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HD Audio question

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
I have A Panasonic DMP-BD65 blu ray player, which is connected to my Panasonic TC-L32U22 TV, which is connected via digital optical audio cable to my Xantech optical to coaxial converter, which is connected to my Philips HTS3566D/37B 5.1 sound system via digital coaxial cable. But I have a question. My blu ray player can decode dts hd master audio, dolby true hd, dolby digital, etc., but my receiver comes built in with only a dolby digital and dolby pro logic II decoder, because it's pretty old. I don't intend to watch movies with it though, that's what I use my blu ray player for. So since the blu ray player already does all the decoding, can my receiver play the audio via digital coaxial audio cable? Or does it need an external decoder to play those formats? I figured only discs I viewed on the receiver would require that.
post #2 of 28
No, receiver must have HDMI connection connection to pass the uncompressed high-def audio codecs (TrueHD and Master Audio). Over digital coax you will get the lossy audio, so standard Dolby Digital or DTS.
post #3 of 28
Lossless audio requires HDMI, so you are out of luck on DTS HD-MA/Dolby True HD.

Also, most HTiB such as yours are only equipped to decode DD(not DTS or anything else) via the tos-link input.

So read your manual and it will tell you what it can decode via its tos-link.

Also, the way you are doing it, all you are getting is 2.0 PCM, so there is no point in using anything other than DPL II.
post #4 of 28
Optical and digital coax are limited to the older lossy codecs (DD 5.1 and DTS) and to stereo PCM. So, there is no way to get multichannel lossless audio with your current equipment. Also, most TVs only output stereo from equipment attached via HDMI.

So, you should attach your BD player directly to the sound system rather than running it through the TV. Set the player's Dolby Digital output to bitstream. Then, when you play a TrueHD track, the player will output DD 5.1, which your system can decode for high quality 5.1. If your receiver cannot decode DTS, set the DTS output to PCM and set the downmix to surround encoding. The player will fold the center channel and a mono surround channel into the stereo output. The PLII mode on your sound system will extract those channels back out for pretty decent surround.
post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
OK thanx for sorting that out for me. The thing is, I know my tv can do uncompressed audio through HDMI, but I don't particular enjoy the sound my tv produces. Even though it's at a higher bit rate than my receiver, the bass makes a horrible "buzzing" noise when turned too high, forcing me to turn down the volume. It just isn't as rich as home theater speakers, which use a subwoofer. So I'll go with the dolby digital/dts through coax. Mainly because I just want everything connected to my tv to be connected to the receiver.
And one more small question...
If my Wii is hooked up to my tv by component, will the audio still be able to pass through the digital coax to my receiver?
post #6 of 28
Yes, the TV can do uncompressed audio over HDMI. But, it's only stereo and uses lousy TV speakers. The TV will not pass multichannel audio out to your sound system, which is why you should attach the player audio output directly to the sound system.

Yes, your TV will likely pass the analog stereo audio from the Wii to the receiver.
post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 
You answered my Wii question, but what do you mean my tv won't output multi -channel audio? If you check on the website, it says that the digital optical audio output outputs 5.1 ch audio, which is exactly what i need for my 5.1 receiver.
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjadude973 View Post

You answered my Wii question, but what do you mean my tv won't output multi -channel audio? If you check on the website, it says that the digital optical audio output outputs 5.1 ch audio, which is exactly what i need for my 5.1 receiver.

Most TVs only output DD 5.1 from their own internal tuners. Audio from devices attached using HDMI is usually limited to stereo. Perhaps you have one of the sets that will pass DD 5.1 from other sources, although I've never seen that feature on a Panasonic.
post #9 of 28
Read the manual on the page where it shows you how to connect a tos-link to an outside audio source. (most owners manuals contain the pertinent info on what exits the Tos-link in the "notes". More often than not, the "notes" are more important than the rest of the manual)

98%(if that low) of TV's only send 2.0 PCM out the Tos-link. The ONLY THING that goes out 5.1(again on AT LEAST 98% of the TV's made with a Tos-link) is the tuner...not even the apps(Netflix).

Read your manual(s), the answer to your question(s) lies there.
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjadude973 View Post

If you check on the website, it says that the digital optical audio output outputs 5.1 ch audio, which is exactly what i need for my 5.1 receiver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post

Read your manual(s), the answer to your question(s) lies there.

Hi Ninjadude973, see notes at bottom of page 27 (downmix HDMI input audio to 2Ch) and page 43 on "Digital Audio Out" section for 5.1 (from tv tuner).
post #11 of 28
Replace your Philips 5.1 system and you'll solve all your problems.
post #12 of 28
Yep you can get a real receiver that can handle lossless blu ray formats for $200, end your headache and do yourself a favor and pick one up.

