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Speaker Shootout!! - Page 31

post #901 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

Interested. How are you measuring?

I am using a CSL calibrated Behringer mic and mobile pre sound card with REW. I am using a DCX 2496.
post #902 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am using a CSL calibrated Behringer mic and mobile pre sound card with REW. I am using a DCX 2496.

June Cleaver; "Oh Stewardess, I speak Jive"

"He's using a mic from cross Spectrum Labs, that they calibrate prior to shipping, an outboard, stand alone interface from M-Audio that takes the mic and interfaces it with a laptop/PC, etc, and he's using a Behringer DCX2496 for manipulating multiple subs with regard to time, frequency, etc, ...it's the Swiss Army knife of EQ's processors etc."

Here's the bit.


Good luck
post #903 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post


June Cleaver; "Oh Stewardess, I speak Jive"

"He's using a mic from cross Spectrum Labs, that they calibrate prior to shipping, an outboard, stand alone interface from M-Audio that takes the mic and interfaces it with a laptop/PC, etc, and he's using a Behringer DCX2496 for manipulating multiple subs with regard to time, frequency, etc, ...it's the Swiss Army knife of EQ's processors etc."

Here's the bit.

Good luck

Correct, I bought the most expensive one which was $100. Scott or Penngray post links to buy these and I did.
post #904 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Ok guys since my shootout is over I just wanted to rank them from 1 on down and I will include some older speakers since I had them head to head against my 5000's before.

1. DR-200's
2. JBL 4675
3. JBL 3722N
4. eD cinema 12 upgraded
5. JTR triple 8 sealed
6. CHT SHO-10's
7. JTR triple 8 originals
8. M&K S-5000's
9. KL-650's
10. Triad in room LCR gold classics

Now this is my preference for reference level movie watching where I value big dynamic sound with detail over everything else. Many of the speakers had better highs than the JBLs but their big dynamic sound was just hard to ignore! Now their lack luster highs do make them not as good for music and I will rate them for music now. I am talking 100 dBs for music because above that the triads would fall apart which means 112 dBs at the speaker.

1. DR-200's
2. triads
3. JTR sealed triple 8's
4. eD cinema 12 upgraded
5. CHT SHO-10's
6. M&K S-5000
7. JTR original triple 8
8. JBL 4675
9. JBL 3722n
10. Klipsch KL-650

I am now focusing my energy on subs again and will be trying out a couple different subs to dethrone my current system. My current system is my favorite and having EQ and much better measuring gear helped get a proper response and much more low end so I did not have the chance to compare my eD system using the same. As of right now I will rank my favorite sub systems I have owned but know that my most recent setup has the flattest response, deepest, with the most power. I could have changed my mine with the same equipment on my older subs and why I will try some other stuff out. Anyways here we go.

1. 8x18 sealed CHT
2. Dual Danley DTS-10's
3. 8x18 eD sealed
4. 4 Cinema F-20's
5. 4 eD LLT sonos
6. Dual folded horn 18 pro subs
7. Dual double 18 vented pro subs
8. SVS 16-46 CS plus subs
9. Klipsch THX ultra 2 subs
10. SVS PB2plus
11. M&K MX-5000's

I know I could have done more with the eD sealed system with my EQ and such so now I have different subs coming to try out! BTW, it will be sealed from now on as I get the widest bandwidth as I am flat from 7-200hz with my system now so I won't chance losing the bandwidth. The Danley's did some awesome bass waves that none ever did until last night when I boosted my 10-20hz region and now I get the same effect. If the eD system did the same thing it would have been ranked higher because it did more tactile and visceral effects than the DTS-10's but not that pulse which was very cool and shocking. They were the only subs to ever do it until I figured out where it was happening so I am sure I could do it with the eD system. BTW the top 5 systems I ranked are much better than the bottom, not even close!
post #905 of 1141
Your yard sales must be quite the events!

Seriously,I ended up getting JTRs recently, in part because of your comparative analysis. I appreciate all the time and effort you've put into all of this. It's been a great service to the rest of the community.
post #906 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpc716 View Post

Your yard sales must be quite the events!

Seriously,I ended up getting JTRs recently, in part because of your comparative analysis. I appreciate all the time and effort you've put into all of this. It's been a great service to the rest of the community.

