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Speaker Shootout!! - Page 36

post #1051 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am using the DCX 2496. Very easy to use with REW. Just copy the filters but you set the parameters. REW told me that they don't recommend my settings because most of the response was 10 dBs above the range and I said do it! I will have to show my response, they are awesome from 80hz to 20khz. I went from 16 dBs uneq'd(1/3 octave smoothing of course) to 10 dBs to now 5-6 dBs. Basically a difference of +/- 8 dBs to +/- 5 dBs to +/- 2.5-3 dBs. The guys at the meet had a +/- 7 dBs with them and +/- 9 dBs with the 888's. The difference was the 888's were much smoother in the wheel house and rolled above 7khz where the eD's and DR's were not rolled of as much. Both the eD's and especially the DR's were said to be bright but not the others. Smooth out the 80-3khz range on the DR and drop the 7khz range and I bet they would not be shrill anymore. The ultra high sensitivity of the DR's will become unbalanced if not tweaked to death, in room that is.
BTW, how were the DR's used for movies and was the center channel EQ'd at all?

Are you using multiple DCX's for your mains and surrounds or are you using it for the front 3 only? I see it has 3 inputs and 6 outputs but for some reason can't figure out how you would use one for everything: Would it go - Receiver Pre-Out > DCX > Amps for Speakers? (I'm tired so if this is an ignorant statement excuse me in advance!)

The 280's are amazing IMO just like you said and I was a little surprised how low the DR's scored in the other shoot out threads. You hit the nail on the head about the dispersion pattern as well, I spent several hours twisting, turning, raising, lowering, eqing, etc. until I got it dead on for all my listening positions. A dual stack would be incredible I am sure but I have already spent way too much money on these things after buying the Wedge 8's. I am using Audyssey XT32 to EQ everything and then my miniDSP to tweak using an omnimic, everything is running off multiple QSC GX5 amps. I am not experiencing any brightness with my setup, nor do I have issues cranking the volume. The biggest challenge I had with these speakers was placement due to their size and getting EQ correct because XT32 really had a hard time with them because of their sheer output (it sets them to -15DB.)
Edited by jmalto - 9/19/12 at 8:21pm
post #1052 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Are you using multiple DCX's for your mains and surrounds or are you using it for the front 3 only? I see it has 3 inputs and 6 outputs but for some reason can't figure out how you would use one for everything: Would it go - Receiver Pre-Out > DCX > Amps for Speakers? (I'm tired so if this is an ignorant statement excuse me in advance!)
The 280's are amazing IMO just like you said and I was a little surprised how low the DR's scored in the other shoot out threads. You hit the nail on the head about the dispersion pattern as well, I spent several hours twisting, turning, raising, lowering, eqing, etc. until I got it dead on for all my listening positions. A dual stack would be incredible I am sure but I have already spent way too much money on these things after buying the Wedge 8's. I am using Audyssey XT32 to EQ everything and then my miniDSP to tweak using an omnimic, everything is running off multiple QSC GX5 amps. I am not experiencing any brightness with my setup, nor do I have issues cranking the volume. The biggest challenge I had with these speakers was placement due to their size and getting EQ correct because XT32 really had a hard time with them because of their sheer output (it sets them to -15DB.)

Audyssey is fine for them, I don't have audyssey so I use a DCX for my front 3 channels. I have not even EQ'd the wedges yet and they sound great. The wedges were made for closer listening so surround duty is ideal. They are big for surrounds, I guess the Slah's are perfect for that as they are flat. I just watched Tron at reference and in no way was there any shrill or brightness, the sound was great and my friend just looked at me and said you finally went off the deep end. Oh yeah, these little 12's sound amazing and handle everything I throw at them. I get much more tactile sensations than ever before. I will take a picture of my front stage array. I don't have any subs in the corners anymore, they are all behind the screen.

