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Recorder with HDMI Inputs? Yes it exists - Page 4

post #91 of 167
This product can be used for the same purpose as any other competitive sold on in us market. Any of those products including old vcr, camcorder, dvr or new tivo like device can be used in a way to uphold rules and regulations or go beyond. It is always up to the user, not the device. The copyrights were not established with a rise of high definition era of video broadcast, they were always there long before that. The likely reason why this recorder is not retailed is because it would probably violate some sneaky patents that belongs to one or two domestic manufacturers who obviously take advantage of this situation making you pay for just a convenience of using this "service" which should be free of charge as it used to be when EPG was available for free. What if I do not need convenience, rather prefer timer recording instead? My last hdd recorder purchased around 2005 made by Sony in Best Buy was great alternative to tivo's at the time allowing me to buffer and record shows from DirecTV withoth paying subscription. The corporation rules or patents do not make a law in this country. At least yet. I am not trying to raise a discussion about it. I have just noticed that almost every thread that include keywords hdtv and recording for some reason is perceived by many as some kind of voodoo. It is not and I would love to see other users of mini to share experience from its daily legal use. Cheers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i86time View Post

If it can do bit-for-bit I wonder if it retains any HDCP in the stream, thus not allowing the data to be copied to another device, like PC (...)

The TS files created by MINI are not playable on any other device, including PC. When playing outside the MINI, the playback picture is black and there is no audio. The only way to play it is to through MINI. Works as expected per recorder user's manual protecting recorded and copyrighted content from being played elsewhere.
As it goes to storage, you can connect standard external USB hard drive up to 2TB to use as additional space on the top of internal hard disk. cool.gif


Edited by esdwa - 11/18/12 at 3:04pm
post #92 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I do hope you meant deaf smile.gif
No I meant death!biggrin.gif

Now-a-days DVI can be fully compliant with HDCP. Recently I bought a 21.5 inch HP computer monitor and in the manual it states that it’s High-bandwidth digital content protection (HDCP) compliant on DVI. So I bought a HDMI to DVI adopter for $2 and sure enough my PC monitor will display the signal from my STB in full resolution. I don’t know if the programming is HDCP protected or not and I have no BD player to try it out. My monitor will allow up to 1920x1080p @ 60 frames per second via DVI and according to the manual the program can be HDCP protected.

I know this is only Wiki but..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection
Quote:
High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP; commonly, though incorrectly, referred to as High-Definition Copy(right) Protection) is a form of digital copy protection developed by Intel Corporation[1] to prevent copying of digital audio and video content as it travels across connections. Types of connections include popular ones such as DisplayPort (DP), Digital Visual Interface (DVI), and High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI), as well as less popular, or now defunct, protocols like Gigabit Video Interface (GVIF), and Unified Display Interface (UDI).

Maybe you’re right that HDCP protected material would not pass via DVI when DVI first came out. And of course DVI won’t carry audio and HDMI will.
post #93 of 167
DVI and HDMI both are names for physical interfaces that describe hardware. HDCP is protocol layer description that is not dependent on hardware layer therefore it can be implemented on any interface including DVI, HDMI, DP and anything further that does not exist yet but it may soon will. In Layman's term you may think about HDMI or DVI as equivalent to PC hardware while HDCP would be a PC software.
post #94 of 167
^^^
Yes and don’t forget HD-SDI, which is also uncompressed baseband digital but for professional use – capable of running longer lines.

But I think this quote by Kelson applies
“””any unit legally sold in the US that has an HDMI input or output must have an HMDI license -- terms of that license require implementation of HDCP”””

Were as a DVI “input” does not require the HDCP software keys. Of course what will happen is - a DVI input without the HDCP software keys will black out a signal carrying HDCP protected signals. So when buying any gear with a DVI input make sure it’s HDCP compliant.