Thanks, I really like trying out different gear and I hope people can understand the sound I like by now. The JTR's would please almost anyone I would think and make for an excellent choice. I actually have to go tweak my friend's JTR front stage this weekend with his new processor I got him, the ADA cinema Rhapsody Mach 4! I will also try to convince him to move from the ptm8150 to the 7150 or MPA 502 and 2502 combo which will push the JTR's even more. The good news is even the amp he has which puts out a true 250 watts per channel into the 8's can play louder than he can stand!
post #907 of 1141
James,

Awesome stuff, thank you so much for sharing. I know many of us wish we could do this (buy, audition in room and then make the final decision) so you sharing this info is greatly appreciated!

It may be a good idea to update your first post with these comments so they might be easier for others to find later.

I find it amazing that the DR-200 was your first place choice for movies and music.

Its also great that the Chase subs ended rating so high with the new clone amp you were trying out. I remember reading somewhere that you were hitting over 120dbs at 10hz (FREAKIN' COOL!!!!) Do you think they would rate just the same with the amp offered by Chase or did that clone FP10000Q amp and your new EQ really open them up that much better?

Again...Awesome AWESOME Stuff!

Claude
post #908 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

James,

Awesome stuff, thank you so much for sharing. I know many of us wish we could do this (buy, audition in room and then make the final decision) so you sharing this info is greatly appreciated!

It may be a good idea to update your first post with these comments so they might be easier for others to find later.

I find it amazing that the DR-200 was your first place choice for movies and music.

Its also great that the Chase subs ended rating so high with the new clone amp you were trying out. I remember reading somewhere that you were hitting over 120dbs at 10hz (FREAKIN' COOL!!!!) Do you think they would rate just the same with the amp offered by Chase or did that clone FP10000Q amp and your new EQ really open them up that much better?

Again...Awesome AWESOME Stuff!

Claude

I missed this, The clone amps allow for a proper low end with their power down low so the stock amps are good, but not nearly as good as the clones. However, many people say they don't notice the low stuff so I say don't bother then. I also feel those same people never felt the low end properly in a side by side comparison. I require 8x18's in my room, I would need Notnyt's system in a big room. That is just me though.

I have a question for Bill Fitzmaurice, did you ever design an internal or even an active crossover for the DR-200's? If so, I would like to implement them and see what the changes would be. I believe if they had internal crossovers which made them flat at 1 meter many people would be buuilding these things as I believe the performance can not be matched for the money and then some. I thought I did see someone use an active crossover for them on your forum, I will go research it again.
post #909 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I missed this, The clone amps allow for a proper low end with their power down low so the stock amps are good, but not nearly as good as the clones. However, many people say they don't notice the low stuff so I say don't bother then. I also feel those same people never felt the low end properly in a side by side comparison. I require 8x18's in my room, I would need Notnyt's system in a big room. That is just me though.

I have a question for Bill Fitzmaurice, did you ever design an internal or even an active crossover for the DR-200's? If so, I would like to implement them and see what the changes would be. I believe if they had internal crossovers which made them flat at 1 meter many people would be buuilding these things as I believe the performance can not be matched for the money and then some. I thought I did see someone use an active crossover for them on your forum, I will go research it again.



MK,

Am I reading that right, 8 x 18 different subs? Which CHT subs are you using and can you explain a little bit about the amps your running them on? Do you feel like the CHT's (along with the amps you are using) are the best dollar for dollar subwoofers that you have tried so far?
post #910 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

MK,

Am I reading that right, 8 x 18 different subs? Which CHT subs are you using and can you explain a little bit about the amps your running them on? Do you feel like the CHT's (along with the amps you are using) are the best dollar for dollar subwoofers that you have tried so far?

I have 4 dual opposed 18 inch subs from CHT, their SS 18.2's and with the clone amp and DCX my bass has never been better. The eD DIY system was cheaper but the Cabs were awful looking in comparison. I have tried to keep the money the same to be fair. Bang for buck the F-20's were crazy but lacked bandwidth to the sealed designs and even the DTS-10's. They were super cheap and example of what DIY can do! It just cost more money for more bandwidth because multiple sealed subs are required. This is not the end though as I have some more subs coming to try out.
post #911 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


I have a question for Bill Fitzmaurice, did you ever design an internal or even an active crossover for the DR-200's? If so, I would like to implement them and see what the changes would be. I believe if they had internal crossovers which made them flat at 1 meter many people would be buuilding these things as I believe the performance can not be matched for the money and then some. I thought I did see someone use an active crossover for them on your forum, I will go research it again.

