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Minimum HDMI Cable Length (4 ft?) - Page 2

post #31 of 64
3/11/12 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


Some more questions...Does the Onkyo 709 output sound from the Blu-Ray player with the 3ft cable while the display is showing the problem? Did changing from a 3ft cable to longer one solve the problem? Can't argue with success but it just seems more likely to be an Onkyo incompatibility with the Monoprice box. However, if the longer cable worked...

To answer your questions, yes I do get audio through the 3ft hdmi, just a green screen for the display. I did try an extra 6 footer that I had laying around, that had the same problem. I also just noticed that I get the same green screen, when I use the net input on the receiver. I did another chat with tech support at monoprice today, the person I talked to today thinks I need an hdmi equalizer/booster...So I bought that and will be trying it out. The guy I talked to today did not think that the hdmi cable length was an issue at all.

Matt
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post #32 of 64
3/11/12 at 10:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWRecords View Post

To answer your questions, yes I do get audio through the 3ft hdmi, just a green screen for the display. I did try an extra 6 footer that I had laying around, that had the same problem. I also just noticed that I get the same green screen, when I use the net input on the receiver. I did another chat with tech support at monoprice today, the person I talked to today thinks I need an hdmi equalizer/booster...So I bought that and will be trying it out. The guy I talked to today did not think that the hdmi cable length was an issue at all.

Matt

I'd be really surprised if an equalizer works since you said other sources are also using 1080p/60 besides the Blu-Ray and they work. It wouldn't be the first time I've been surprised, however. Boosters usually just amplify the noise and can actually make the situation worse. Cable equalizers can help if for the proper length. The thing I don't understand is that your extender converts to Cat 6, so what cable are you equalizing? Hopefully not the Blu-Ray to Onkyo - that would make no sense.

I'm still betting on the Onkyo to Monoprice extender incompatibility. Have you check to see if the Onkyo has a firmware update available?

Try this setup and see if it works OK...

Blu-Ray --> 3 ft HDMI --> Extender --> Cat 6 run --> Extender --> 6 ft HDMI --> TV

That takes the Onkyo out of the loop but leaves everything else running.

I'm pointing a finger at the Onkyo when it could also be the Sammy and/or the Extender, although I see a lot more complaints about AVRs than TVs for HDMI compatibility. Of course if it is an interface problem then both sides of the interface can probably share the blame.
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post #33 of 64
3/12/12 at 5:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


I'd be really surprised if an equalizer works since you said other sources are also using 1080p/60 besides the Blu-Ray and they work. It wouldn't be the first time I've been surprised, however. Boosters usually just amplify the noise and can actually make the situation worse. Cable equalizers can help if for the proper length. The thing I don't understand is that your extender converts to Cat 6, so what cable are you equalizing? Hopefully not the Blu-Ray to Onkyo - that would make no sense.

I'm still betting on the Onkyo to Monoprice extender incompatibility. Have you check to see if the Onkyo has a firmware update available?

Try this setup and see if it works OK...

Blu-Ray --> 3 ft HDMI --> Extender --> Cat 6 run --> Extender --> 6 ft HDMI --> TV

That takes the Onkyo out of the loop but leaves everything else running.

I'm pointing a finger at the Onkyo when it could also be the Sammy and/or the Extender, although I see a lot more complaints about AVRs than TVs for HDMI compatibility. Of course if it is an interface problem then both sides of the interface can probably share the blame.

I tried your recommended setup and video works perfectly. Problem with that is that I lose my hdmi audio to the Onkyo. I have the Onkyo updated with the latest firmware. I'm not sure it is the receiver because before I had the receiver I was using a monoprice hdmi switch pid 5557, and it had the same issue with the bluray player. That issue was actually one of the reasons I upgraded to the Onkyo 709, to take over the hdmi switching. I also tried replacing the bluray player thinking that there may be an incompatibility with it. I switched from a Samsung unit to a panasonic unit. I should have the equalizer today, they wanted me to try it in three different positions, between the bluray and receiver, between the receiver and the extender, and between the other extender and tv. I was kinda hoping that the signal was being degraded running through the receiver and/or switch and adding the equalizer might help... Fingers crossed.

