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Speaker Shootout!! - Page 34

post #991 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Yes, they can be, with the right drivers and power.
JSS
PS - Rick,
Looking forward to the pics!

Here you go...

post #992 of 1141
That....

Is a very nice speaker. What's the sensitivity and power handling like on a center channel like that?

The way I understand it, the pattern control freq is lower the larger the subtended angle of the CBT, but isn't the -3dB per octave frequency lowered as well when a CBT is asked to cover a larger subtended angle? How is that addressed in a center vs main (vertically aligned, less subtended angle) design? Does more power need to be available to reach the same SPL for the center channel at high frequencies?

JSS
post #993 of 1141
Hello MKtheater. Love your thread and I really value your opinion. In a month or so I will be upgrading my LCR to JTR 888's. I'm having trouble deciding between the sealed and ported version. I'm leaning towards the ported ones. I will be running them with an Onkyo NR-809 as a pre/pro with an Emotiva XPA-3 amp. Whats your opinion between the sealed and ported? In my HT I basically do 99% movies. Thanks MK
post #994 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

That....
Is a very nice speaker. What's the sensitivity and power handling like on a center channel like that?
The way I understand it, the pattern control freq is lower the larger the subtended angle of the CBT, but isn't the -3dB per octave frequency lowered as well when a CBT is asked to cover a larger subtended angle? How is that addressed in a center vs main (vertically aligned, less subtended angle) design? Does more power need to be available to reach the same SPL for the center channel at high frequencies?
JSS

The sensitivity is a little more difficult to define since the output doesn't tail off the same as a point source with increased distance. Power handling is quite good since several drivers are handling the load. Probably close to the CBT45 in sensitivity (88db/1M) and short term power output about 120db/1M. The resistors used are designed for 400 watts RMS input.

As far as reasoning behind the design I wanted center that would provide the same tonality as the main arrays and that could keep up with them in terms of output capability. Don Keele felt that a 120 degree arc was needed to provide 90 degrees of horizontal coverage and properly place the center image. I designed a passive crossover for it that works quite well and any receiver or pre/pro with standard EQ capability can fine tune the response. I really think it's the ideal way to go for a horizontal center - low profile cabinet, high output, and smooth / controlled coverage. Excellent solution for tiered seating as well since the vertical coverage is wide due to the smaller drivers and CBT layout.
post #995 of 1141
That looks like a perfect solution to a non-AT screen theater room, with plenty of WAF.

Was I correct in that the -3dB/octave begins at the arc frequency, not the c-c frequency for the tweeters? I'm not sure....

JSS
post #996 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

That looks like a perfect solution to a non-AT screen theater room, with plenty of WAF.
Was I correct in that the -3dB/octave begins at the arc frequency, not the c-c frequency for the tweeters? I'm not sure....
JSS

Yes, below the C-T-C distance; however, there can be some changes due to the overlap from the crossover and the frequency response of the drivers.
post #997 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Hey guys, I finally put the results on the first page so everyone can find them(they were on page 31).
post #998 of 1141
MK are you still planning on putting ribons in your DR's? Very curious to see how they would compare.
post #999 of 1141
Thread Starter 
I might, I just messed around with my EQ at lunch and I have a little tutorial for people who would like to try these awesome speakers. Trust me, EQ matters and it makes these the worse speakers in my shootout to my best! They are that picky but worth it when done right. I am curious about ribbons but for HT there is no reason for them to be honest. Here are my experiences with EQ so far.

I have been tweaking my DR's lately(since they got a bad review from others in a blind GTG) and right now I have a dual stacked array of DR-200's as my mains and dual stacked of DR-250's for my center. My room is heavily treated so I EQ at 2 feet from my screen and my room keeps them flat except I get a little boost in the 80-200 hz range which is most welcomed. I will get graphs of this when I can.

First thing to know is that the DR's were made to have very high sensitivity so they could play loud with little power. In my room the DR-200's fall off a cliff(rolloff) at 180hz and my DR-250's drop off at 150hz. These were made to mate with BFM's tuba and or titan subwoofers and together would give anyone a thrill ride. Without the subwoofers all one has to do is have a great sub system that can play to 200hz to integrate these and use a 200 hz crossover. Guess what, most don't crossover that high with their home theater subs. The sub system I have currently fall off at 100hz so I needed to do something. In addition, I have a single crossover on my processor which is THX 80hz! The difference for EQ is huge for my system and I suspect the same for the guys at the meet. I think they used an 80hz crossover as well. When I EQ flat(+/- 2.5 dBs) from 200hz to 10khz I have a whole in the response from 80-200hz with my THX crossover engaged. The sound is bright, ultra clear and ultra dynamic BUT ultra sharp vocals as well! This is how I have been running them for about 2 weeks now and every scene just seems to be lacking something although they have the best clarity ever! At lunch I decided to EQ them differently to see if I can get some of that magic(feel, goosebumps, midbass, you name it) back! Here is what I did.