The guys at the GTG liked the JTR's and SHO-10's and they both rolled off the top end so in Carp's room that is probably needed. I would for Desertdome to go back over there and flatten out the eD's and see how they sound. Carp says his eD's EQ sounds better than at the GTG so I would like to see the response.
post #1053 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The guys at the GTG liked the JTR's and SHO-10's and they both rolled off the top end so in Carp's room that is probably needed. I would for Desertdome to go back over there and flatten out the eD's and see how they sound. Carp says his eD's EQ sounds better than at the GTG so I would like to see the response.

I don't have a graph, but I set my manual eq as follows:

I turn down 2khz 1.5 db's
I turn down 4 khz 3 db's
I leave 8khz as is
I turn UP 16khz 3 db's

I've experimented with all kind of different settings the past couple of weeks including the auto MCACC eq calibration and this is my favorite I must be losing hearing in the higher frequencies to need 16khz boosted like that, but it give the treble that sizzle that I like. I've always heard that around 4khz is what we perceive as harsh, and my speakers are just a touch harsh on some music if I don't lower 4khz a little bit. For movies the eD's never sound harsh with no eq at all. I thought for movies at the blind test they were awesome but just a bit harsh on some music (the Kansas song was pretty harsh).
post #1054 of 1141
Thread Starter 
I just wanted to give my negatives with the DR-250's array. No speaker is perfect and these reveal everything and a OK recording at reference can sound bad and great recordings are incredible. Watching the game tonight at reference and vocals sound great and like crap at times. They are ultra revealing.
post #1055 of 1141
Thread Starter 
UPS SUCKS!

Here are pics of my speakers before I shipped them

IMG_4683.jpg

Here is one on arrival for an excited person to try them!

DSC05649.jpg

I mean really! I paid a UPS store to package and ship for crying out loud. My last two shipping experiences have been like this, I might just stop shipping.
post #1056 of 1141
That really sucks. I hope to took out their insurance.

-- Bill --
post #1057 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

That really sucks. I hope to took out their insurance.
-- Bill --

I did, but like last time they can end up not paying for some fine print. The excuse last time was the receiver said the packaging was bad so UPS denied the claim. Shiprite said they could do nothing about it and I said BS. I paid you guys to package these things and paid insurance, you are responsible, not UPS. Well, I have not received money from them yet. This time was a different company(local) so we shall see.
post #1058 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I did, but like last time they can end up not paying for some fine print. The excuse last time was the receiver said the packaging was bad so UPS denied the claim. Shiprite said they could do nothing about it and I said BS. I paid you guys to package these things and paid insurance, you are responsible, not UPS. Well, I have not received money from them yet. This time was a different company(local) so we shall see.

That is a drag MK. I hate selling/shipping equipment. All of my recent equipment sales have been local and I've only had one major problem that after a months long dispute was finally resolved with UPS.
Maybe this will get you to stop buying new speakers/subs every month or two ... naaaaa! wink.gif
post #1059 of 1141
A more reliable method of shipping would be on a pallet using a trucking firm.
post #1060 of 1141
I stopped using UPS a long time, tired of always fighting them on insurance claims. I have been using Fed-Ex Ground exclusively for the last 6 years or so and have only had 2 claims and that was from theft on small air packages, ground has been excellent.
post #1061 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

UPS SUCKS!
Here are pics of my speakers before I shipped them
IMG_4683.jpg
Here is one on arrival for an excited person to try them!
DSC05649.jpg
I mean really! I paid a UPS store to package and ship for crying out loud. My last two shipping experiences have been like this, I might just stop shipping.

Thats poor. But so long as the shipping/packaging company is UPS affiliated or authorized you'll have no probs getting the insurance. UPS and Fedex get out of claims by saying the shipper didn't follow guidelines and packaged inadequately. Since this was the responsibility of the 'professionals' they have to package according the UPS recommendations or pay the consequences. In almost all cases when delicate items are packaged properly they don't sustain damage. I just received 3 ADA amplifier components, each carefully boxed and then double boxed with peanuts. The outer box took a beating but the smaller inner boxes were untouched and everything worked fine.
Just don't take no for an answer. Keep calling/badgering the UPS claims dept until they capitulate. Take plenty of photos of the box (hope you have some before it was opened) and more of the packaging inside. GL
post #1062 of 1141
Great advice Lewis.

