted on the forum regarding this issue and did not receive 1 response to this. It's not even addressed in the FAQ. Without filter management, there is no chance to use MadVr within the software. I know Xp is old news. but works well for my applications. And your response IS............

MAk
post #839 of 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by racerxnet View Post

How about the complete silence regarding filter management for XP users and Jriver. I posted on the forum regarding this issue and did not receive 1 response to this. It's not even addressed in the FAQ. Without filter management, there is no chance to use MadVr within the software. I know Xp is old news. but works well for my applications. And your response IS............
MAk
DirectShow filter management in MC is done with Red October.

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Red_October

It works on XP as well.
post #840 of 1119
Quote:
DirectShow filter management in MC is done with Red October.

Tried it with MadVr and Nev's decoders. It was a no go. The White list was useless as it did not even list the proper decoders for MadVr playback. Looked at every conceivable thread regarding this set-up and us Xp users were all in the same boat. Care to post screen shots of a XP system using MAdVr for playback with 17?

MAK
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