DR200 has an internal passive crossover. Making them flat with passive components would be totally impractical, and with DSP is totally unnecessary. An active crossover has nothing to do with response. One builder I know of had to use an active and bi-amping, as he opted for ribbons, which run some 6dB lower in sensitivity than piezos. They also increase the build cost by $130 plus the cost of the active crossover and another amp.
post #912 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

DR200 has an internal passive crossover. Making them flat with passive components would be totally impractical, and with DSP is totally unnecessary. An active crossover has nothing to do with response. One builder I know of had to use an active and bi-amping, as he opted for ribbons, which run some 6dB lower in sensitivity than piezos. They also increase the build cost by $130 plus the cost of the active crossover and another amp.

Sounds good to me. I know for some reason when I EQ with my ADA at 1 meter it sound better than my elite auto EQing at the LP and after looking at the graphs I EQ'd much flatter myself but the measurement was not in the same place. I am going back to ADA and using a couple DCX 2496's to dial them in.
post #913 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Hey guys, the Ada I have only has one crossover point and that os 80hz. I know the DR's are down 10 dBs at 80hz(I will remeasure to confirm) but was wondering how I should EQ the DR's with my subs. Will I notice the difference from 80-150hz during regular movie watching? Should I try some line arrays I taked about before? I know the Line arrays go down to 80hz and they will play loud enough at reference without strain. I was looking at Selah audio kits but I was wondering how the TLAHpro's up front with THAH's for surrounds would sound. I like the aurarray ribbons though and I always said if I could get more dynamic maggies I would be happy, maybe this is it? I know my builder could build the pro's as a finished speaker cheaper than I could get the selah kit for with eD building the cabinet. It would be about $300 difference but the Selah kits have built in crossovers.
post #914 of 1141
Thread Starter 
BTW, if anyone wants to trade me a clone amp for speakers or subs, or anything for that matter let me know. I need a 4 channel or 2 channel, FP14k or 10Q.
post #915 of 1141
Thread Starter 
I measured the DR-200's last night, mine have just high pass and low pass filters so they will be peaky in the response. I have them aiming at the LP(downward a little) and the left and right and toed in only about 10 degrees or so. I treated my room so that I wanted to hear the speakers and not the room but I still get some room interactions. I have always put in speakers without EQ and they always sound awesome! For example, M&K S-5000's, Triads, eD cinema 12's, JTR triple 8's, JBL's cinema, you name it. They have always sound excellent without any tweaking whatsoever and the DR's sound aweful without tweaking and I figured the reason was the crossover! All those speakers have crossovers so they are flat at 1 meter and when placed in my room they all have a similar response which is my room which sounds great! The DR's don't have a crossover and at 1 meter they are far from flat. Now if I was sitting in one sweet spot I would just EQ all the speakers to that one spot and call it a day however I have 7 seats and again all the seats sound really good with the other speakers with crossovers. So my thinking was to EQ the DR's at 1 meter and let the room do the same thing to them as the other speakers. I also EQ's the DR's at the seat to hear the difference and there was a difference. I can tell you to experiment and do whatever sounds best but in my room EQing them at 1 meter(each speaker was EQ'd to 1 meter) has a better sound to the room than eqing to that one spot at the LP, especially when you moved from seat to seat. Now what I did was run a sweep on each DR-200 and then let the REW EQ function set the filters for me with the DCX in place. I used 1/3 smoothing so I can see a line which without smoothing is it more like a seisometer! It is very simple, Here are the graphs. Keep in mind they are behind my screen as I wanted to EQ them how I will use them.

First here is the 1 meter response with no EQ(raw) on my left channel



Here it is EQ'd using DCX and REW(8 filters)



Here is the right channel raw at 1 meter



Right channel 1 meter EQ'd



Here is the center channel 1 meter RAW



Here is the center EQ'd 1 meter



I then used the center channel and measured what happened at the LP at 0 degrees.

Center at LP without changing EQ from 1 meter



As you can see my room does a pretty good job at keeping it tamed!

