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When do the 2012 Panasonic VT series come out? - Page 9

post #241 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post

OK Panasonic - please step up to the plate and start delivering some 4K TVs. While 55" is too small for me to need 4K I wouldn't mind a 4K 85" TV.

why? there is really no use for a 4k at this time
post #242 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Since you're so good at this, how much more would it cost to produce a 1080p panel, all else remaining equal, compared to one that is only 720p?

Here's what I actually wrote:

"Clearly, my business experience and MBA doesn't qualify me to discuss this matter." :rolleyes"

Obviously, there was sarcasm intended.

I don't think that said, "I'm so good at this." Nor did it say, "I can tell you with two-digit precision what every specific change would cost on manufacturing a TV."

The methodology I used to come up with the $150-200 figure for the Smart TV vs. dumb TV was basically to look at a few pictures on the internet of what's inside modern TVs and delete a few chips that would only relate to Smart TVs, but try not to relate to "dumb" ones. Honestly, the difference between the manufacturing cost of the two is probably not even $150-200. And if you start spec-ing better filters for the dumb TVs and use other low-volume manufacturing processes, you will likely end up with a higher COGS, never mind the other parts of the process.

Now, for 720p vs. 1080p, it's worth noting that both processes are highly mature at this point. In other words, Panasonic (or whomever), is really good at making both kinds of TVs. It looks like -- using Best Buy's prices but not actually running through to checkout -- that the retail price difference between the 720p model and the 1080p model is about $200 (the X3 and the S30).

It's obvious but worth stating that even if they cost exactly the same amount to make, consumers would pay more money for the 1080p model. My guess, however, is that they don't cost precisely the same amount to make. There might be very slight differences in the electronics used since the 1080p model needs a more sophisticated scaler for example. That could be anywhere from about $1-2 to $4-5 per unit difference. Obviously, the display structure between the two is very different. The barrier rib structure and phosphor on the 1080p model has to exist for the 6 million sub pixels vs. only about half that many for the 720p model.

My sense is your question was kind of trolling and whatever answer I give will be used as "proof" that I don't know anything, but maybe I'm wrong and I just completely misinterpreted your intentions. So to that end, I'd guess that the panel structure has a difference in cost of about $10-15 between the two. Could it be more? Sure, I haven't any specific insight into plasma fabbing of late so what the actual cost is of making the PDP module (as opposed to the drive electronics, the display electronics, etc.) is something I couldn't say. About all I know for sure is that the display leaves Panasonic for something approximating half of the suggested retail price. They are making a positive margin when they do that, meaning their fully laden build cost -- including the logistics of getting it into distribution or directly to a Best Buy warehouse -- is very, very approximately $300. That estimate has a decently large error margin.
post #243 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark62 View Post

why? there is really no use for a 4k at this time

Have you seen 4K on a large screeen? I have.

4K looks much better on a large screen than 1080p. As for 4k media - while it isn't readily available, you can upscale from 1080p or lower res media to 4K. My DVDs look MUCH MUCH better when upscaled to 1080p, and likewise upscaled 1080p media will look better at 4K.
post #244 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark62 View Post

why? there is really no use for a 4k at this time

Yes, there is. You just need a good scaler, and over a sufficiently large screen, 1080p content upscaled to 4k will look better than 1080p content spread over a similarly-large large 1080p display.

Not much point for 65" and smaller unless you're sitting really close, but for those 90"+ screens, the difference would be visible.

Edit: Darn, Boe beat me to it.
post #245 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalani View Post

Yes, there is. You just need a good scaler, and over a sufficiently large screen, 1080p content upscaled to 4k will look better than 1080p content spread over a similarly-large large 1080p display.

Not much point for 65" and smaller unless you're sitting really close, but for those 90"+ screens, the difference would be visible.

Edit: Darn, Boe beat me to it.

LOL - I agree. I would say from what I've seen you even notice it as soon as you exceed 75". I was tested from 8' and 12' away and definitely noticed. My TV is about 12' from my couch and I'd love to upgrade it to at least 80" but won't do so until I can get a 4K TV that I like. I can live with 1080p on a 65" screen but I'd like something big and very high res for the living room.
post #246 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post

LOL - I agree. I would say from what I've seen you even notice it as soon as you exceed 75". I was tested from 8' and 12' away and definitely noticed. My TV is about 12' from my couch and I'd love to upgrade it to at least 80" but won't do so until I can get a 4K TV that I like. I can live with 1080p on a 65" screen but I'd like something big and very high res for the living room.