Matt
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post #34 of 64
3/12/12 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWRecords View Post

I tried your recommended setup and video works perfectly. Problem with that is that I lose my hdmi audio to the Onkyo. I have the Onkyo updated with the latest firmware. I'm not sure it is the receiver because before I had the receiver I was using a monoprice hdmi switch pid 5557, and it had the same issue with the bluray player. That issue was actually one of the reasons I upgraded to the Onkyo 709, to take over the hdmi switching. I also tried replacing the bluray player thinking that there may be an incompatibility with it. I switched from a Samsung unit to a panasonic unit. I should have the equalizer today, they wanted me to try it in three different positions, between the bluray and receiver, between the receiver and the extender, and between the other extender and tv. I was kinda hoping that the signal was being degraded running through the receiver and/or switch and adding the equalizer might help... Fingers crossed.

Matt

I just meant to use that configuration as a test, not as a premanent solution.

OK, so if you eliminated the receiver, then everything works. That would seem to indicate this is a problem either in the receiver or the extender.

You have to remember these are digital components not analog components. A "degraded signal" in this case means bit errors. So, correcting bit errors doesn't necessarily mean just boosting the voltage on a line. With the exception of boosting your Cat 6 run, there is nowhere in your configuration that appears to be susceptible to bit errors due to voltage drops.

If bit errors are being introduced in your 3' or 6' cables, then the cables would have to be faulty but the test you ran yesterday says they are fine. It also says the Blu-Ray player is fine. The TV also gets cleared since it interfaced with the extender properly.

However, not recognizing the proper EDID configuration (or failing HDCP or just parsing the video) and therefore not being able to pass that along could be the result of a faulty interface.

If your amp/eq doesn't work, then make sure you have every HDMI option disabled in the Onkyo other than straight passthru resolution. Make sure HDMI CEC is off and 3D is off (for now) and no 4K and nothing that could change the HDMI signal from what the Blu-Ray sent. The Onkyo will make some changes to the signal since it has to send a compatible audio signal to the TV but you want to minimize those changes.

Bottom line is if the amp/eq doesn't work and there are no HDMI options you can change, then I think you're looking at either trying a different brand of extender or different brand of receiver. You'll find both manufacturers will tell you that their system is working perfectly but together they can't talk properly. Both sides are at fault and neither is. It goes that way with interface problems. Only solution is to try a different chipset and many manufacturers use the same chipset throughout multiple products.

I'd ask you to try a different Cat 6 run outside-of-wall, but that cable got cleared by your test yesterday as well.
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post #35 of 64
3/12/12 at 8:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


I just meant to use that configuration as a test, not as a premanent solution.

OK, so if you eliminated the receiver, then everything works. That would seem to indicate this is a problem either in the receiver or the extender.

You have to remember these are digital components not analog components. A "degraded signal" in this case means bit errors. So, correcting bit errors doesn't necessarily mean just boosting the voltage on a line. With the exception of boosting your Cat 6 run, there is nowhere in your configuration that appears to be susceptible to bit errors due to voltage drops.

If bit errors are being introduced in your 3' or 6' cables, then the cables would have to be faulty but the test you ran yesterday says they are fine. It also says the Blu-Ray player is fine. The TV also gets cleared since it interfaced with the extender properly.

However, not recognizing the proper EDID configuration (or failing HDCP or just parsing the video) and therefore not being able to pass that along could be the result of a faulty interface.

If your amp/eq doesn't work, then make sure you have every HDMI option disabled in the Onkyo other than straight passthru resolution. Make sure HDMI CEC is off and 3D is off (for now) and no 4K and nothing that could change the HDMI signal from what the Blu-Ray sent. The Onkyo will make some changes to the signal since it has to send a compatible audio signal to the TV but you want to minimize those changes.