With all shipping claims the first thing they do is deny the claim and hope the person goes away. I bet that strategy works enough times to save them millions but you have to stay on there @ss or they will just ignore you. I always had to fight with UPS and even the 2 thefts I had with Fed-Ex were denied at first, one was even reported by there head of security and they still denied it but all were eventually paid off except the last by UPS.

Good luck on your claim MK
post #1063 of 1141
If memory serves me right. The top and bottom leading edges are a few inches out from the array. You can make a straight cut across the top and should not affect anything. Since these are behind the screen you are only effecting the looks.
post #1064 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBDrums View Post

If memory serves me right. The top and bottom leading edges are a few inches out from the array. You can make a straight cut across the top and should not affect anything. Since these are behind the screen you are only effecting the looks.

Hi Scott, I sold these to a member on the BFM site. I will PM you all the pics of the damage and maybe you can tell me how to fix or repair so I can send it to him. These were perfect speakers with build quality as good as the JTR's, just cheaper parts.
post #1065 of 1141
Ya, if you can take a pic from the side inline with the plastic corners in the horn mouth.
SO I can see the array and damage.
Thanks James
post #1066 of 1141
Thread Starter 
I will see what I can get him to do.
post #1067 of 1141
Like MJ, I too quit using UPS, both personally and professionally. Professionally, I have a degree in Package Engineering (Mich State) and a certification from the IOPP (plus 20 years experience in mostly fortune 500 companies) and still have struggled with them over the years. Heck, they are even based here in Atlanta. I have argued with all of their technical people on claim issues. Lesson learned: use FedEx.
post #1068 of 1141
In my experience I've found Fedex far less likely to pay out on claims. So long as packages are properly packaged and the condition of the items checked before signing off, then UPS have been much easier to deal with when claims are made. Just document everything, take photos and follow up with the claims dept. Its a pain but they do pay out.
post #1069 of 1141
Thread Starter 
I have used both Fedex and UPS and Fedex is better as breaking things is concerned. Remember, I dropped these off to a shipping company and it was between UPS and freight. I prefer freight over both but it also cost $100 more for freight and the shipping price was already crazy! I have shipped many things and it seems things get broken the most when I pay for package and ship. When I package things are usually much better. I just thought I would give a little shout out to UPS for playing kick ball on a big box. I shipped 4 of these and this was the worst. Speaker still works fine though. The buyer was to pay me an extra $100 on receiving the product for shipping but we agreed for him to keep it for any repairs. These are not expensive to fix. He is also capable of fixing them. I only sold each speaker for $200 each which BTW is the best bargain in speakers! Can't touch the performance for that, not even close.
post #1070 of 1141
Hi MK,

Great Thread, you have worked hard for your HT!
I was wondering if you could elaborate on your opinions a little of the DR200 Stack vs Dr250 Stack. I am mostly interested in the difference in extension, but any other differences you noted would also be very interesting. I would like to be able to cross at 80-90Hz at -3db and maintain 100+dB SPL on average, but would prefer the marginally smaller DR200's if possible. Your Dr200's only had beta 8's installed didn't they?

And also if possible could you separately describe the differences you are finding between the Deltalite II 2510's and the Beta 10's in the Dr250s?

Thank-you!

Mitchell
Edited by MitchH311 - 9/28/12 at 10:28pm
post #1071 of 1141
MK what did you think of the T39's? I think you had those at some point.

Before I go out and buy four 18s for my L/R main speakers(two per channel) I wonder how well and how loud a T39 could do compared to a dual 15 stack like you once had for your mains. I would be using, possibly, dual 18s for my cabinets but when looking at cost I have to try these horned bass cabs. I am only wanting 250hz and maybe down to 60 or 50hz. Just exploring options. The subs can do everything lower than that.
Edited by chrapladm - 10/7/12 at 6:11pm
post #1072 of 1141
Thread Starter 
It is hard to say without a direct comparison. The dual 2226's were the best but the T-39's were not far behind. I still have two not hooked up.
post #1073 of 1141
I figured that would be the case. I am wanting more than what I have now and thats why I was looking at dual 18 cabs. They are quite expensive but everything I like is.
post #1074 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It is hard to say without a direct comparison. The dual 2226's were the best but the T-39's were not far behind. I still have two not hooked up.