Now, if only I could afford a 75"+ display... LOL

(really want to upgrade my 65" but going bigger gets stupid pricey really fast, except for the cheapie Sharp 70" that's barely an size bump and the low end Sharp 80" that's not good quality!)
post #247 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Here's what I actually wrote:

"Clearly, my business experience and MBA doesn't qualify me to discuss this matter." :rolleyes"

Obviously, there was sarcasm intended.

I don't think that said, "I'm so good at this." Nor did it say, "I can tell you with two-digit precision what every specific change would cost on manufacturing a TV."

The methodology I used to come up with the $150-200 figure for the Smart TV vs. dumb TV was basically to look at a few pictures on the internet of what's inside modern TVs and delete a few chips that would only relate to Smart TVs, but try not to relate to "dumb" ones. Honestly, the difference between the manufacturing cost of the two is probably not even $150-200. And if you start spec-ing better filters for the dumb TVs and use other low-volume manufacturing processes, you will likely end up with a higher COGS, never mind the other parts of the process.

Now, for 720p vs. 1080p, it's worth noting that both processes are highly mature at this point. In other words, Panasonic (or whomever), is really good at making both kinds of TVs. It looks like -- using Best Buy's prices but not actually running through to checkout -- that the retail price difference between the 720p model and the 1080p model is about $200 (the X3 and the S30).

It's obvious but worth stating that even if they cost exactly the same amount to make, consumers would pay more money for the 1080p model. My guess, however, is that they don't cost precisely the same amount to make. There might be very slight differences in the electronics used since the 1080p model needs a more sophisticated scaler for example. That could be anywhere from about $1-2 to $4-5 per unit difference. Obviously, the display structure between the two is very different. The barrier rib structure and phosphor on the 1080p model has to exist for the 6 million sub pixels vs. only about half that many for the 720p model.

My sense is your question was kind of trolling and whatever answer I give will be used as "proof" that I don't know anything, but maybe I'm wrong and I just completely misinterpreted your intentions. So to that end, I'd guess that the panel structure has a difference in cost of about $10-15 between the two. Could it be more? Sure, I haven't any specific insight into plasma fabbing of late so what the actual cost is of making the PDP module (as opposed to the drive electronics, the display electronics, etc.) is something I couldn't say. About all I know for sure is that the display leaves Panasonic for something approximating half of the suggested retail price. They are making a positive margin when they do that, meaning their fully laden build cost -- including the logistics of getting it into distribution or directly to a Best Buy warehouse -- is very, very approximately $300. That estimate has a decently large error margin.


The question was a serious one, not a sarcastic one. And I don't approve of trolling. The point I keep making is that content seems to have taken a priority over quality, especially when it come to less expensive TV's. If what your saying is true, Panasonic could probably have just as easily produced an X3 series and used a better 1080p panel, and or more picture controls, before thinking about adding all those IT features, which many consumers can get from their BD player or PS 3. But like I've been saying all along, that is obviously not their priority.


Ian
post #248 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

The question was a serious one, not a sarcastic one. And I don't approve of trolling. The point I keep making is that content seems to have taken a priority over quality, especially when it come to less expensive TV's. If what your saying is true, Panasonic could probably have just as easily produced an X3 series and used a better 1080p panel, and or more picture controls, before thinking about adding all those IT features, which many consumers can get from their BD player or PS 3. But like I've been saying all along, that is obviously not their priority.

OK, so look Ian, as I said, I couldn't detect your tone.

Here's what I think is lost. This notion that there is a "better panel" out there to be produced instead of these other features. It's just not true.

Yes, the knowledge of how to build a somewhat better panel is out there; let's call it the gap from current Panasonic to Kuro. But the Kuros were thousands of dollars, not hundreds. While I do believe that having made them for several years, they'd be cheaper than they were, I don't believe they'd be nearly as cheap to make as current Panasonic plasmas are.

Can I state precisely why this is? No, I confess I can't. But what I know is that Panasonic has no business reason to deny you picture quality. If they could make all their plasmas as good as a Kuro was and sell them for the current prices, they would do it.