Bottom line is if the amp/eq doesn't work and there are no HDMI options you can change, then I think you're looking at either trying a different brand of extender or different brand of receiver. You'll find both manufacturers will tell you that their system is working perfectly but together they can't talk properly. Both sides are at fault and neither is. It goes that way with interface problems. Only solution is to try a different chipset and many manufacturers use the same chipset throughout multiple products.

I'd ask you to try a different Cat 6 run outside-of-wall, but that cable got cleared by your test yesterday as well.

Thank you for the insight... although it's definitely not what I was hoping to here after spending all this time and money on this equipment. Does the fact that I have the same issue using the monoprice hdmi switch(pid 5557)(inplace of the onkyo receiver) tell us anything? You would think that 2 pieces of monoprice equipment should interface correctly, or am wrong? You seem much more knowledgeable than the "tech" support at monoprice. The tech support for onkyo is non-existent. I sent them am email 10 days ago and finally got a response telling me to reset the video processor(literally the first thing I tried) and if that didn't work, send it in for repair.


Thanks again,

Matt
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post #36 of 64
3/12/12 at 8:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWRecords View Post


Thank you for the insight... although it's definitely not what I was hoping to here after spending all this time and money on this equipment. Does the fact that I have the same issue using the monoprice hdmi switch(pid 5557)(inplace of the onkyo receiver) tell us anything? You would think that 2 pieces of monoprice equipment should interface correctly, or am wrong? You seem much more knowledgeable than the "tech" support at monoprice. The tech support for onkyo is non-existent. I sent them am email 10 days ago and finally got a response telling me to reset the video processor(literally the first thing I tried) and if that didn't work, send it in for repair.

Thanks again,

Matt

That the switch does the same thing as the Onkyo is a good clue. It tells the problem is likely in the extender. Best test would be to try a different brand extender or to temporarily move the Onkyo closer to the TV and try with just HDMI cables (no cat6 or extenders). I know how difficult it can be to move an AVR, but it is a way of narrowing down the problem. Even a long high gauge standard speed HDMI cable would work, but I'm trying not to have you spend more money until the problem is more fully understood.

I'm not willing to say that the amp/eq 100% won't work because it might alter the HDMI data as well which might fix the incompatibility. But I don't think it will.
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post #37 of 64
3/12/12 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


That the switch does the same thing as the Onkyo is a good clue. It tells me to look at the extender as the source of problem.

I hope so... That is much easier to replace. I'll check back after I test the equalizer.

Thank you
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post #38 of 64
3/12/12 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWRecords View Post


I hope so... That is much easier to replace. I'll check back after I test the equalizer.

Thank you

Sorry, got interrupted while typing. I've updated my answer on the previous append.
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post #39 of 64
3/12/12 at 2:21pm
Well I just spent the last hour with tech support again. As you suspected, the amp/eq did not change anything. Basically we tried several more troubleshooting tests. This tech concluded that it is a handshaking issue do to introducing the switch or receiver into the equation. He said that bluray players are "more strict" when it comes to passing the handshake. He basically told me that there is no way around this, which appears to be where we are heading also, am I right?

Matt
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post #40 of 64
3/12/12 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWRecords View Post

Well I just spent the last hour with tech support again. As you suspected, the amp/eq did not change anything. Basically we tried several more troubleshooting tests. This tech concluded that it is a handshaking issue do to introducing the switch or receiver into the equation. He said that bluray players are "more strict" when it comes to passing the handshake. He basically told me that there is no way around this, which appears to be where we are heading also, am I right?

Matt

Unforunately, yes. Blu-Ray players aren't actually more "strict" as if they have tighter rules. What happens is that there are more bits per second and some converter devices can't handle the speed. There are also different options used which can also throw off a converter.

I suspect that either removal of the Onkyo or removal of the extender will cause everything to work. We know that the system works without the Onkyo, so proving that it still works without the extender would be a good last step before swapping out the extender.

This way you don't have to wonder if another extender is really the solution. You'll just have to make sure the next extender is sufficiently different than the Monoprice (not just a rebadged Monoprice).
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post #41 of 64
3/12/12 at 2:37pm
One other item, did you disable Deep Color in the Blu-Ray disc player?
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post #42 of 64
3/12/12 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

One other item, did you disable Deep Color in the Blu-Ray disc player?