As for HD-SDI it’s rare that pro gear in production shops and broadcast facilities with SDI will have the HDCP software keys built into that gear as most of those shops don’t deal with consumer level material and use the SDI lines for in-house productions. Of course running a consumer Blu-Ray disc via that broadcast and production gear would black out the signal. I wonder if this “semi-pro” BD recorder with SDI input has the HDCP software keys? Here is the JVC BD recorder.
Edited by Super Eye - 11/18/12 at 8:04pm
post #95 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by profhat View Post

I'm sure that someone will solve that , still the MTV7000 is a great alternative for people who need to save LIVE events using the HDMI output of his/her Satellite box, or just record games from his/her new console.
Remains to be seen. It's not an alternative for anyone in the US if they can't buy one.
post #96 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

Now-a-days DVI can be fully compliant with HDCP.
Yes, that has never been a technical issue. The DVI video signal is essentially the same as HDMI's. The distinction is that the DVI spec. treats HDCP compliance as optional whereas the HDMI spec. mandates HDCP compliance and enforces that mandate by the license.
post #97 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by esdwa View Post

This product can be used for the same purpose as any other competitive sold on in us market. [...]

Not necessarily: your (and profhat's) inexhaustible enthusiasm reflects your personal satisfaction with the MTV7000 capabilities, but the features that thrill you remain unappealing or incomplete to others. You keep harping on points like "I don't want to pay subscription fees" and "I don't like copyright restrictions," then you turn right around and accept MTV7000 limitations that would be infuriating to large numbers of other North American members who are hoping for a fully-functional Hi-Def replacement for DVD/HDD recorders. You undercut your own argument by revealing

Quote:
The TS files created by MINI are not playable on any other device, including PC. When playing outside the MINI, the playback picture is black and there is no audio. The only way to play it is to through MINI. Works as expected per recorder user's manual protecting recorded and copyrighted content from being played elsewhere. As it goes to storage, you can connect standard external USB hard drive up to 2TB to use as additional space on the top of internal hard disk. cool.gif

So in other words, unless I'm misunderstanding you, the MTV7000 is about as useless for archiving as a subscription recorder from satellite or cable!confused.gif

It can't send generic files to a PC for capture and future playback on any random device? It can't save as generic files on external USB drives? It can only save files in a proprietary format that only the MTV7000 can play, either internally or on external expansion drives? It is fully compliant with HDCP? Then what makes this any more useful than a subscription PVR? What am I not understanding about your enthusiasm? I'm not being sarcastic or disrespectful, I honestly don't see what advantage you think you're getting that makes this unit worth the price and import hassles.

Since it records in a closed proprietary format not playable on any other device, then there is actually no advantage over the supposed "risk" of buying a closed TiVO lifeime subscription. For cable subscribers or off-air users, the chances of TiVO going out of business are the same or better than PixelMagic going out of business, but at least the expense of the TiVO gets you the integrated timer grid, simultaneous recording on multiple channels, and ability to network to your PC to archive recordings as flexible generic video files. The TiVO is not so appealing for satellite subscribers, I'll agree with you 100% there, but if you're going to get stuck with a proprietary closed recorder system anyway the price of the MTV7000 would pay for 3 to 4 years of satellite PVR subscription service (which again at least offers integrated EPG recording from multiple simultaneous channels).

Considering the Hong Kong spec of the MTV7000, if it is a closed system as you describe then you are overstating the case of "open" Asian copyright handling versus "draconian" North America: according to you, there is no functional difference between a subscription PVR and the MTV7000. Both are closed systems that don't permit archiving as generic files. About all you're getting from the MTV7000 over the satellite PVR is ability to record PS3 game play: if that is your top priority then the MTV7000 makes sense. But if your priority is recording movies and TV, the advantage goes to the multiple tuners and integrated EPG of the satellite PVR.

At $500 plus associated import costs, the MTV7000 is not so fantastically cheaper than the satellite PVR subscription fees to make it a worthwhile alternative for general users: it adds the PS3 recording feature, but loses the crucial multiple tuners and EPG. Again, my apologies if I am misunderstanding your description of the MTV7000 capabilities: if it DOES in fact connect to a PC to permit saving satellite recordings as generic video files, then it definitely would be worth compromising on the EPG and multiple tuners (tho cable subscribers would still be better off with the TiVO).

