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Budget Eminence Coaxial surround build!!! - Page 7

post #181 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

When the time comes, why don't a few of us hop on a quick conference call to toss around some ideas for a prototype? biggrin.gif

I'm down for this. Actually, just meeting up online to chat would be fun regardless. smile.gif
post #182 of 863
Thread Starter 
Google hangout AVS style?
post #183 of 863
Since I would probably bring ZERO to the table when it comes to making a decision....I would only be there for the fellowship. biggrin.gif
post #184 of 863
I am willing to buy the beyma's and send them to whoever designs the crossovers...
post #185 of 863
Thread Starter 
Beyma already has a pre-built specific to that exact coaxial.
post #186 of 863
I'm definitely interested in the various options, Beyma looks interesting smile.gif
post #187 of 863
Beast, could the xover be built better and cheaper? I'm not saying the pre built option is not good or high quality, just curious.
post #188 of 863
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Beast, could the xover be built better and cheaper? I'm not saying the pre built option is not good or high quality, just curious.

Oh I certainly am not either, however it is readily available as a quick option. $179.00 for a pair isnt bad and the parts don't look terrible quality, but a custom XO with a little more finesse would still outperform it if I had to guess.
post #189 of 863
I've listened to some prebuilt commercial crossovers and they don't really make the cut for home use. They just make your ears bleed after a while.

I also think it would be a good idea to start with drivers we can easily get by a fairly high quantities. Beyma looks interesting, but I don't see much reason to push an 8" down that low for what they'll be used for by most people. Parts Express now carries Faital Pro. That was one brand I was going to consider last year.

It might make sense to do an Eminence coaxial to keep prices under control. Then a FaitalPro and/or B&C model for something more expensive. One of those B&C models has a compression driver on the back that doesn't test very good. I can't recall which model right now though.

I've got about 30+ different compression drivers at my house, but few are the screw on type. I do have a couple screw on BA-750's though. biggrin.gif I wonder how that would do with the Eminence 12" coaxial???

An adapter could be installed so we can use a bolt on CD, but that just moves the CD back a bit farther and creates another seam inside. It might not be an issue, but it's something to consider.
post #190 of 863
All great options on the table. There is a crossover available (model X01) for the B&C 8cx21 coax and runs about $60 if IIRC. Maybe we could get Parts Express to carry for a bit less? Or get Mtg90 to design a cheaper/better crossover, akin to what he did for the Minion.

Besides, the TS parameters for the B&C coax woofer are essentially the same as the B&C woofer in the Minion (8ps21)... we could use the same enclosure and modify the baffle slightly (get rid of the horn cut-out and center the woofer)....an BAM we'd be cooking with Crisco. (You fellas see I've given this A LOT of thought, I need cheap timbre matched, point source surrounds to match my Danley SH100s LCR which also use the B&C 8cx21!!!!). I'd buy 4-6 such surrounds speakers immediately !
post #191 of 863
If I may, some design criteria for the masses:

Cross at 80hz
Wall mounted
Angled baffle
Smallest box possible
Decent efficiency
$200-300 per speaker including crossover.

Does there need to be a crossover adjustment for near-ceiling placement or a foot or two off? Could be important.

Also, I haven't seen much excitement about the DNA-150, but the 205 has received a lot of praise!
post #192 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by a|F View Post

If I may, some design criteria for the masses:

Cross at 80hz
Wall mounted
Angled baffle
Smallest box possible
Decent efficiency
$200-300 per speaker including crossover.

+1
post #193 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

+1

+2

As cool as the beyma stuff looks, it seems to take the budget out of the title for us teacher types... Somewhere in the 200-225 per speaker is about what I have paid for surrounds in the past and would be ok with again. Erich mentioned two designs so I feel that there is definitely room for a 'budget' speaker in that range and a middle dollar speaker in the 375-450 range. Either way, I am excited to see results and get to upgrading my def tech surrounds!
post #194 of 863
I would be interested in a 10" myself...and would consider one that is a step up from a "budget" design to compliment my Noesis.
post #195 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by laeriq View Post

+2

As cool as the beyma stuff looks, it seems to take the budget out of the title for us teacher types... Somewhere in the 200-225 per speaker is about what I have paid for surrounds in the past and would be ok with again. Erich mentioned two designs so I feel that there is definitely room for a 'budget' speaker in that range and a middle dollar speaker in the 375-450 range. Either way, I am excited to see results and get to upgrading my def tech surrounds!

How are those T12's working out for you? wink.gif
post #196 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by laeriq View Post

+2

As cool as the beyma stuff looks, it seems to take the budget out of the title for us teacher types... Somewhere in the 200-225 per speaker is about what I have paid for surrounds in the past and would be ok with again. Erich mentioned two designs so I feel that there is definitely room for a 'budget' speaker in that range and a middle dollar speaker in the 375-450 range. Either way, I am excited to see results and get to upgrading my def tech surrounds!

+3
Match the Minions, in a small as possible enclosure
post #197 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post

How are those T12's working out for you? wink.gif

They are killer. I keep meaning to send you an email with pics but August sucks. Maybe this weekend.
post #198 of 863
FaitalPRO 8HX150
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-1191

VS

B&C 8C21
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-8cx21-1.htm

Rated power handling on the FP is pretty serious (500 RMS), although not sure how legit. Also confusing that 15W RMS is recommended along with their 1700hz crossover point, heh.
post #199 of 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by a|F View Post

If I may, some design criteria for the masses:

Cross at 80hz
Wall mounted
Angled baffle
Smallest box possible
Decent efficiency
$200-300 per speaker including crossover.

Does there need to be a crossover adjustment for near-ceiling placement or a foot or two off? Could be important.