Now I measured to the far right seat about 30-40 degrees(estimated)



And finally the far left seat



You can see how the off axis response changes but overall not that bad from 14 feet away all using the center. So you can see what people are hearing from seat to seat and like I said, crystal clear and very dynamic! So I played Immortals and some music to compare this EQ to my MCAAC and I hate to say this but the Ada with the DCX sounds much better! I am also flatter at the LP than what MCAAC did and the mic was at the LP with MCAAC and I EQ'd with the DCX at 1 meter and still was flatter at the seats! The sound is just smoother and more audible. I once again can play at reference levels without any strain where the Elite was too loud at reference and hurt my ears so I turned it down anywhere from -5 to -10MV depending on the movie. With the Ada gear I set at 0 MV for any movie! Music was the biggest difference as it was more palpable like it was before! I am sorry guys but I will stick with used high end(ada at least) than brand new AVR's. The elite came the closest but I have not found one AVR so far that can play reference without sound too loud for some reason and you guys read it all the time and say how can you watch at reference, it is way too loud! Not on my Ada gear!
post #916 of 1141
Nice comparison! I would pick the ADA too. But I dont think its fair that you compare ADA+DCX against Pioneer with auto-EQ. Did you try the ADA vs Pioneer both with the same EQ parameters on the DCX? That would be an interesting comparison. I've heard MCCAC several times, and I think it destroys all dynamics and sound fatiging/thin. Thats my opinion on almost every auto-eq system actually.

If you find a BSS or DBX EQ, you should definitely try getting rid of the DCX. I went from the DCX to a DBX and it got so much better. Went from being harsh to smooth sounding. The DACs/implementation in the DCX is not very good IMO.
post #917 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post

Nice comparison! I would pick the ADA too. But I dont think its fair that you compare ADA+DCX against Pioneer with auto-EQ. Did you try the ADA vs Pioneer both with the same EQ parameters on the DCX? That would be an interesting comparison. I've heard MCCAC several times, and I think it destroys all dynamics and sound fatiging/thin. Thats my opinion on almost every auto-eq system actually.

If you find a BSS or DBX EQ, you should definitely try getting rid of the DCX. I went from the DCX to a DBX and it got so much better. Went from being harsh to smooth sounding. The DACs/implementation in the DCX is not very good IMO.

I am already smooth!
post #918 of 1141
Thread Starter 
BTW, the Ada gear with DCX was just a hair more in price than the Elite was. Of course the elite can do 9.1 and many other things that is new. A new Ada processor will cost much more!
post #919 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The elite came the closest but I have not found one AVR so far that can play reference without sound too loud for some reason and you guys read it all the time and say how can you watch at reference, it is way too loud! Not on my Ada gear!

This might be a function of your frequency response at your listening position ("LP"). Many studies suggest that there should be a downward slope at the LP. The studies seem to suggest the slope drop about 10 dBs starting around 2 Khz. As it stands, you have little to no slope until you hit 10 Khz, which can lead to a sound system that is experienced as very hard (bright). Please note that I'm referring to measurements taken at the LP and not 1 meter from the speaker.
post #920 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

This might be a function of your frequency response at your listening position ("LP"). Many studies suggest that there should be a downward slope at the LP. The studies seem to suggest the slope drop about 10 dBs starting around 2 Khz. As it stands, you have little to no slope until you hit 10 Khz, which can lead to a sound system that is experienced as very hard (bright). Please note that I'm referring to measurements taken at the LP and not 1 meter from the speaker.

I understand, but I try to get a flat response at the LP and the elite was +/- 5 dBs. It still could not play reference without being too loud. I don't think it is the response, it has to be how they calibrate with their test tones, or something else.
post #921 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I understand, but I try to get a flat response at the LP and the elite was +/- 5 dBs. It still could not play reference without being too loud. I don't think it is the response, it has to be how they calibrate with their test tones, or something else.

But why would you want it to measure flat at the LP?
post #922 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

But why would you want it to measure flat at the LP?

What other response would I want? The Elite does have the ability to tweak the bands if I wish. Trust me, I still like the elite, it was my favorite so far out of Denon and marantz but they were older models before the audyssey XT32 which I have not tried. I know I like Integra as well from a long time ago before HDMI. All I know is that it sounds amazingly good right now, there are things I can hear or understand I could not before(immortals) but I am still in the testing phase. Music was more palpable which means that I could feel it on my body more(not the subs). Maybe Ada does Reference differently I don't know because I have had people over before and thought it was lower than reference which is was not. I have also measured peaks from the same scenes and they are the same so why does one sound much louder? Who knows but I just turned it down a bit with the Elite.
post #923 of 1141
Thread Starter 
BTW I measured my Triads and M&K's and they were flat as well and the triads were softer than both. Softer meaning lightly hitting the piano rather than hitting the keys harder.
post #924 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What other response would I want?