Although I didn't look at your gear listed. There is another way to get lossless audio to a receiver. Like he mentions let the blu ray player decode it and send it to receiver through the rca jacks into the reciever. But I agree you're just much better off buying a real receiver and solving all your problems.
post #13 of 28
Since blu ray soundtracks employ a higher quality version of DTS and DD, and considering the speaker/receiver you have, getting the HD version of the audio will not make any appreciable difference.

Hook the blu ray player directly to the receiver (optical or digital coax) and that is all you need to do to ensure you can get the DTS or DD. Don't worry about the HD codecs until you are ready to upgrade to a receiver and speakers that will do them justice.
post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
So you're saying that If I connect my blu ray player directly to my receiver through red/white audio cables, I'll get lossless audio?
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjadude973 View Post
So you're saying that If I connect my blu ray player directly to my receiver through red/white audio cables, I'll get lossless audio?
Not in any way.

If you have a player that decodes HD formats and has 8 channel analogue outputs, and if you have a receiver that has a 6/8 channel inputs (they are RCA style inputs) then you let the player do the decoding, and that decoded signal is sent to the receiver. That will allow for HD sound through a receiver that does not decode HD formats itself.

If you connect the red and white RCA cables directly, you will get stereo only.

If you connect optical or digital coax directly, you will get 5.1 via high-bitrate DD or DTS.
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5seonds View Post
Since blu ray soundtracks employ a higher quality version of DTS and DD, and considering the speaker/receiver you have, getting the HD version of the audio will not make any appreciable difference.

Hook the blu ray player directly to the receiver (optical or digital coax) and that is all you need to do to ensure you can get the DTS or DD. Don't worry about the HD codecs until you are ready to upgrade to a receiver and speakers that will do them justice.
Except his Phillips HTIB does not decode DTS.

That's why I suggested he replace the receiver.

He could get this receiver by joining Club Onkyo (free sign up) for $129 shipped.
https://www.shoponkyo.com/detail.cfm..._id=1&detail=2
post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjadude973 View Post
So you're saying that If I connect my blu ray player directly to my receiver through red/white audio cables, I'll get lossless audio?
It appears 5seconds just confussed you even more. You cannot get lossless audio via optical or coaxial or red/white cables.
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjadude973 View Post
So you're saying that If I connect my blu ray player directly to my receiver through red/white audio cables, I'll get lossless audio?
Basic wiring 101. Modern preferred wiring scheme. Connect all input devices to audio receiver with a single hdmi cable. Then connect receiver to tv with hdmi. Done.

Second best option. Connect the video inputs to tv and audio to receiver with a single digital cable. This can be toslink or yellow rca. The red white cables only carry analog. Avoid these cables and connections whenever possible.

Third best option. Connect everything to tv and then send audio to receiver. This is what you have been doing. It works but not very good. Try to avoid this wiring scheme. A single digital cable will carry a 5.1 audio signal but a red/white cable is only 2 channel analog stereo. Forget lossless you aren't even getting digital surround sound.
post #19 of 28
Thread Starter 
So should I set the blu ray audio settings back to bitstream since the cables can't support lossless anyway, or should I just leave it on pcm so that my player decodes it, then sends it to my receiver (but only in stereo)? Or is there still no lossless even in stereo?
If I abandon all this and just use my tv speakers which play the lossless audio from hdmi, I'll get the "best" sound, but the thing is, it isn't the best sound in my opinion, because I don't enjoy my tv's horrible bass. I'm beginning to think lossless isn't worth it.
post #20 of 28
"I'm beginning to think lossless isn't "

No your worthless HTIB wasn't worth it. Buy a new receiver as they point out they are extremely cheap at this point. And from what I can tell , you'll NEVER be getting lossless anything via the tv, period. You're wrong in that it does Lossless audio.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtv00 View Post
"I'm beginning to think lossless isn't "

No your worthless HTIB wasn't worth it. Buy a new receiver as they point out they are extremely cheap at this point. And from what I can tell , you'll NEVER be getting lossless anything via the tv, period. You're wrong in that it does Lossless audio.
I agree. Forget lossless. You are not getting even basic dolby digital sent to your receiver. Don't even think about using the tv for audio. Just get your system playing normal dolby digital through your stereo. Lossless audio is only an improvement for very expensive stereos. For you lossless is a waste. And music played from your tv is a waste. Just connect a single digital audio cable from bluray player to stereo. If that won't play dd get a new stereo.
post #22 of 28
Yea that's probably true I must say. Lossless audio with HTIB speakers, I must admit that makes me chuckle. Not laughing at you my man, we all were there at one point or another.
post #23 of 28
As recommended earlier, with your existing equipment and its limitations...

