At what point does audio snake oil become fraud? - Page 7

I'm an audiophile! My hearing is good enough to discern the sound of a thousand tiny violins weeping an accompaniment to your post.

And let's let the circle be unbroken: Mark Levinson is a vocal champion of Dr. Diamond's 'muscle fatique' theory of digital audio.

But, of course, Mark has nothing to do with Levinson these days.

Having known Dick Heyser before he passed away in 1987, I admit to being surprised when the AES Technical Committee invited me to be the "Distinguished Richard C. Heyser Memorial Lecturer" at the 131st Convention. But the invitation was serious and based on prior talks I have given, as well as the fact that I am not only an audio magazine editor but an audio engineer specializing in measuring audio components, a recording engineer, a record producer, and a musician.

My lecture should last around 45-50 minutes and will be followed by a Q&A session.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

I wish you were Krab. I really do. Instead, you are just a pure arguing machine for an orthodox point of view. Ask you to share your audio gear in your profile and you refuse. That is not what a real audiophile does Krab. Really isn't. We all love to argue but it needs to start with the hobby itself and then extend. Otherwise, it is some kind of religion you are practicing.


I wonder if you could hear the same if this was a double blind test! I say you would flunk that test like someone missing a jet engine two feet next to them!

so that's a 'No' to all four questions Krab?

Who did that?

Who said this?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post20376623


This is the way it was couple of years ago.

People who post like this:

I've been here since 2003 and avsforum is just the same. Nothing has changed with due exception of may people that left for some reason and many new people posting nowadays.

In any forum the only thing that matters is the active members.

Let's first quote the whole thing and not just your selective cut and paste:
"See, that is the difference between me and the rest of you. I am an objectivist. But I will not side with other objectivist just for the sake of it. If they say something wrong, it must be challenged or else, we lose all credibility in our combined position. "

The context was the orthodox objectivsts mis-stating the science, turning complex audio engineering into PR talking points/generalizations which are no longer correct. In that regard, their assertions can and should be corrected.

That's way different than someone saying which of these two amps sound better and someone like you stopping not only that thread, but every thread like it and demanding double blind tests or else, the posters have no right to have that discussion.

Now if it is a debate thread, sure, it is fair game. But what led to the departure was every thread in its first page getting sidetracked that way.

At least when I discuss the science of what is being stated, something gets done. What you do is just randomize a thread, contribute nothing in return whatsoever, leaving us the echo chamber we have now, sans a thread here and there where we are not talking about aliens and such.

Not so. Maybe the pockets you hang around in has stayed the same. But not the one I used to call home: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=86

It used to be an extremely active forum where we discussed high-end audio and video. It had a great mix of objectivists and subjectivists, all focused on the best there is. Chu I am sure remembers it. Today, there are mostly cobwebs there. So many experiences that could be shared, are lost now.


I am not sure how it matters if all that is represented is one side of the argument but sure, if that is what people want, that is what they get

Amir, evey thread is actually a debating thread. Or at least at some point most of them become a debating thread. Its is just inherent to human condition.

There are people that do not like debating and so leave the forums. So what?

Of course most of us wish that the debates had a minimun technical level to mean something and to learn something and flame wars are pityful and childish. But then the moderators settle things down and everything returns to normality.

Mmmm. I still can't see your point.

Technical knowledge and science in continous development is just exerting a selection pressure on some subjectivists, at least on the ultraorthodox subjectivists. Too bad for them eh?

I disagree. There is a time and place for a debate, and there is a time for asking a question and moving on. Here is an example:


This is what happened next:




Note that the above discussion occurred in the $20,000+ forum. The guidelines therefore say that people who are not interested in that gear shouldn't be there in the first place. The other side throws that rule out the window and then insists on having an argument. Is this what you are advocating? Do we live that way in real life? Go to a rock concert and demand that people listen to country music?


Oh that is not why they left. They like debating as much as the next guy. The reason they left was that they could not have any discussion other than the record stuck in the track of "where is the double blind test" and that "none of this matters." Once said, OK. Second time, alright. But this happened in every thread for weeks on end. There comes a point then when people revolt against the system as they are doing in the middle east. So they left as the only thing they could do.