1. I turned off all filters and ran each speaker without subs full range. What I am doing is adding EQ at the speaker because most speakers come with built in crossovers that flatten the response at the speaker. What happens is that when I compare speakers most are flat at the seat(my room) and are also flat at the speaker(2 feet from the screen). By EQing at the speaker I am creating a level playing field with all speakers(I did this for the shootout). Now that the speakers are full range I ran a measurement and then let REW set the filters. I am using a DCX 2496, set speakers to full range, slope of 12db/octave, LF cutoff at 70hz, and I picked an spl that made me flat with 80hz being the -5 dB point. I use a range of 80-10khz with 6 dB of max gain and flatness of 1 dB. I might be missing something but I used these filters. Basically I am turning down everything above 200hz to be flat to the midbass. Most are saying what! you will lose all that sensitivity above. My answer to you is that you will gain midbass, feel, fuller sound, a neutral speaker, not bright anymore, AND still have the most clear, dynamic speaker I have heard for HT! I lost 6 dBs of sensitivity when calibrating test tones to 75 dbs but using arrays I am still above 100 dBs from 100hz and above with 1 watt but now I have midbass with these. It took me about 30 minutes to setup my mic and EQ all the speakers and run The Bridge of Kazadoom scene once. Well worth it!
post #1000 of 1141
Very cool. Nothing like great results. You know for me the DR's are like top fuel dragster motors. Very tricky to tune but once you do hold on lol! You ever look into Meyer Sound? A lot of nice active designs and their EXP cinema line is incredible. A lot of $$$ tho.
Edited by Reddig - 8/29/12 at 7:07pm
post #1001 of 1141
Yeah, if you've got the sensitivity to spare, why not use it - sounds like the result is worth it. smile.gif
post #1002 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Yeah, if you've got the sensitivity to spare, why not use it - sounds like the result is worth it. smile.gif

No kidding, From 200hz and up my center channel would be 112 dBs with 1 watt! Now it is above 105 dBs from 80hz and up but now sounds balanced and much fuller! What this does is make the speakers go from shrill to wanting to turn them up even more!
post #1003 of 1141
Very curious to see how the QSC K12's perform in the shootout. I would say they are a poormans equivalent of Meyer's EXP designs. Although they were never intended for permanent cinema applications its no secret in this community that its a solid design that does alot right at a very attractive price (dsp,active,etc)
I get the impression the DR's will most likely win out for MK but again I await for impressions. I've been back & forth with diy or commercial offering like QSC for awhile now. Thanks for doing this!
post #1004 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genelec Man View Post

Very curious to see how the QSC K12's perform in the shootout. I would say they are a poormans equivalent of Meyer's EXP designs. Although they were never intended for permanent cinema applications its no secret in this community that its a solid design that does alot right at a very attractive price (dsp,active,etc)
I get the impression the DR's will most likely win out for MK but again I await for impressions. I've been back & forth with diy or commercial offering like QSC for awhile now. Thanks for doing this!

I've heard both the QSC10's and QSC12's and I liked the 10 by a wide margin. The 12's were more shrill and less balanced than the 10s.
post #1005 of 1141
Thread Starter 
I have these DR's dialed in pretty good right now. They cost me about the same as a K12 when the DCX and amp is included.
post #1006 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfive View Post

I've heard both the QSC10's and QSC12's and I liked the 10 by a wide margin. The 12's were more shrill and less balanced than the 10s.

Shrill? Perhaps a function of the directivity of the upper range of the 12.