I did, I disabled deep color on both of the blu ray players that I have tried. I will try bypassing the extender, it will have to wait until I have a weekend available because it will take a while to do. In the meantime, do you have any recommendations on a different extender that I'd 3d compatible?

Matt
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post #43 of 64
3/12/12 at 9:20pm
I've had reasonably good luck with Octava matrix switches (an occasional hang is the only problem). They aren't cheap but they have an extender. You might also try HDBaseT equipment - there is an active thread in this forum about HDBaseT.

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20Ethe...DCATS-100.html
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post #44 of 64
3/13/12 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

I've had reasonably good luck with Octava matrix switches (an occasional hang is the only problem). They aren't cheap but they have an extender. You might also try HDBaseT equipment - there is an active thread in this forum about HDBaseT.

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20Ethe...DCATS-100.html

Thanks again, you have been very helpful. I will peruse that thread.

Matt
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post #45 of 64
3/13/12 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

You might also try HDBaseT equipment...[/url]

I think the extender he is using is HDBaseT based.

My guess is the BD player cannot handle two devices properly acting as HDMI repeaters in series (receiver and extender).
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post #46 of 64
3/13/12 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

I think the extender he is using is HDBaseT based.

My guess is the BD player cannot handle two devices properly acting as HDMI repeaters in series (receiver and extender).

So the receiver comes in as a repeater instead of a source. I didn't know that. I had assumed it would mimic a source since it was changing the data.

Thanks for the info!
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post #47 of 64
3/13/12 at 6:37pm
Yeah, the HDMI specification defines three kinds of devices: sources, repeaters and sinks (displays). Anything between the source and sink is a repeater. So receivers, extenders, switches, etc. are supposed to meet the requirements of repeaters. Pretty much all AVRs do. The same cannot be said for other devices, in particular some extenders. Some non-compliant devices will simply pass through the signals transparently in both directions. Others will mimic a display. This non-compliance actually makes them more reliable in some ways. Part of the problem may be that your extender is actually compliant.

I don't think your issue is whether your devices can drive the next one in the chain. Your HDMI cables are quite short. You don't need additional equalization. It might even make matters worse.

If you haven't tried it yet, you might want to try forcing the output of the BD player to 1080i or 720p if you can. I am sure you don't want to run that way permanently, but it might shed some light on what is going on.
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post #48 of 64
3/18/12 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

Yeah, the HDMI specification defines three kinds of devices: sources, repeaters and sinks (displays). Anything between the source and sink is a repeater. So receivers, extenders, switches, etc. are supposed to meet the requirements of repeaters. Pretty much all AVRs do. The same cannot be said for other devices, in particular some extenders. Some non-compliant devices will simply pass through the signals transparently in both directions. Others will mimic a display. This non-compliance actually makes them more reliable in some ways. Part of the problem may be that your extender is actually compliant.

I don't think your issue is whether your devices can drive the next one in the chain. Your HDMI cables are quite short. You don't need additional equalization. It might even make matters worse.

If you haven't tried it yet, you might want to try forcing the output of the BD player to 1080i or 720p if you can. I am sure you don't want to run that way permanently, but it might shed some light on what is going on.

Thanks for the additional info. I did find that when I used the equalizer, I actually lost the signal all together. Instead of having the green screen and the tv recognizing a 1080p @ 60hz signal, I would get am error on the tv "check source, no source connected." As part of the trouble shooting with the monoprice tech, I did change the bluray output to both 1080i and 720p, both have the same results (green screen). I did notice that if I disconnect the bluray player from the receiver, the screen does not change. But if I disconnect the receiver from the extender, I get an error on the tv "no source connected." Does this tell us anything?? I know this is a stretch, but I'm hoping to find a solution that doesn't involve more, expensive equipment.

