At what point does audio snake oil become fraud? - Page 9

I like the way the stands are on stands. I wonder if this vendor sells stands? Also, I believe the brass cylinders are inappropriate. They should be brass balls.

Since you are so observant, perhaps you noticed Arny joining? That, after saying it was the worst place on earth? I seem to recall him putting in ~200 posts in just a couple of months.

Ethan left btw because he wanted to do the militant thing, saving people from ills of audiophilia', etc.

BTW, people cannot believe it is the same Arny that is there. Yes, he was his usual self here and there with some personal attacks. But once put on notice, he is decidedly more civil.

As I said, there are a lot of audiophiles with alien genes. Those copper foil are antennas used for communications to their spaceship.


You buy your hardwood from those outfits? All they have is expensive preplaned stock that by the time you run it through your jointer to make them flat, you can see through them! You want to visit a real hardwood store, get them roughsawn and then plane them down to what you need.

And yes, they do sound better that way. They will be a lot heavier so when they hit you on the head, it will make a louder thud sound!

In looking at the big picture the proper way to see this is to consider a change of verbage...

"In any forum the only thing that matters is the active members."

to

In any forum the only thing that matters is the interactive members.

Did a search now. It returns 103 posts.


Seeing the group of you following me from thread to thread, no question about what you did. The gang moves from one fight to another.


Right on brother. I said your interest is arguing and not audio and you tell me the same thing.

Me, I did go there to learn. Lots of people sharing lots of experiences.


I got the clue! You sit in your car and listen to the four speakers! Yes, yes, yes! No wonder you don't hear jitter. Your car's vibrations dwarf it!!!


Putting aside the fact that Roger is posting on WBF now, we have incredible array of technical articles and forums there. Here is the core area: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumd...t-In-Tech-Talk

You brag about Harman's blind testing. We have both Sean Olive and Todd Welti: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumd...ofers-In-Rooms.

Art Noxon has its forum on acoustics: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumd...Room-Acoustics and we have many experts like him visiting there.

And Mark Seaton on speakers and rooms: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumd...th-Mark-Seaton

Importantly, the expert areas have strict rules of not allowing members to hassle the experts or create side arguments. Therefore, information is easy to find for members.

Does it hold a candle to AVS' breath of information? Nope. If you have time and energy, this places is the deepest repository of knowledge there is on audio/video. But then you better be prepared to put up with likes diomaniac, AJ, etc.



I don't know how many times I have had to say this but once more, I am not looking to you to appreciate the impact. You are the aggressor. of course you think nothing bad happened. Maybe a little story helps.

I remember sitting in a sexual harassment course at Sony years ago. A guy got into an argument over gray areas of what is harassment and what is not. Eventually the instructor got tired and said this: "if you are embarrassed for your mother to see what you did, you shouldn't do it!"

By the same token, I am confident none of the people who did the harassing would be willing to show their posts to their mother. There.


I am with you. We should go to a single party government. What say you?

what are some of the things you learned about in that section?

haha this so funny



Yeah, that is really what happen. Not that Hevi posted a video on youtube that proved the AJ character was totally wrong and challenged him, and AJ just stopped






WHEN will you get it that it is LTS that do the test?
No, their test don't conflict with my views, I even have bought amplifiers based on their test. But the difference is that I have read many of the tests, and you have not.
You know, I have a lot info that you don't know about, because you don't have read them. Because of that I have a better context how to grade the tests, than you.

Let me get this straight:
-You don't have any of the original tests. You have only read one translated test.
-All other "knowledge" is based on second, third or even lower based sources.
-All this on a language you don't know and using web translation that even yourself say is hard to use.

And this make a expert that saying that I don't know or don't want to know the "truth" when I:

-Have a lot of the original testspapers in my home.
-My knowledge is based from the original first source, the tests, and even from people that do the tests, that I know and meet many times.
-Have spoken, written, meet Ingvar and other within LTS many, many times during the past 7-8 years. Hell, Ingvar have been at my place a couple of times and he have helpt me with the acoustics, that you trashed, and let me quote you:
"All I see is black curtains in front of the same, thin, blue egg-crate foam. My worry was acoustics, not aesthetics . That foam doesn't do much to tame low frequency reflections. Did you say the speaker designer helped you with it? If so, I am very surprised that he would make such a recommendation."