I'm a fan of the K-8s, but the KW series is superior for HT. The K-8s are so powerful, so clean, but the cabinet is less than optimal, compromising them IMO. They're perfect for their designed application, which doesn't include HT. But, still one could do much worse for the money,....so clean, so loud.
post #1007 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

Hello MKtheater. Love your thread and I really value your opinion. In a month or so I will be upgrading my LCR to JTR 888's. I'm having trouble deciding between the sealed and ported version. I'm leaning towards the ported ones. I will be running them with an Onkyo NR-809 as a pre/pro with an Emotiva XPA-3 amp. Whats your opinion between the sealed and ported? In my HT I basically do 99% movies. Thanks MK

I met MKtheater last december at an IMAX gtg. He was talking about the JTR Triple 8's so enthusiastically I decided to order an LCR set and put them up against my M&K S-150P's. WOW there was quite a difference. Dialog was a bit clearer, which I didn't think was possible after owning the M&Ks for so many years and comparing to other speakers, and they just sounded "larger" like the sound was coming from the screen as opposed from behind it. They are well worth the money and I'm so glad I switched. If you're into music these things rock as well. I have the JTR's paired up with an Emotiva XPA-5 and they play together very nicely. I'm sure the XPA-3 will be awesome too.
post #1008 of 1141
might be interesting to take all the parts out of QSC K series & build your own custom wood box for not much extra? Or the KW probably more practical.
post #1009 of 1141
Thread Starter 
I will assume you own Genelecs? I have not heard them myself but I hear they are awesome! Why not just stick with those? If I had Genelecs I would only want to try one speaker, Danley's!

Was that IMAX with MI4? It was great meeting you! I can honestly say that any of the top 4 speakers can be moved around, including the Sho-10's. They all sound great. I like my DR's in my room better than all as they have more dynamics and the detail is heard much easier. They all sound great.
post #1010 of 1141
I do own a pair of 8050's. They are excellent. Used to sell them when I was in the business. The 1037/38 are my favourite. Only problem w Genelecs are they are expensive. Completing my theatre w Gens isn't going to happen (2 young children) & 1 starting hockey. I'll end up in the street !! Hence my interest in diy and or good value pro stuff. My dream was always the really big Genelec 3 ways but after hearing QSC K series they really did impress. Danley would be awesome too just the price is higher than i want.
post #1011 of 1141
Yeah, it was the MI4. It was great to meet you too. If you're ever in the Albany area again we should get some kind of meet set up.
post #1012 of 1141
Here's the information on the CBT center channel...

http://www.selahaudio.com/id297.html
post #1013 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I met MKtheater last december at an IMAX gtg. He was talking about the JTR Triple 8's so enthusiastically I decided to order an LCR set and put them up against my M&K S-150P's. WOW there was quite a difference. Dialog was a bit clearer, which I didn't think was possible after owning the M&Ks for so many years and comparing to other speakers, and they just sounded "larger" like the sound was coming from the screen as opposed from behind it. They are well worth the money and I'm so glad I switched. If you're into music these things rock as well. I have the JTR's paired up with an Emotiva XPA-5 and they play together very nicely. I'm sure the XPA-3 will be awesome too.

Thanks Seegs that is high praise indeed. Im gunna be going with the sealed 888s due to space constraints. Almost have enough saved.
post #1014 of 1141
Thread Starter 
I will continue to update this list on page one. I will add any speaker I compare to the list and I will always compare to my favorite.
post #1015 of 1141
Hey MK, were you at CEDIA last week auditioning speakers? I thought I saw a picture of you.



tongue.gif
Looking forward to the next installment.
post #1016 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

Hey MK, were you at CEDIA last week auditioning speakers? I thought I saw a picture of you.

tongue.gif
Looking forward to the next installment.

What speaker is that? Impressive, did it sound good?
post #1017 of 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

What speaker is that? Impressive, did it sound good?

MK, this is right up your alley bro cool.gif Ever since I've listened extensively to Pro Audio Tech's stuff, I've been quite impressed. Last year at Cedia they demoed their smallest line, it was great.

But that pic, that's the top half of ProAudioTechnology's fully active/full DSP, double 15" four-way. His head is sticking in the mouth of the constant directivity midrange horn. It's a phenomenal 41-pound, high output-high sensitivity (114dB/1 watt) compression driver. That bad boy has a 7" carbon fiber diaphragm. Yeah, 7 inch, wide-band compression driver. The HF horn has the wonderful BMS coaxial compression driver that they use elsewhere in their line.

These ProAudioTech guys are Hales hifi guys doing pro audio style gear. They're not new to the speaker scene. Everything is turn-key, ... amps, dsp, loudspeakers, etc, very nice well integrated, well made stuff. I'll dig up pics and notes I took from the demo if anyone is interested. They big horns weren't demoed, but they did demo their single 15, three way, here;



The above has the two-way compression HF driver. They also offer a double 15 MTM version of the same.

Here's the big model.

Here is their home page for loudspeakers.
post #1018 of 1141
WOW!!
post #1019 of 1141
You know MK is reaching for his wallet as we speak. wink.gifsmile.gif
post #1020 of 1141
Thread Starter 
Cool!
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