Thanks again,

Matt
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post #49 of 64
3/18/12 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWRecords View Post

Thanks for the additional info. I did find that when I used the equalizer, I actually lost the signal all together. Instead of having the green screen and the tv recognizing a 1080p @ 60hz signal, I would get am error on the tv "check source, no source connected." As part of the trouble shooting with the monoprice tech, I did change the bluray output to both 1080i and 720p, both have the same results (green screen). I did notice that if I disconnect the bluray player from the receiver, the screen does not change. But if I disconnect the receiver from the extender, I get an error on the tv "no source connected." Does this tell us anything?? I know this is a stretch, but I'm hoping to find a solution that doesn't involve more, expensive equipment.

Thanks again,

Matt

Not really, other than the problem is either in the receiver or the extender, which we already knew. That you got the same result with 1080i and 720p tells us something. This means this isn't likely a bandwidth problem (eliminates the cables) but something in the handshake.

I suspect you're looking at a new extender to make this work (although as I said before it is likely either a new receiver or a new extender).
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post #50 of 64
3/20/12 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


Not really, other than the problem is either in the receiver or the extender, which we already knew. That you got the same result with 1080i and 720p tells us something. This means this isn't likely a bandwidth problem (eliminates the cables) but something in the handshake.

I suspect you're looking at a new extender to make this work (although as I said before it is likely either a new receiver or a new extender).

I wanted to check back and let you know that my problem has been solved. It appears that it was most definitely a compatibility issue between my monoprice extender and the Onkyo receiver. I noticed in the Onkyo 709 thread that there is a firmware update that was released 3/16/2012 to address compatability issue with hdmi/cat5 extenders. After about an hour of updating my receiver everything world perfectly (even with 3ft cables and no equalizer necessary).

I appreciate the information that was provided here, it definitely helped me get pointed in the right direction. There are some very knowledgable and helpful people on this forum.

Now I must update the monoprice techs in case they have similar issues.

Thanks again,

Matt
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post #51 of 64
3/20/12 at 6:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWRecords View Post


I wanted to check back and let you know that my problem has been solved. It appears that it was most definitely a compatibility issue between my monoprice extender and the Onkyo receiver. I noticed in the Onkyo 709 thread that there is a firmware update that was released 3/16/2012 to address compatability issue with hdmi/cat5 extenders. After about an hour of updating my receiver everything world perfectly (even with 3ft cables and no equalizer necessary).

I appreciate the information that was provided here, it definitely helped me get pointed in the right direction. There are some very knowledgable and helpful people on this forum.

Now I must update the monoprice techs in case they have similar issues.

Thanks again,

Matt

Congratulations and very glad you got the problem solved!

For anyone reading this later-on, any time a handshake issue is suspected, make sure you have the latest firmware in all devices. I've been told Yamaha AVRs have the most amount of these type of issues, but my own experience is that all brands have them (although I see Onkyo issues the most).
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post #52 of 64
3/21/12 at 7:39pm
Glad you got your problem resolved.

I have two monoprice wall plate extenders. My directtv dvr works great with 3' hdmi cables. My bluray player didn't. I tried the same cables from my dvr on the bluray and no go. I tried 3 other 3' 24 awg hdmi cables and no luck. The monprice tech recommended I try a longer cable. I didn't believe him, but I ordered a cheap 6' amazon basics cable and it resolved my problem.

With the longer cable from bluray to wall plate my sparkles went away. Hope it keeps working, seems counter intuitive but with my setup it had an effect.
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post #53 of 64
3/22/12 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Congratulations and very glad you got the problem solved!

For anyone reading this later-on, any time a handshake issue is suspected, make sure you have the latest firmware in all devices. I've been told Yamaha AVRs have the most amount of these type of issues, but my own experience is that all brands have them (although I see Onkyo issues the most).