Quote:
I have just noticed that almost every thread that include keywords hdtv and recording for some reason is perceived by many as some kind of voodoo. It is not

It isn't voodoo, its just a big pain in North America because our fractious cable and satellite companies are all incompatible with each other and hostile to third-party recorders. Americans and Canadians satisfied with their off-air reception have several good HTPC alternatives available for recording, as well as TiVO, cable users can exploit the TiVO if they want PC file connectivity. But satellite is totally locked down: no realistic alternative to their subscription PVRs unless you cobble together an HTPC connection to the analog component outputs of the decoder box.

We're in the minority of North Americans: four out of five people in USA/Canada have no interest whatever in saving or repeat viewing of TV shows or most movies. Nearly all of them are satisfied with closed cable/satellite systems with no archiving ability, and most actually prefer the PVR subscription economics to the upfront purchase costs and convenience limitations of third-party recorders. Other parts of the world have more coherent broadcast, EPG and satellite standards/regulations that made BluRay/HDD and HDTV recorders feasible (including Hong Kong where the MTV7000 itself is obviously a much more compelling and useful device).
Edited by CitiBear - 11/19/12 at 5:25am
post #98 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

(...)

Thanks for interesting opinion. My advise is simple. If you are currently or formerly a tivo user looking for a tivo-like pvr which would also have ability to create generic files and share these outside your household and be able to keep EPG ability tivo offers, the mini is definitely not an option for you. But if you never used a tivo, do not care about EPG but you're smart enough to setup a simple time recording, want to have a free choice from which source you want to buffer/timeshift/record whether it is any of cable/sat/stream providers not worrying about paying subscription fees/large premium or loosing your "lifetime" privileges for reasons you can't control and share it within your household between multiple mini devices including tablets, PC and smartphones on the go without limitation of the storage space, then mini is definitely something for you to consider.
biggrin.gif
Edited by esdwa - 11/19/12 at 7:26am
post #99 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by esdwa View Post


The TS files created by MINI are not playable on any other device, including PC. When playing outside the MINI, the playback picture is black and there is no audio. The only way to play it is to through MINI. Works as expected per recorder user's manual protecting recorded and copyrighted content from being played elsewhere.
As it goes to storage, you can connect standard external USB hard drive up to 2TB to use as additional space on the top of internal hard disk. cool.gif

Hummm that's new for me. The "old" MTV7000D (the big one with full composite/component inputs, but without 3D support) seemed capable of exporting records using the LAN and the USB port. Maybe a new firmware? Isn't a codec thing, right?

The other remaining issue here, is many people outside of HK want to know if this machine can work for more of a week before to go KAPUT. Just in case, I'll cross my fingers. biggrin.gif
post #100 of 167
Indeed I confirm that TS files created by mini are encrypted. They can be viewed on PC or Mac using MagicTV PC/Mac streaming client that can be obtained from 3rd party which also sells android app for streaming MagicTV on the go. This client is a small (18kB) Java application which controls most of mini functions through LAN/WAN and make it streaming decrypted content straight to user selected media player on your PC. I used recommended VLC player but other with streaming capability should also work. I tried to test file created while recording not copyrighted material using my laptop as player where I hooked it up through hdmi to one of mini inputs. The result was the same, no direct TS file play is possible. Cheers cool.gif