So the way I see it is this:
-You use whatever that can prove your point and excludes that is not useful for your goal or that it hurts your claims.
-You post like you have a deeper knowledge that you really have.
-You don't answer the questions that proves you don't know or are wrong.
-You like to use straw man argument.

One can always say that I don't write so well (English is not my first languages).
One can also say that I sometimes can get excited and in a hurry post a not 100% well thoughtful posts.

So lets see what you will ignore again and what new straw man you will use.

I'll assume that this comment was meant to suggest that objectivists, in general, are the aggressor, with the several you call out by name as the main perpatrators.

What a crock of shite. I've been on this site since its first year under several names. And I can state from personal experience that every single freaken time I post a comment such as: "if anyone can hear a difference between DACS then one of them is broken or poorly engineered" the "usual" subjects from the other side pile on so quickly and aggressivly that I'm hardly done typing the statement before I have half a dozen subjectivists calling me every demeaning, insluting, slur they can think of that gets past the mods.

To suggest that this type of behaviour is one sided, as you do over and over and over and over and over...again... is simply somebody taking only information from one side and purporting it to be the truth.

Both sides give as good as they get. And there has been as many from both camps leave the site over the years. Perhaps they just have more to do with their lives than live on an internet site? Hmmmmm. Leaving this place for a few years is very healthy. But as Jorgelopez said, not a single thing has changed around here in a dozen years. Same site. Same agruments. Same BS from both sides. Nothing accomplished. Same people endlessly agruing about the same things, both sides with an agenda. To suggest this is only true on one side is to ignore the facts and history of this site in general. And frankly, you know that. You are a prime example of what you hate. At this point you are only arguing to argue. You don't believe for a second half of what you are posting.

Here is the deal Rock. You can buy my recommended wood block /brass feet stands (or my recommended Async USB to S/PDIF converter with a money back guarantee from:http://www.audiophilleo.com/buy.aspx).
Buy it, run your own test for 30 days. Run it double, triple blind . Bring people with you or do it alone (yes, a double or triple blind test alone). If you don't hear any difference, return it, get your money back and be happy that you saved $500 and lots of reading in threads like this in the future . I expect 90% of the people to fall in that category if not more (never mind my rather condescending tone here).
Was this simple enough? Remember, I am more of an objectivist than all of you combined. We have clear reasons to indicate the wood block/brass feet offers 10x lower measured vibration, so we know the system is underperforming its specification without them. So we should go and conduct experiments.
I have conducted experiments to prove it to me that it does degrade audio. The only way I know how to get you to believe it is for you to run such test.
It is not a preference. It an informed opinion by someone schooled in the art and science.

cheers,

AJ

The "sin 2" test for diffraction? "Proved" no diffraction....from a stepped baffle.
Extremely funny stuff, why did he remove it? I was quite enjoying it, as I'm sure anyone with the IQ required to understand diffraction and "Sin 2" testing was.

Laughing, no. But I did have a show to get ready for and now a business to run.
Maybe one day if I find time, I'll revisit that rather amusing "diffraction revealing" stepped baffle "test".

Get hevi to put it back up, it was funny as heck.

No, that is not a correct assumption. I am speaking of a specific situation caused by a few individuals who pushed way beyond the point of reasonableness. I gave specific examples and mentioned names.

I call them militant objectivists now because they are out to have a fight first and foremost.

I was also clear that I myself an objectivists. So there, you should know that I am not generalizing. There are countless people who look at audio objectively but don't stalk others like Diomaniac does.

Well, your standard must be different than what I call those names. Here is a sampling when I discussed that very topic with just one individual:

Originally Posted by arnyk
I take it that you have no experience with research and development.

Originally Posted by arnyk
You've already proven that despite your initial claims you have about zero clue about what constitutes a proper listening test, and you are quick to advise people against them.