1. Connect the player directly to the receiver using either optical or digital coax.
2. Set the player's Dolby Digital output to bitstream. TrueHD tracks will be output as DD 5.1 for the receiver to decode.
3. Set the player's DTS output to PCM and set the player's downmix to Surround Encoding. The player will decode any DTS track and downmix it to stereo because optical and digital coax are limited to two channels of PCM.
3A. Apply PLII in the receiver. ProLogic II will extract the surround encoding information from the player to produce pretty decent 5.1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjadude973 View Post
Or is there still no lossless even in stereo?
Stereo is still high res audio from the lossless source. But, it's only two channels, not 5.1. Using Surround Encoding produces a decent 5.1 output.

Quote:
If I abandon all this and just use my tv speakers which play the lossless audio from hdmi, I'll get the "best" sound, but the thing is, it isn't the best sound in my opinion, because I don't enjoy my tv's horrible bass. I'm beginning to think lossless isn't worth it.
This isn't about lossless. It's about the limitations of your equipment.

TV speakers will never do justice to any audio, lossless or lossy. If you aren't going to upgrade to better audio equipment, the recommendation at the start of this post is the best you can do. It'll be far better than settling for TV speakers.
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post

It appears 5seconds just confussed you even more. You cannot get lossless audio via optical or coaxial or red/white cables.

And how exactly did I do that? If there is confusion, it certainly isn't from my posts, thanks.
post #25 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thanx, you're the only one that's helped me the most. I did everything you said, and the audio sounds amazing through analog. I have another question though, My receiver has the following surround modes: Dolby Pro Logic II, stereo, and Party. For some reason, Party sounds better than DPLII. Stereo sounds just as good as Party, but the subwoofer is a bit more defined. So, pretty much, DPLII sounds the worst(it's quieter than the others.)
Why is that? And you're sure coaxial/optical supports pcm DTS HD MA/Dolby True HD in stereo form, right?
post #26 of 28
Dolby Pro Logic II (not IIx or IIz) isn't designed to create surround sound signal out of a normal stereo recording. It's designed to decode a matrix encoded surround soundtrack. When used with a stereo recording the sounds redirected to the surround speakers are accidental.

Party mode in you receiver takes the left and right stereo channels and replicates them as is to the left and right surround speakers. A stereo recording will sound normal, just louder and not positioned in front of the listener.

A an opitical or coaxil digital SPDIF connection could transmit the result of decoding a two channel DTS HD or Dolby TrueHD as two channel PCM without losing any information, but virtually all DTS HD or TrueHD soundtracks would use more than two channels. Normally DTS HD and TrueHD will be down mixed into the lossy DTS and Dolby Digital formats respectively when a SPDIF connection is used.

When you output a 7.1 DTS HD and Dobly TrueHD sound track through an analogue connection, it can either be output as 8 different analogue channels (requiring four of those red/white RCA cables) or downmixed into fewer channels, like 6 for 5.1 receivers, or 2 for receivers with only stereo analogue inputs.

In your case it sounds like you're using a single red/white RCA cable to connect your BluRay player, so the DTS HD or TrueHD soundtrack would need to be downmixed all the way down to two channel stereo. It's possible that your BluRay player is generating a Dobly Pro Logic II matrix ecoded stereo when downmixing from TrueHD, but it wouldn't do that with a DTS HD soundtrack.

(I should also point out that in your case BluRay player may not be using DTS HD or TrueHD tracks at all, and may instead be downmixing from a different audio format on the disc.)
post #27 of 28
While largely correct, there are a few questionable parts of this post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post

Dolby Pro Logic II (not IIx or IIz) isn't designed to create surround sound signal out of a normal stereo recording. It's designed to decode a matrix encoded surround soundtrack. When used with a stereo recording the sounds redirected to the surround speakers are accidental.

That's a bit overstated. PLII will work better when the source has Dolby Surround encoding. But, it also does a fine job with many regular stereo sources, and not by accident.

Quote:


Normally DTS HD and TrueHD will be down mixed into the lossy DTS and Dolby Digital formats respectively when a SPDIF connection is used.

It's not downmixed, which means a reduction in the number of channels. With dts-MA, the player outputs the lossy 5.1 DTS core and with TrueHD, it outputs an embedded, hidden DD 5.1 track. No downmixing is involved.

Quote:


It's possible that your BluRay player is generating a Dobly Pro Logic II matrix ecoded stereo when downmixing from TrueHD, but it wouldn't do that with a DTS HD soundtrack.

The OP's player can downmix with Dolby Surround regardless of the original codec. His best option with a receiver that can't decode DTS is to set the Dolby output to bitstream and the DTS output to PCM using Dolby Surround when downmixing. The player has a setting that controls whether surround encoding is used when downmixing.

Quote:


(I should also point out that in your case BluRay player may not be using DTS HD or TrueHD tracks at all, and may instead be downmixing from a different audio format on the disc.)

The OP's player will decode the track that is being played. It will only use the DTS core or hidden DD 5.1 track when Secondary Audio is turned on.
post #28 of 28
I can't believe we are still explaining this.
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