FWIW, I have a Yamaha receiver with 1, 3' certified High Speed and 2, 6' certified High Speed cables (MediaBridge) and have never experienced any handshaking issues, but my setup is pretty basic with no extenders or any other connections between the receiver and the components. The 3' cable connects the BD player to the avr, 1 6' cable connects the AppleTV2 and the other 6' cable connects the avr to the tv.
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post #54 of 64
3/22/12 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

FWIW, I have a Yamaha receiver with 1, 3' certified High Speed and 2, 6' certified High Speed cables (MediaBridge) and have never experienced any handshaking issues, but my setup is pretty basic with no extenders or any other connections between the receiver and the components. The 3' cable connects the BD player to the avr, 1 6' cable connects the AppleTV2 and the other 6' cable connects the avr to the tv.

Otto, yes it seems to be sporatic and depend upon which sources and sinks are connected. It also helps that you know what you are doing and keep your firmware up to date.

As HDMI usage continues to grow we'll get to answer more questions about firmware updates, I suspect. I'm about to replace my old non-HDMI receiver and HDMI matrix switcher with a new Denon AVR. I'm already diagramming where each piece of equipment will connect.
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post #55 of 64
3/22/12 at 12:43pm
I guess it wouldn't hurt to see if there is an update available for my Yamaha (RX-V371), but if it ain't broke...........
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post #56 of 64
3/23/12 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

I guess it wouldn't hurt to see if there is an update available for my Yamaha (RX-V371), but if it ain't broke...........

And that's exactly right. On one of the Denon processor forums a user decided to update firmware just before a party with friends coming over. The firmware update hung in the middle. It's not a 100% successful process but if someone is having problems it is one of the first things to check. Also a good idea to do periodically at a non-critical time. Eventually manufactuurers will stop support for anything but the latest version of the firmware.
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post #57 of 64
3/23/12 at 4:35pm
My bluray player issue wasn't a handshake issue (at least not as I understand it) but was sparkles in dark scenes. Almost like a bad HDMI cable, but having three bad cables seemed unlikely, especially 3 24awg 3' cables from mono price. My DVR worked with the cables.

HDMI seems great when it works, but long distance and trouble shooting sure is a headache. Plus, there is misinformation out there about "it either works perfect or not at all". I've personally experienced sparkles, audio drop out, noise, and flashing pictures. All were caused by cable issues.
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post #58 of 64
3/23/12 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

My bluray player issue wasn't a handshake issue (at least not as I understand it) but was sparkles in dark scenes. Almost like a bad HDMI cable, but having three bad cables seemed unlikely, especially 3 24awg 3' cables from mono price. My DVR worked with the cables.

HDMI seems great when it works, but long distance and trouble shooting sure is a headache. Plus, there is misinformation out there about "it either works perfect or not at all". I've personally experienced sparkles, audio drop out, noise, and flashing pictures. All were caused by cable issues.

Could it have been a problem with your BD player's output connection? I don't have any problems with 3' or 6' cables. I'm not sure about your misinformation statement. If you buy certified High Speed cables from a reputable dealer, and they work with some of your devices and not others, I'd suspect the device and not the cable.
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post #59 of 64
3/24/12 at 9:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

Could it have been a problem with your BD player's output connection? I don't have any problems with 3' or 6' cables. I'm not sure about your misinformation statement. If you buy certified High Speed cables from a reputable dealer, and they work with some of your devices and not others, I'd suspect the device and not the cable.

I am pretty sure the problem is in the bluray player. I updated the firmware last night (i keep all my firmwares updated) and it stopped working with the wall plates. I switched cables again and cycled power on everything and it all started working again. Very annoying. It has prompted me to send it all back and try a different setup. Also, when running a direct 25' cable I never had any issues with the bluray player.

What I meant by "misinformation" is if you are getting a picture then you are getting a perfect picture, but in reality you can pass hdcp and still have bit drop out. Reputable dealers are the best way to avoid problems. I stick with monoprice, or amazon basics.
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post #60 of 64
3/24/12 at 10:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

What I meant by "misinformation" is if you are getting a picture then you are getting a perfect picture...

I don't think you heard that around here. What you would have heard here is that if you aren't getting sparkles or worse, your picture is as good as it is going to get. Changing cables won't make it better in the ways we were used to in the analog world. Contrast, brightness, focus, hue, etc. aren't affected by the cable. HDMI doesn't fail subtly.
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