This is not the way respected people should treat each other. Disagree but don't bully the other guy so much that he has to pack his bags and leave.


AVS has 30 million visitors a month. There is no way we can expect a few moderators to manage every thread there is here. Members need to show respect for varying points of view and staying out of arguments when they are asked repeatedly to do so. This orthodox view of let's shut down the other side should not go on. Look at Krab's last post. He actually seems proud of what happened. My head was down reading his post. A well educated person taking that point of view. What hope there is for others?

Oh, you don't have to agree John (which would put you at odds with audiophiles). But then again, disagreeing that psychology is routinely discarded by audiophiles would put you in an awkward position also. So I understand the pass.


Will the audio be available in analog, CD quality digital and hi rez formats for fidelity comparisons?
Ok, just kidding...


He has his own E-Meter now? Hmmm, he better be careful, Scientology doesn't take fondly to competition.


You shouldn't trivialize what you don't understand, especially when the consequences can be near tragic.
E-Meter audits of audiophiles staring at components might definitely be one of those neglected (rather than discarded) audio engineering items.

cheers,

AJ

Your selective cut and paste... What I gave you was a help so you can get rid of your misery:

Ah, the usual dance again. 3rd movement, "complain". Deflect, redirect, complain, make things up as you go... 1, 2, 3, 4...


Which is a goldmine for you to shill for the products you sell. Very unlikely that you will let go of this goldmine despite all the misery you put yourself through.

Ok Amirm. Now I see your point. Too bad some threads are derailed that way in that forum, which I visit now and then.


Ok. Fair enough. But still this has a lot to do with human nature. If you like forums you have to grow an extremely thick skin and have lots of patience and politeness. All of us eventually can not avoid loosing our temper when systematicaly challenged even if the challenge is not at a personal level.


Too many visitors indeed!

But I disagree with your POV about Krab. IMO he's just being assertive and sarcasm is always a valuable rethorical resource which many people just can´t stand.

Chu is the champ here because he's so funny and clever even when he bashes people that at the end of the day most uf us can't avoid smiling in agreement

Gosh. I love playing and listening to music, I'm fascinated by scientific work on audio perception, I love reading about and trying audio technology, I love the ins and outs of trying to get good sound at home. If that doesn't earn me membership in the pretentious clown college you call 'real audiophiles', I'm OK with that.

So, I am thinking I could start an AVSF thread in Audio Theory that says "Look, I am NOT interested in your subjective, anecdotal audio experiences, so if that's what you want to bring, just STFU", and then, if others perversely DO go ahead and post repeatedly about how their switch from HDMI to toslink just LIFTED A VEIL, I could stomp off in a huff to Hydrogenaudio? And then Chu can make a regretful post in 2016 about how cool the Audio Theory forum of AVSF used to be when guys like me were around. Awesome!!



Wow, an AVSF thread being compared to regimes in *EGYPT*, *IRAN*, and *SYRIA*??

But hey, I'll run with it for giggles -- are the minds and hearts behind the Arab Spring revolts leaving the Middle East? Settling down in havens safe from state-sponsored thugs who do what objectivists do to 'real audiophiles'? You know, torturing, raping, and shooting them?

Nah, forget it, sorry, I can't run with this. It's too f'ed up even for me.



Oh dear me, some good and true and innocent subjectivists felt harassed to the point of departure by the mean old relentless DBT people? How awful for them! Where ever will the go, what ever shall they do? And how awful for us here at AVSF, that instead of a thousand flowers blooming, there's only 9,995! Maybe if we add more fertilizer they'll grow here again??

Your analogy is wrong on multiple fronts:

1. As I said, and I am sure you remember, it was not one thread like that but countless. Indeed, there was not one thread that did not have such interruptions. Remember our friend DougW?

2. It wasn't just one person leaving. It was many. So it is not the same as you alone leaving. We could think of one person getting emotional but so many?

3. No one stated as you did and no one left as a result of that thread. The request was put forth respectfully hoping, praying, that folks would have something better to do than to interrupt that thread just the same.