Originally Posted by arnyk
Amrim, are you projecting your recent serious failures onto me?

Originally Posted by arnyk
The above shows how completely out-of-touch with reality you are, Amrim. ...Amrim we now know that you are less sophisticated than a beginner when it comes to doing listening tests. .

Originally Posted by arnyk
You're such a rookie, Amirm. In such a rush to judgement and so over your head, technically.

Originally Posted by arnyk
Amirm shows us his inexperience with real-world digtial once again.

Originally Posted by arnyk
I hate to see you twist in the wind Amirm, so I'll explain your little jitter mystery for you.

Originally Posted by arnyk
Yet another rookie mistake. Amirm, You are obviously unaware of the basics of statistics.

Originally Posted by arnyk
Yet another rookie mistake caused no doubt by a rush to judgement.

Originally Posted by arnyk
You've never heard of digital filters, I take it. Google is your friend.

I can post 100X more about the few individuals. That said, I hear you. There are people who are extremely vocal and aggressive on the other side. Having argued with them though as you have, I have yet to see any of them act like the above and other examples I have given.

Fact is that we have seen a number of people from one camp leave collectively leaving a subforum almost empty whereas nothing like that has occurred on the other side.

I made the above correction that I am talking about a specific situation just yesterday. I don't know how you turn this incident into me being against the entire camp. But now that it is cleared, I hope you don't think that way anymore >

That assertion is simply incorrect with respect to $20,000 forum. I go there everyday. There is almost nothing to read. Sometimes there is no new thread for days. It was anything but that way before. If you are disputing that, let's see that crisply and I am happy to put forth more evidence.

I disagree. A lot has been accomplished. It is just that it takes a ton of time to get there. At least from my point of view I have been able to make progress on a number of exaggerated positions by folks in our objectivist camp.

I don't just "ague." I put forth the science of what we are discussing, this thread notwithstanding. Yes, we all have an agenda. It is to rise up in status in the social community and do that by achieving some level of authority. Question is, do we do that by imparting knowledge or just stomping our feet that the other side is stupid and do so non-constructively?

To be clear, I love the challenges and claims made. Otherwise, there would be nothing to discuss. But there is a good way to do it and a bad way to do it. For Arny to use such words with someone else from the industry is just not proper. Same person on WBF posts much, much better because he knows the strict rules we have there. People can't believe it is the same person when I show them the above posts.

Your justification after the fact that just encourages that style. We come here to have fun and enjoy discussing our great hobby. If it is a war to some people who have to stalk me from thread to thread and do nothing but throw one-liner jabs as some are doing exactly, and never discuss any audio experiences of their own, something is broken and as a group, we need to stop that no matter which camp we are in, lest we want to lose credibility as human beings.

It is clear from my read of the situation that no price is too high to win the argument. I ask Chu why he didn't defend NIN and I just get a random answer back.

I do. Show me posts like I did for Arny. Show me doing what Diomaniac does by stalking another poster. Show me not discussing my personal audio experiences that I can't get out of Chu or Krab. Show me all of you collectively explaining as much about the science of audio and objectivity as I have done. You can't do it.

Am I perfect in what I do here? No. Not by any stretch. But imagine for a moment that there are six or seven people who are following from thread to thread, shadowing you like you would not believe, throwing daggers at you. There comes the time when you also will post something emotional and when you look back you say, "I wish I hadn't done that."

Now, if you are saying I am guilty of having a strong point of view, I won't apologize for that. Nor do I at all accept that it has anything to do with the topic being discussed.

Arny's on Hydrogenaudio too. And here as well (I think).

So, you and your WBF krew are surprised that Arny's willing to join a moderated group that has a faction of subjectivist woo-swearers on it? And that he can be 'civil'? I'm not, any more than I'm surprised by his doggedness in pursuing an argument. I've 'known' Arny since old Usenet days. There was (is) this place called 'rec.audio.high-end', a very well-moderated oasis in a scorching desert of rational Usenet audio discussion. You should research it sometime. People like you used to whine about objectivist 'bullying' there too, btw.

