QSC K12, best bang for the buck or just more clever marketing? - Page 3

They're using the D220Ti and Kappa Pro-10A as the base drivers. DE250/TD12M is + $325 upgrade.

I assume you meant the Kappa Pro-12A. That is a stronger bass driver than the Delta, but IMO not as clean up top. $50 more expensive. The D220ti is a little cheaper than the PSD2002 but probably similar if not better performance. I'm generally not a fan of uncoated titanium diaphragms, but they are good for the price.

The upgraded version with DE250 and TD12M for $840 has the potential to outperform the QSC speakers. Of course it doesn't include an amp or DSP and assumes eD knows what they are doing in the crossover department (I wouldn't assume so as they have never put out this style of speaker before). Detailed polar measurements would be needed.

Yeah, my bad 12A. DE250/TD12M seems like a good deal- they definitely can build quality cabinets, but the crossover is the mystery.

Indeed the crossover is kind of a mystery.

Something youve got to wonder is how much it would cost for them to just straight up build you a 4pi cabinet with their truck bed liner finish if you gave them the plans. Have them source the DE250 and then buy the woofer from guitar center yourself. $450 shipped for an empty cabinet with the DE250 in it. Woofer costs $300... crossover for 4pi is $80?

4pi for around $850!

that way the crossover isnt a mystery

edit: if D220Ti and Kappa Pro-12a are being used, then its $150 + $50 + $60 in crossover (estimated) + $30 waveguide?

Of course theyre probably buying drivers in bulk but i doubt its that big of a discount... gotta factor in pretty immense shipping costs on a 40 lb speaker and you have a cabinet that theyre charging $150 for. I assume they would do a 4pi for $200 + $130 DE250 + $30 waveguide + $40 shipping?

$400? i am in no hurry to build speakers as of this point but if anyone is i would shoot for that as your maximum quote from ED...

Did I miss that eD agreed to my suggested DE250/TD12M upgrade??

You should really think 3pi instead of 4pi. The 3pi is the sweet spot for SQ when it comes to Pi speaker designs since the 12" woofer XO point is much nicer vs a 15" woofer XO point with the DE250/H290 horn. Wayne has confirmed already that the 3pi speaker with DE250/TD12S is the best speaker he has ever heard.

Yeah, though I believe they will build anything you request, like MK and the 3012HO. One guy in the speaker subforum thread talked to them about upgrades, he ended up just going with the DE250 (+$75), but they quoted him the TD12M as well (+$250).

It would be interesting to have a measurement shootout between the upgraded eD 12 with DE250/TD12M and the upgraded 3Pi of the same.

I just read some more of the ed vs CHT thread where someone has posted that eD will build use any driver choice including DE250/TD12M. That is pretty cool IMO!!

I would love to order a pair and then measure them but Im about 6 projects deep already

FWIW, Here are the differences between the TD12M vs TD12S

1. TD12M is a better measured driver then the TD12S from 500Hz to above 1kHz
2. TD12M has higher sensitivity (about 4dB)
3. The TD12M has better surround material (better SQ higher frequencies, better CSD).
4. TD12S is has very good extension vs the TD12M, TD12S has more Xmax (inherent to difference in sensitivity).
5. TD12M can be ported and run down below 60Hz, TD12S can be ported and run down to 30Hz.
6. TD12S can be sealed and run low too.

I own both and I do not consider the TD12S a true mid range performance driver compared to the TD12M. The TD12S though is an incredible bass driver, I can throw tons of power at it!!

Obviously Wayne feels the TD12S is a great performance driver period. I was actually surprised he uses it vs the TD12M but remember he is the expert

Have you done a 3pi clone with TD12M?

Isnt wayne a 2 channel guy? so hes going to prefer the driver that digs into 30hz... i would too honestly. Its tempting. I like the concept of not using a sub for 2 channel music because im used to LS6, and i like running subs hot and blaahh too hard to integrate for music.

Is the 4pi mainly for home theater?

also what do people think the de250/td12m crossover is based off of from eD?

Why does it cost $250 more for td12m? does it have apollo shorting rings upgrade? $250 + kappa pro = $390??

man thats an immense amount of money for a 12" driver...

edit: holy cow, shipping is a lot when buying a kit from pi speakers.. thats kind of nuts when you factor in that ed doesnt charge anything for shipping, has the td12m, and has a cabinet!!!

Wayne is not necessarily a 2-channel guy so much as he sells speakers/kits to many 2-channel guys that want extension without a sub. Wayne himself uses subwoofers.

I have to agree with Penn that the 3pi might better since the H290 holds pattern better for a 12" than a 15" and the TD12S is a little better than the 2226 along with being cheaper now. I'd like to see Wayne use the TD15S in the 4pi.

Anyway, the most important element is the crossover design. You can take a great set of components and turn out a terrible speaker. I have zero experience with eD so I can't predict if they will do what is necessary to design a speaker well.

The TD12M was about $300 shipped (Im not sure what it is now) and its worth $$ over all other 12" woofers if someone wants the best measured response and US made drivers. Does that equate to better SQ??? Im honestly not sure most people will hear a difference. I have eminence, Faital Pro, JBL and the TD series drivers. The TD series drivers are absolute beasts compared to the rest. They are hand built by John and they are definitely over built. Remember, We sometimes have to pay top $$ for US made drivers

I wonder if eD added the apollo upgrade which is an absolute waste of $$$ in terms of home usage. The upgrade just allows the driver to take more power. which is never an issue in homes.

If eD can create a DE250/TD12M solution then its a GREAT addition. Wayne's work is a very welll known so there is little to question about his designs. eD's end product is unknown so far. Maybe someone who buys the upgrades can also measure them.

$318 shipped without apollo from AE.. good to know that isnt needed. $400+ for one 12" after apollo shorting rings was a little crazy to me, but $300 is manageable for what amounts to one of the finest 12" on the market.

So I read this whole thread, but I'm not privy to some of the other stuff you guys all seem to know: Is this eD(c)12 with the same drivers as you would put in the upgraded 3pi the same design?

What does Wayne think of this? Did eD work with him, or just copy the 3pi?

I know the crossovers make a big difference if done poorly, but... if done correctly, this is a great price for a great design, no?

edit: I guess it's actually not a 3pi, as the 3pi appears to have more volume and a much smaller port size.

The 3pi is also a TD12S vs TD12M. see post 68

The TD12M + DE250 from edcinema would be very interesting. I hope someone orders one and measures it. Combined with a sub it would be a very good value for an all around speaker

DE250 crossover not done yet on edcinema... estimated to be 1.4khz or 1.5khz. isnt it supposed to be closer to 1.3khz or 1.2khz otherwise the 12" starts beaming?

They are trying to match directivity points. You can see from these measurements
http://sites.google.com/site/driverv...speakers-td12m

That the TD12M can play up to 1.4KHz without many issues. I didnt like it up that high myself but experts like Wayne Parham XO his TD12S pretty high.

1.4khz - 1.5khz was in reference to the kappa lite 12" pretty sure.

Im very close to picking some of these up... LTD im curious how did you determine it has a 1.2khz crossover?

If anyone is in Minnesota you can come listen to my lcr qsc kw-122's I just installed in my home theater. See my build thread in the speaker forum.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1383620

Minnesota in the winter... Is there a skywalk to your house?

Lol, its not nearly as bad as most think, this is a very mild winter.