I would use this slope:

Its recommended in most studies. I've tried both flat and the target above, and prefers the tiltet response too. (I roll of a little steeper though, because the JBL Pro drivers are better this way.).

If I were you, I would try to correct the speakers using the DCX and then do a A/B test with the ADA and the Pioneer where the Pioneers EQ has been turned off. Then you would actually compare the two processors without multiple variables.
post #925 of 1141
Thanks for the graphs, MK! Could you show me 1/6th and 1/12th smoothing on one of the graphs? The hole at 1800Hz is to be expected due to no delay compensation between woofer and piezos, as well as piezo and woofer rolloff. The off axis behavior is a little better than expected; the drawback to the design is that horizontal polars bloom once the piezos take over, and narrow in the upper range of the woofer horn. In your room, though, with limited off axis angles and lots of absorptive treatment, the uneven polar response is masked well. Vertical polars are handled easily by both absorption and careful aiming.

The big plus to this design is the headroom. It's sensitivity is very impressive. I wonder what voltage you were using during those sweeps. I bet less than 1/2V.

JSS
post #926 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Thanks for the graphs, MK! Could you show me 1/6th and 1/12th smoothing on one of the graphs? The hole at 1800Hz is to be expected due to no delay compensation between woofer and piezos. The off axis behavior is a little better than expected; the drawback to the design is that horizontal polars bloom once the piezos take over, and narrow in the upper range of the woofer horn. In your room, though, with limited off axis angles and lots of absorptive treatment, the uneven polar response is masked well. Vertical polars are handled easily by both absorption and careful aiming.

The big plus to this design is the headroom. It's sensitivity is very impressive. I wonder what voltage you were using during those sweeps. I bet less than 1/2V.

JSS

I had my processor at -30MV when I did those sweeps and the gain on the DCX for each input was -10MV and the outputs were 0. The Ada amp does not have gain controls. To calibrate to reference I had to turn up the input gains about 4 dBs per speaker. I think I saved the graphs this time so I will see what can do. My JBL's rolled off the top like you guys suggest but I prefer the extended flat response and it does not sound too loud or harsh at all at reference.
post #927 of 1141
Awesome stuff again MK! Thanks for posting all the info.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post


If I were you, I would try to correct the speakers using the DCX and then do a A/B test with the ADA and the Pioneer where the Pioneers EQ has been turned off. Then you would actually compare the two processors without multiple variables.

^^
This sounds like a great idea, MK, if you dont mind doing it. I understand that separates should be better but I'm thinking maybe (the louder/more harsh Pioneer reference levels) has to do more with that MCCAC EQ vs the Ada and manual EQ. I would think that the Pioneer would still have lots of power to power the highly efficient DRs, especially crossed at 150hz, that it would not run out of juice/headroom or be straining. I dont know as much as most here so I am probably wrong but would be cool to see whats causing the difference in reference levels between the 2 (again if you dont mind doing more testing between the two).

Had a quick question for you too. After MCCAC is done doing its thing, do you manually adjust all your main speaker levels with an SPL meter or do you leave the levels to what MCCAC had it set too?
post #928 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Hey thanks! As for the Pioneer my cousin is borrowing it right now so I can't use it yet. I actually tried different things with the Elite. I first let MCAAC do it's thing and listened to the results. I then checked the levels with my RS meter and leveled them to what I am used to which was 4 dBs lower on each main and turned the surrounds up 2 dBs each. Make no mistake, the elite was not straining, it was loud and clear with great dynamics. The Ada processor with DCX cost me $500 and the Elite as a processor with DCX would cost me $1200. The Elite has all the new bells and whistles including 3D.
post #929 of 1141
Thread Starter 
BTW, here was the responses by other speakers in room

M&K S-5000's with subs



Triads with subs



DR-200 and T-39's



These were all L&R at the LP no EQ

Here was my center DR with T-39 and EQ at the seat



Here is my DR-200 at the seat without T-39

post #930 of 1141
I do hope you try ribbons. Just want to see how you think they compare to the piezos. Great work MK.
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