From my perspective you're still kind of a noob to internet audio culture, Amir. That's why your concerns and arguments can be pretty boring, to me -- you're not aware of how often these 'battles' have been fought before....and often with the same combatants.


And btw, do you really imagine the Superior Dance you seem to be engaged in constantly, is any less 'damning' than Arny's quotes you pulled, above?

Good job! Now, what percentage of my total posting to AVSF does that represent?

As for the rest, I told you, I'm already a member of WBF, doofus (yes,that's name-calling. Almost as childish as 'show me your gear!'). Have been for...well, you can look it up for me. I sure wish Sean Olive would post more.

I like the cut of this test's jib. And I say that as someone who is more of an audiophile than anyone who has ever lived. But may I suggest quadruple blind? First, one set of listeners does double blind listening and gives their answers. Then the second set has to guess what answers the first set gave. And in both cases, the proctor mustn't have a clue what's going on.

Perhaps very telling the way that thread ended. With "Mike Lavigne" in posts 471 & 474 balking at the parameters you suggest for a how a subjectivist should best "share his experiences". He states that while he appreciates your respectively oppositional demeanor, he still ends up feeling slighted all the same. He, like many audiophiles, view subjective, uncontrolled experiences to be the core of their approach for finding both truth and enjoyment in the hobby.

What it reveals, I think, is that those like him will seldom be swayed by the (ultimately surface) courtesies you wish to establish among all objectivists. No matter if every objectivist post began with "I am genuinely interested in hearing about your listening experiences", people coming from the perspective of Mike Lavigne will still feel chided all the same. Once the respectful pleasantries have been exchanged, when it becomes clear to them that their experiences and reasoning is going to be challenged, no matter how respectfully, the defensive wall goes up.

In the end, Mike remained unswayed, no progress made, but he does come out still liking you. Better than him not liking you, I suppose. But was any "progress" made?

Perfect example of the type of behaviour that you rant against being used by you. You take a typo and use it to demean. Nothing more or less than passive agressive BS.

From an argument point of view, you were making progress in convincing me that, perhaps, you might have a point to be made. But then...BAM...you simply can't pass up the opportunity to make sure you call my typo out publically. To what end? What purpose? I don't need a lesson in spelling, I don't need my nose rubbed in the fact that, holy shite, I actually mispelled a word!!!!! It clearly wasn't a joke. It wasn't meant to be anything but what it was. Mean spirited. Ironic that you rant against mean spirited people while being one yourself.

Useless.

To his credit, Lavigne, who has an 'ultra ultra' high end setup, took a DBT (I think it was LP vs digitized LP, I might be mistaken) when he was a poster here at AVSF. The result: the big differences he thought he heard, sighted, weren't reliably detected when presented 'blind'.

He came to think that maybe, just maybe, subjective perceptions *weren't* the path to audio truth.

To his discredit, that lasted about a week.

Loving that Furutech thread, Amir -- it's been awhile since I checked it out. Can't wait to get to the part where you tear Fremer a new a-hole. But already I notice you like to write stuff like this


I'm not sure anyone at 'a forum once upon a time' ever wrote exactly that, or ever meant exactly that. Smells a bit of fertilizer, and it's a bit provocative and argument-startingto misrepresent the telling little details that way, don't you think? Bolding mine.



Ah, those famous game-changing blind tests of yours , that we'll never get the data for. Oh well. I won't reveal my top-secret equipment list to you, so i guess we're even.



Woo woo!


AND as a bonus in that thread, you get to watch Amir argue with a lawyer who believes in homeopathy!

Familiar with this, krabapple?

http://www.cell.com/neuron/retrieve/...96627304006129

Not familiar, but I think I've seen it before. We have work like this, the widely-publicized wine pricing vs preference experiment, and plenty of other data to show how often the data presented by our senses are highly warped by post processing. One would think that would undermines the whole 'subjectivist' viewpoint to a rational person. But I suspect Mike Lavigne's high-end gear suppliers aren't worried even a tiny bit.