Also, I haven't seen much excitement about the DNA-150, but the 205 has received a lot of praise!

looks good to me, however i think options for angle and non angled are needed
post #200 of 863
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I've listened to some prebuilt commercial crossovers and they don't really make the cut for home use. They just make your ears bleed after a while.

I also think it would be a good idea to start with drivers we can easily get by a fairly high quantities. Beyma looks interesting, but I don't see much reason to push an 8" down that low for what they'll be used for by most people. Parts Express now carries Faital Pro. That was one brand I was going to consider last year.

It might make sense to do an Eminence coaxial to keep prices under control. Then a FaitalPro and/or B&C model for something more expensive. One of those B&C models has a compression driver on the back that doesn't test very good. I can't recall which model right now though.

I've got about 30+ different compression drivers at my house, but few are the screw on type. I do have a couple screw on BA-750's though. biggrin.gif I wonder how that would do with the Eminence 12" coaxial???

An adapter could be installed so we can use a bolt on CD, but that just moves the CD back a bit farther and creates another seam inside. It might not be an issue, but it's something to consider.

I think that is a good track to take. As far as the b&c 12" I'm afraid it would go over the size limit for a whole lot of folks interested in these for surrounds. I myself like the 10's I am currently using, but would easily move down to 8's if I could match the performance. The beyma simply caught my eye as the dual concentric design fairs better in FR typically, and the response graph looks great on it. The B&C's have some excellent potential as well biggrin.gif The 8cxt is after all what seaton uses in the middle of his Catalysts, and if we did in fact end up using it as an option, I would almost certainly catapult that to a CatClone design for LCR's. As far as adapters go, I don't know how that would affect the sound, but it doesn't hurt to measure one. I do understand though that takes actually making the adapter to do though smile.gif

The 8cxn51 also looks sweet. I think that is a de250 on the back of that thing, so at least we know the CD is good smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMike View Post

All great options on the table. There is a crossover available (model X01) for the B&C 8cx21 coax and runs about $60 if IIRC. Maybe we could get Parts Express to carry for a bit less? Or get Mtg90 to design a cheaper/better crossover, akin to what he did for the Minion.

Besides, the TS parameters for the B&C coax woofer are essentially the same as the B&C woofer in the Minion (8ps21)... we could use the same enclosure and modify the baffle slightly (get rid of the horn cut-out and center the woofer)....an BAM we'd be cooking with Crisco. (You fellas see I've given this A LOT of thought, I need cheap timbre matched, point source surrounds to match my Danley SH100s LCR which also use the B&C 8cx21!!!!). I'd buy 4-6 such surrounds speakers immediately !

It certainly appears you have biggrin.gif I like the minion idea, but I also agree with Adam that having the option of the slanted orientation or the standard is good, although I think more folks would lean towards the slanted. I too have Danley's and I think any of these options would really work well with them. I went down this path long ago after buying some JTR T-12's and immediately realizing the surrounds basically could have not been plugged in after they got installed. The higher efficiency dynamic designs like we are talking about here will make ALL the difference.
post #201 of 863
^^^+1000 Beast on all counts.
Interestingly, Tom Danley mentioned he evaluated many many coaxials and found the B&C 8 coax had the smoothest/best horn throat to woofer cone transition, which is why he preferred to use it.
post #202 of 863
Thread Starter 
So for consideration for a "Nicer" 8" option, I have narrowed my list to the Beyma, and the 8cxn51 which are comparable in price, the cx21 is runner up right now, purely for the fact that the specs and CD on the cxn51 are slightly better, and it is neo, so total weight is just over 5 pounds.
post #203 of 863
Count me in on being interested in anything you come up with on the higher-end
post #204 of 863
Thread Starter 
post #205 of 863
I think the Beta-10CX and the DNA-150 would be a decent budget combo. I know I said that combo did not look good before but the recent coaxial talk here mad me look into it again. I measured the DNA-150 in the 8" Eminence again but this time at a few off axis angles at it smooth's out a lot off axis. I am listening to it with a simple 7 part crossover and it sounds great. If it works similarly for the 10CX I'd say $110 for drivers/parts is not bad at all.

Here is a quick FR. You will see two issues one is a reflection off the rear wall causing a dip at 230hz (that can be ignored) and the other dip at 1.3k is from having the hole in the middle of the driver for the horn and CD (1/4 wavelength notch).







PE has the 8FCX51:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-5766
post #206 of 863
Thread Starter 
Yea I saw that after I posted that they had it. I was looking on usspeakers and they did not. I like the response you have there, and that is with the 8 so you could expect at last another 10hz down for the 10 if I had to guess. What size box are you measuring in?
post #207 of 863
I am on board for something higher than a "budget" build Beast... wink.gif
post #208 of 863
The driver I have here is actually this one:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-890

The box is about 9.5"w x 10.5"d x 12"h or roughly 0.35 cuft with the port (which is tuned for 60hz). That response measurement was with the port closed.
post #209 of 863
It's about time you did something with that 8" combo! I never lost hope! biggrin.gif

For the 10" version, I've been wondering if the DNA-150 would be able to keep up with that sized woofer. Ideally I can find screw on compression driver like the DNA-205 with a mylar diaphragm.
post #210 of 863
I have the it crossed around 2200hz right now, the transfer function is about -22dB at 3k and -28dB at 2k and falls at about 18dB/oct (3rd order) below that. I'd wager the DNA-150 could keep up with 10" like that. The only thing that has me worried is the breakup peak at 2.6k on the 10CX, it is going to be hard to suppress that. In comparison the Acoustinator is rather tame on the top end, too bad it has "issues" among being discontinued otherwise it would have worked quite nice.

The response of the DNA-150 in the coax horn just so happens to work in a way that allows minimal parts to be used in order to achieve a nice response and good protection. I worry another CD might not work out quite as nice but I guess there is only one way to tell.
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