The T-39's you had were for mid bass, right? What was their frequency response? How did yoet the T-39's to blend into your sub and mains? I currently have an Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 home theater setup, with an MFW-15 for the low end, all powered by a Denon AVR-3312. I want to find some way to add some mid bass to the mains. I have kicked around the idea of ordering some HSU STF-2's and hooking them up via speaker wire in between the mains speakers and the receiver. If I were to do this, I would have 3 different STF-1's, one for each of the 3 main speakers I am running up front.

Also am considering building a trio of some sort of subs that would work better for use in between the speaker and receiver in order to hook up to each main via speaker wire, thus making my Sierra-1's sound more like full range speakers. Any suggestions on drivers and cab configurations would be great!
post #1075 of 1141
Thread Starter 
The T-39's are below the DR-200's in the picture, they are big.

front_stage.jpg

There response is 60-300hz. I wired them in with my DR-200's acting as the bottom end and then crossed them over at 80hz with my processor. I used a DCX to integrate them.
post #1076 of 1141
MK did you ever use a ribbon on your DR's?

I am getting ready to build a pair of DR200's for myself. I am wondering if I will like the melded array or not. I know when I built my SLA with cheapy tweeters they sounded great with 18 of them. I thought the SLA was great. Then I bought the TPL-150 and wow what a difference. With the TPL it was like I had just turned the tweeters on. As soon as I turned the TPL off and just had the SLA on I thought something was wrong. But there was nothing wrong just the TPL sounded superior.

So I wonder how are these melded arrays going to sound?

I know you said with EQ they sound great. So I am very curious. If they dont sound that good I may try and use a pair of Fountek ribbons for the tweeter in each DR200. BUT maybe the Fountek wont sound as good as the TPL-150. Who knows. I just know that using a pair of TPL-150's per DR200 would be extremely expensive. So I am hoping the melded array will sound just as good or close to the TPL.
post #1077 of 1141
MK, have you experimented with the SLA type design in your home theater? I keep hearing so many people say that those kind of arrays are hard to beat. Most of those types of speakers that I have looked at are ubber expensive but the SLA is a lot more affordable compared to some of the others. I wonder how the SLA's would sound if a person were to use better quality mid range and tweeter drivers, as opposed to the cheaper ones that are typically used in Bill Fritzs' design?
post #1078 of 1141
Thread Starter 
I have not used ribbons yet or SLA's. I just had a couple members over all day yesterday and they loved the DR-250's as is.
post #1079 of 1141
As I have learned you should put most of your money into the tweeter, as far as the line array.. If I could I would do my line array with TPL's, but for now I am looking at either building the DR200 or the DR250. I will be able to use these outside and they will be able to make me happy sitting on top of a big subwoofer.
post #1080 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater

I am waiting for Madaeel to comment on the speakers because I think they made just as big of an impression.

Ahhh yes. The DR-250's. Man I love those speakers. I wish I had more depth in my room so I could put them behind the screen. Actually I *might* be able to if I can put all the subs up front. It could happen.

I really don't understand why in that speaker shootout they didn't like them. I have NEVER listened to movies that loud and only once did it bother me and that was LOTR in DTS at reference. That is insane loud. I also think that movie is recorded very hot. Every other movie clip sounded amazing at or above reference. Never once did Eric or I think it was too bright or harsh. They just sounded nuetral. I wonder if maybe the amp/electronics they were paired with made them sound bad because for us it was a pleasure to hear them.

What's crazy is James had two of them for each LCR channel. One is plenty. They handled every thing with ease and could've easily gone louder.

I would put them in my room in a heartbeat if they weren't 22" deep. They're bulky but that's the only negative I can think of.
Edited by Madaeel - Today at 2:16 am
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