Oh, now it is "guys?" When did it become plural? You said you would stomp and leave. If many people left, yes, Chu could reminiscent about the old days of balanced discussions and viewpoints. And he would be right.


The minds and hearts of the people was not about leaving AVS either. They stayed here. They put up with random arguments one of the other. A few *months* went by and the situation only got worse. Then someone created a better place for them to hang in. They took a look, and the exodus occurred. That wasn't WBF btw.

Bottom line is that people make their choices. Those choices were not because of AVS. It was because of the conduct of a few. If the few are proud of it as you seem to be, well then my case is made.

Look at Diomaniac and Audiosavant. 99% of their posts are one-liner complaints about something I have said. I can take them but why do you? Is that what a positive culture tolerates? Nope. But the theory of my enemy's enemy is my friend applies, damn human sensibilities.


What is it with you all keep playing this victim card? You are not really that good of a bully . They left because they couldn't have a discussions among themselves. If people come to a restaurant and the same stranger keeps pulling a chair next to them and wants to tell them which way the world turns, eventually people stop coming to that restaurant. It doesn't mean if they got into a fist fight, they couldn't beat the snot out of the village idiot.

They left because the forum didn't provide a healthy and relaxing place for them to discuss their hobby.


Don't feel bad for them, feel bad for you. They are all fine, enjoying their discussions elsewhere with peace and respect. Feel bad for the members here who no longer benefit form their experiences. All because the few of you couldn't think of something more useful to do than to pick fights. And pick fights many times while lacking deep knowledge in the positions taken.

The reality distortion field is strong around you . 9,995? It is a rare thread where someone here discusses anything but what you advocate. No wonder you all keep going at it. You still think it is the world against you.

Your ability to bore a joke scenario to death with over-literal parsing is hereby noted and deplored.

Anyway, 'so many" have left that it constituted an 'exodus'? I haven't noticed it. Maybe they were people whose posts I ignored in the first place, and would be ignoring now if they were here?

Speaking of bad analogies, an internet forum isn't a restaurant. A thread on one is not a comfy cushioned booth, and a discussion on a thread involving posters A,B, and C is not a private conversation between just A, B, and C. To make it so, you'll have to use other means. An internet thread is more like Hyde Park in London, where anyone can get up on pedestal and proclaim what they think, but can't control who will listen or how they will respond.

If a 'relaxing' place to discuss audio can be said to exist for me, it would be Hydrogenaudio, where tedious subjectivist noise is blessedly reduced to the merest blip. Your harried (and to me, largely invisible) subjectivist AVSF exodus would probably love Audio Asylum or computereaudiophile or Hoffman's place or Stereophile's forum for analogous reasons...the dial is turned down on those pesky objectivists, and/or the atmosphere is actively hostile to objectivist line of inquiry. There are interesting minds here that happen not to post at HA, and there are also plenty of non-overlapping topics, so I like reading/posting here too. The subjectivist 'viewpoint' here is, again, just noise to me. Mostly I ignore it -- there are dozens and dozens of thread on AVSF at any moment, it would be impossible for me to engage every silly subjectivist post even if I wanted to. (If "It is a rare thread where someone here discusses anything but what you advocate", bravo. I haven't noticed it, I doubt it's true, and I doubt you really have done the tedious survey of all AVSF posts to back it up one way or the other. I know *I* haven't. So I'll call that fertilizer.)


Don't expect me to cry crocodile tears over the loss of participants whose 'contributions' I would likely ignore in the first place, Amir. I know PLENTY of places where I can 'benefit from their experiences' if I so choose.

Btw, AVSF does have an ignore function (or what we used to call a 'killfile' on Usenet). I have three or four particularly and reliably stupid posters in mine. Maybe the fretful subjectist should try using it before they 'exodus'.

(Cue up Exodus music). A few people have left. AVS was not the only place they posted though. To say it was because of those who expoused an objectivist perspective like NIN is unfair. There were others like Morbius or M. Grant who also promoted objectivist outlooks. An important difference between them and let's say, NIN, is they were part of the crowd. They were liked. In many cases they were known personally. They even owned equipment that some subjectivists approved of. The equipment met the loose standard of not being mass produced. It was somewhat exclusive due to its limited availability and especially price.