Amir, I notice Bruce of Puget Sounds took his bat and ball and left the Furutech thread too, after making a far too definitive statement about the before/after demag test -- a test which, as several noted, fatally failed to control for normal play-to-play variability (which turns out to be comparatively huge) .

And then he came back.

mep and Orb got kind of stroppy too, not just Lavigne. Seems the discussion can get a bit huffy over there. Vinylphiles are a thin-skinned bunch, IME. (I recognize lots of those posters from audioholics , this forum, IMWAN, Hoffman's, and elsewhere..maybe even Usenet)

And then there's this ..


That's Mike Lavigne writing about...Amir's WBF.



Btw, this marks something like my 275th post in the 2-channel subforum, according to the searchable archive. I'm a fixture!.

Nope, twas cables.

As predicted.
The irony is that in his WTF?? forum posts, he unwittingly repeatedly advocates for DBTs as the preferred method of determination.

cheers,

AJ

Indeed. We have spirited debates there just the same, contrary to misinformation the usual suspects here like to spread . What is different is that we don't have stalkers like Diomaniac and Savant, or nonconstructive posters like AJ. And other folks who only argue and contribute nothing else to audio discussions in general. Importantly, no one gets too personal as routinely occurs here.

It is not a matter of having a thin skin. It is a matter of getting tired of you all raising the same two points and not wanting to discuss anything else. Approach them as we did in that thread, creating tests and learning, and they at lest isten.

He had a good point actually. He is not specific about it there but the issue was that Ethan was carrying the objectivists flag with asking for proof and such in many threads. What got them upset wasn't that part of it, but the fact that he was anointed the "technical expert" by us due to him having his own private forum. Members complained that he a) had higher powers than them and b) must have been representing our (management) views given that title. Neither was the case of course but appearances were that. It would be as if Alan was taking a strong point of view here and pushing folks into corner. Folks would think it is an uneven playing field.

So we took action to resolve that which sadly resulted in Ethan leaving the forum (his choice, not ours).

I am glad you figured out how to use search .

I had to read that three times to figure out what you meant. I kept seeing you quoting *me* having misspelled the word, yet you were talking about you doing the same. It wasn't until I went back to what you said that I realized we both misspelled the word!

You can see I did not spell the word your way. It was just a coincident in that manner and not at all the meaning you took from it.

Well, now that you see it was not meant that way, let's see if you do take my points to heart.

Fish fertilizer? You are not trying to be Chu, are you?

Here is a sampling of said fertilizer that was the basis of said post:
As you see, it walks and talks like a duck. Oops, I meant duck poop.

My test data is public in this forum and heavily discussed. Indeed, some people posting in this thread participated in them.

At least I am not in the company of people believing in aliens living with us .

But by all means, I am proud of my stance in not being hard over in any one direction as a whole. I look at each situation and decide what position the science -- not the Internet folklore -- supports and what it doesn't.

You insult my intelligence if you expect me to believe the crap you posted above. Your quotation marks around my misspelled word were meant exactly as they were taken. As an insult. While you scream "foul" over what you see as aggressive posts, you insert passive aggresive BS and expect it to get by. Pathetic.

I think that you should stop throwing stones as your glass house is in jeapordy of breaking.

You've got a text file or something of stuff Arny's said. What do you call it? Arny Insults.txt? And you've probably got them for everyone else. Man, that's just mentally disturbed.

Precisely what I thought. You were not sincere in the least in saying if that was not the case, you would gone along with what I said. Now that I have shown you to have been mistaken in your assumption, you backtrack with "don't insult me" line. How hard would have bee to say, "oh, never mind then?" Too hard apparently.

Here we go again. For the tenth time, you can talk to me however you like. My skin is quite thick. I put up with folks 10X worse than the way you are doing. I am not your victim and you only help me along with using the language above. Throw all the stones you like. This is not about me. It is about you driving out others who don't put up with the language and style you are using in this post. And with it, we lose hearing about their experiences.

I wish I didn't have to relive them. But a moment does not go by where one of you don't disown your own claims, forcing me to go look up those talking points. As just occurred. As it occurs every other day.

PS It is no text file. It is knowing how to properly search .