VLC media information when playing file directly from hdd


Same file but streamed from mini to VLC

Edited by esdwa - 11/20/12 at 3:31am
post #101 of 167
It would be VERY NICE IF WE in
AMERICA at LEAST HAD a CHANCE to PURCHASE at OUR WILL,
and NOT be FORCED to do with OUT since
Japan, New Zeland, Austraiia, etc, GET TO HAVE one at THERE WILL!
It would be NICE IF the SUPER ULTRA RICH Million Dollar Movie Stars,
would stop being so GREEDY, and allow us, the PEOPLE who SPEND the $10-$20 per Movie ticket,
record OUR SHOWS, and OUR Concerts, IN OUR HOMES!
I DON`T Think that Capreo MR. TITANIC NEEDS ANOTHER MANSION, or Yacht!
I STRONGLY Believe IN Capitalism,
BUT I ALSO, STRONGLY BELIEVE IN THE
FAIR RIGHT TO RECORD ACT!
EVERYTIME I TURN AROUND, I HAVE TO DELETE SHOWS OFF OF MY CABLE DVR
BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HOLD ENOUGH CONTENT, THAT`S WHY I RECORD TO DISC IN THE FIRST PLACE!
post #102 of 167
Hey guys! Is anyone getting the mini for upcoming xmas?
It's kinda sad to be alone with this interesting gear. Cheers!
:-D
post #103 of 167
This thread was enough to bring me back. Need to still get one of these (somehow). Earlier in the year i searched and searched but could not find anyway to import on to Australia. I have got friends or people who can help me out to get stuff in most other countries for me but i do not know anyone in HK or Asia.
Quote:
Hey guys! Is anyone getting the mini for upcoming xmas

Would be nice if there was a way. Might check ebay now, maybe they are on there now?

The Australian Magic TV importer does not import the 7000 series PVR's
Edited by Cyclone82 - 11/29/12 at 11:16pm
post #104 of 167

I emailed oine of the HK sellers at fortress@asw.com.hk on 11/19 with two followups asking if people in the U.S. can get a MINI... last email asking if they were going to reply.

 

No response to date.

post #105 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by esdwa View Post

Hey guys! Is anyone getting the mini for upcoming xmas?
It's kinda sad to be alone with this interesting gear. Cheers!
:-D

Hi there! Could you attach your Blue Ray player to the 7000 and try to record a movie into the Hard Disc? smile.gif
Also, maybe you can import some of these for your friends in the US. biggrin.gif
post #106 of 167
Ok so this thing now only records in its own special format which is not playable/editable on anything other than the magic tv unit itself? Well if so, after all that it is pretty much a deal break now for me then.

I want a unit that can export via USB in generic formats that is then transferable to PC or playable on other USB input devices.



.
post #107 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by esdwa View Post

Hey guys! Is anyone getting the mini for upcoming xmas?
It's kinda sad to be alone with this interesting gear. Cheers!
:-D
As I recall, you posted that your out of pocket cost to purchase the device and have it delivered to the US was on the order of $500.
Is that correct? If not could you please state the cost?

Oh, and as profhat suggests and I have asked previously, could you please stick a BluRay in your PS3 and see if this unit will record it so we can definitively say whether or not it will record HDCP protected source.

tia
post #108 of 167
Yes, it does record that too. But what is the point of recording it using mini since pc can do it better and faster. Cheers.
post #109 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone82 View Post

Ok so this thing now only records in its own special format which is not playable/editable on anything other than the magic tv unit itself? Well if so, after all that it is pretty much a deal break now for me then.
I want a unit that can export via USB in generic formats that is then transferable to PC or playable on other USB input devices.
.

Interesting, just found a mini user's discussion on the web about playing Ts files created by mini on regular PC. Will investigate during the weekend.
post #110 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by esdwa View Post

Yes, it does record that too. But what is the point of recording it using mini . . . .
For exactly the reason I stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

. . . could you please stick a BluRay in your PS3 and see if this unit will record it so we can definitively say whether or not it will record HDCP protected source.
So now according to you, it does record HDCP protected source. Thanks for the information.

Now, how about the cost. Is that $500 number correct? (edit: yes, privately confirmed)
Edited by Kelson - 11/30/12 at 1:07pm
post #111 of 167
Since it can record a HDCP'd source I can see how it would be useful for HD time shifting device in N. America. Someone with a HD STB(etc.) could record anything they wanted to the mini and play it back at a later date. Since the format on the mini seems to be proprietary I can see how they might be able to do this and not get in trouble. It's not like one can copy things(including HDCP'd material) and give or lend things to others, it would only be playable on the mini(possibly other mini's) but not on a generic PC(etc.).
Thinking things through even further, I wonder if the mini's HDMI output would be HDCP'd(especially for things that originally had HDCP)? If not I guess one could archive off the Mini's HDMI output to a HD PC capture device like the Hauppauge.....Unfortunately most people will never know since they won't be able to find a way to import one frown.gif
post #112 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

I can see how they might be able to do this and not get in trouble.
Get in trouble with who?
They don't sell it in the US and unlicensed HDMI inputs are obviously not illegal in HK.
post #113 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Get in trouble with who?
They don't sell it in the US and unlicensed HDMI inputs are obviously not illegal in HK.