A person like NIN didn't fit in. His stuff generally wasn't sold here. The folks who made his stuff didn't tend to wax poetic using language better suited to a QVC infomercial. It wasn't expensive enough and NIN didn't have personal experience with uber cables, lifters, or whatever it is that constitutes audiophile street cred in certain circles. I would say even his musical tastes were frowned upon. IMO, there was a xenophobic undercurrent that flowed from time to time.

The 20K area when it comes to video is very objective driven which is in stark contrast to the audio segment. If people have left, so what? Neighborhoods change all the time. MySpace gets superseded by Facebook. Areas gentrify.

I never noticed that exodus as well. In any case I repeat: In any forum the only thing that matters is the active members.

I do have listen to "high-end" cables and even stupid things like cable lifters and all kind of crap that is sold on the audiophile market.
I have even listen to many of the expensive stuff that these people own.

Hi, being related to Dr. John Diamond, I'd just like to clear up a couple of points. This is not to argue his case - you are free to have whatever opinion you want - but just to clarify some factual inaccuracies.


I can assure you that his naming of the "AES" has nothing to do with the Audio Engineering Society.


Dr. Diamond has no such "electronic strain gauge," and, as far as I am aware, had no plans to attend that convention.

Regards,
Ashley

There comes your dance move #4, "make things up as you go". Deflect, redirect, complain, make things up as you go... 1, 2, 3, 4...

I've seen a little girl complain this much.

This is good to know. Many here, including myself, were on pins and needles.

So we went from no one has left, folks didn't notice that anyone has left, to a joking acknowledgement of it occurring. See how hard it is to even agree to something so concrete and true? You all put up a fight for anything the other side says. Terry was so right. You have to clamp down and clamp down hard so that no one believes anything the other side says.


As if that has anything to do with it.


You are the one that is pinning in entirely on NIN. I specifically mentioned DougW. There were a handful of others, cheered on by folks like yourself. Recall that DougW eventually got banned, but it was too late by then.


No, the difference was that they had sensibility. They didn't left and right stop every thread because of a specific agenda. Look at the posts from Diomaniac in this thread and elsewhere. Did Grant and MOrbius post like them? I think not.


Yet people like AJ bashed him to pieces in this very forum just a month ago. Did you come to his defense Chu? Or did the marketing psychologist in you thought he deserved it because he was in some way associated with the man who made an amplifier test that showed there was a difference in them and getting him pounded into the ground, serve the purpose/religion? Did you respond to this plea?

Nope.

Ironically, NIN was conflicted just the same. He wanted Ing on the pedestal for speakers but not for his amplifier testing across three decades. The latter conflicted with his views. So he was selective about man's intelligence, abilities and work products.


Expense has little to do with it other than improper form, posting in a $20K forum when he had no equipment interest in that range. It is classic debating tactic to paint the audiophiles being all about expensive gear. It is no more distorted than me talking about BMWs and you claiming the only way I can own one is to spend $80K.


There is a technical reason for that. For video, production is done according to a specific standard. For HD video, what is produced complies with SMPTE 709. Make your playback equipment match that, together with good contrast and you know you have captured the truth. Further, you can pause video and examine a frame forever. These are things that do not exist in audio. I have no idea if I make a tweak and I have a bit less highs, whether that is more or less correct than how the music was produced and approved. And of course, can't pause on anything and still hear it.

So that statement is neither here, nor there. It is not a reflection of the community but the technology at hand.


There is some confusion here. Somehow you think I am looking to the few of you who caused the incident to feel sorrow or regret. Such is not the case. Few people breaking the windows and looting stores in a riot have remorse for the merchants. Most would even deny they had anything to do with it unless you show them a close up picture of with said rock in one hand and later, TVs they are carrying. No better proof of that than your statement and that of Krab earlier.

My posts are for the other "9,995" people who are reading these posts and don't realize that this place was different and hopefully they become less tolerant of behavior that causes people to leave a forum.


And guess how investors feel about MySpace these days. Is that what you intend for AVS discussions regarding audio? I don't.