Since when HDMI inputs are illegal in us? There are devices including hd recorders with hdmi input sold in us.
post #114 of 167
The MPAA or whoever is the party not allowing fair use HD recording in N. America.
My guess as to the reason the format on the mini is proprietary is because it can record HDCP'd material, why else wouldn't they make it a easily playable PC format?
post #115 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by esdwa View Post

Since when HDMI inputs are illegal in us?

They may not be illegal, but they're effectively castrated with recording lockouts. It is "frowned upon" for any use other than recording game play.

Quote:
There are devices including hd recorders with hdmi input sold in us.

You keep repeating this like a mantra, but you don't name any of them.

Other than various PC video add-on boards, I'm not aware of any North American stand-alone video recorders with completely operational HDMI inputs, that can can be used to record freely from cable and satellite decoder boxes. If there was such a thing, all the zombie forum threads on these wackadoo Hong Kong mystery boxes would not keep popping up. Not to mention, you wouldn't have needed to import one? If you do know of available N.A. recorders with functional HDMI input, this would be the time and place to share them with us.

BTW, the whole issue of restrictions on HDTV recording is hardly limited to North America. Over the years, I've seen a lot of complaints on AVS from members who are jealous of the BluRay/HDD recorders that were/are available in Europe, Australia and N.Z. What no one seems to grasp when reading the confusing spec sheets, is that these BD recorders are just as crippled overseas as they would be here: 99% will not accept external HDTV input from satellite decoders and HDTV camcorder input is tricky. None have HDMI input, and only the most expensive, top-line Panasonic model each year has component analog input for analog HD signal from a decoder. The majority of overseas BluRay/HDD units can only record HDTV from their internal terrestrial and satellite tuners: external input is essentially SD. (A few semi-pro JVC BD/HDD have external SDI inputs, but those recorders cost $3500 and consumer decoder boxes don't have SDI outputs anyway.)
Edited by CitiBear - 11/30/12 at 3:01pm
post #116 of 167
My calculations on cost non inlcuding postage to both a forward shippeer an dthe forward shipper to you is approx $500 USD/AUD give or take a little depending on exactly who its bought from in UK.

Please let us know if it will record blue ray. People want to be 100% clear what this unit can and cant do before going to the trouble of getting one.
post #117 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

My guess as to the reason the format on the mini is proprietary is because it can record HDCP'd material, why else wouldn't they make it a easily playable PC format?

One way or the other, recorded content is contained in encrypted ts file which restricts playback only to this device. I read on the web this is pretty common method to protect copyrights. But in this case even my own hd recording made with hd camera cannot be played elsewhere, only streamed through mini to external device in SD quality. Maybe there is more that can be done but I am just too lazy to play around. After all this device supposed to serve as subscription free tivo.

One thing I just checked. Mini supports 720p and 1080i input from hdmi but 1080p60 as well as 1080p24 is not recognized.
Edited by esdwa - 11/30/12 at 3:09pm
post #118 of 167
I guess you could export the recordings in real time via HDMI out on the Mini via a HDfury and then into a PC, but then what is really the point of the Mini then? You could just route the HDMI source direct through a HDfury to a PC and by pass the Mini altogether. I am trying to justfy buying one of these but sadly my enthusiasm has worn off now.
post #119 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

You keep repeating this like a mantra, but you don't name any of them.

Atomos Ninja
Blackmagic Shuttle series
Hauppauge HD PVR 2
post #120 of 167
So just to be completely clear.
You hooked a HDMI cable from a blu-ray player’s HDMI output to the mini’s HDMI input and you had no trouble recording a commercially pressed BD that is encrypted with HDCP.

This was possible even though you posted this from the specs of the mini.
068af094_copprot.jpeg
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