Again, I would like for some better TV to be out there at some slightly higher price. Absent some evidence that's possible, I'm not surprised we don't see one.
post #249 of 969
So here is the scary thing - Why Best Buy is Going out of Business...Gradually http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrydow...ess-gradually/

Quote 'With the flop of 3D televisions and the expansion of Apple's own retail locations, there was no killer product on the horizon that would lift it from the doldrums.'

This isn't good news for any of the consumer TV companies - or for us looking the best quality TVs.

Frankly all the consumer companies - manufacturer or resale - are not doing well unless they are Apple (or maybe Amazon).
post #250 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post

Have you seen 4K on a large screeen? I have.

4K looks much better on a large screen than 1080p. As for 4k media - while it isn't readily available, you can upscale from 1080p or lower res media to 4K. My DVDs look MUCH MUCH better when upscaled to 1080p, and likewise upscaled 1080p media will look better at 4K.

Eh. I can't believe you guys are excited toupscale your blurays. Native 4K would be better, no? And theres hardly any.

And i don't know why are talking about buying 4K TV's. None will be available this year or next. You want 4K now, you have to buy sonys 4K projector. Where the real benefit is IMO.
post #251 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Here's what I think is lost. This notion that there is a "better panel" out there to be produced instead of these other features. It's just not true.

I agree. However, using better existing panels on more affordable models, doesn't seem as important as adding more features, which for me
is a bugaboo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

And i don't know why are talking about buying 4K TV's. None will be available this year or next. You want 4K now, you have to buy sonys 4K projector. Where the real benefit is IMO.

Actually they are offering 4k high end projectors from other manufacturers such as JVC as well.


Ian
post #252 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Eh. I can't believe you guys are excited toupscale your blurays. Native 4K would be better, no? And theres hardly any.

And i don't know why are talking about buying 4K TV's. None will be available this year or next. You want 4K now, you have to buy sonys 4K projector. Where the real benefit is IMO.

4K TVs will be available in 2012. At least Toshiba has announced a 55" model (Already available in Japan) and LG will be showing something at CES. 4K also can be important when 3D glassless becomes largely available because there will be a loss of resolution . The cost/benefit of a 4K TV now is obviously questionable, though.
post #253 of 969
Since this thread has gotten so far off course, I will attempt to refocus everyone....

I still am not interested in the 2012 models and I still refuse to be considered an "insider" for Panasonic or any other company.....

VT50 will come in two sizes 55" and 65" just like last year. 70" is TBD.

GT50 will come in 4 sizes 50", 55", 60", 65". 70" TBD.

ST50 will come in 4 sizes 50", 55", 60", 65".

UT50 will come in 4 sizes 42", 50", 55", 60".

I have no info on the U and XT series PDPs nor the LCDs (I don't care to get any either).

Buzz words....

Neo Plasma Black 2500
Infinite Black Ultra
Smart Viera
Smart Web Browser

Enjoy
post #254 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

So here is the scary thing - Why Best Buy is Going out of Business...Gradually http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrydow...ess-gradually/

Quote 'With the flop of 3D televisions and the expansion of Appleā€™s own retail locations, there was no killer product on the horizon that would lift it from the doldrums.'

This isn't good news for any of the consumer TV companies - or for us looking the best quality TVs.

Frankly all the consumer companies - manufacturer or resale - are not doing well unless they are Apple (or maybe Amazon).

Best Buy and quality? LOL Their definition of quality is the largest and brightest TV.

Best Buy is going out of business because of high prices (and terrible customer service doesn't help)...as well as a failure to keep up with the times (i.e., growing online business). They didn't learn anything from Circuit City and need to change their business model.
post #255 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

So here is the scary thing - Why Best Buy is Going out of Business...Gradually http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrydow...ess-gradually/

Quote 'With the flop of 3D televisions and the expansion of Apple's own retail locations, there was no killer product on the horizon that would lift it from the doldrums.'

This isn't good news for any of the consumer TV companies - or for us looking the best quality TVs.

Frankly all the consumer companies - manufacturer or resale - are not doing well unless they are Apple (or maybe Amazon).

While I'm not a big fan of Best Buy, they do have their place. And eventually, our free ride from internet sales tax is going to end, taking away a chunk of savings when buying online, at which point the price differential will lessen a bit, and I predict they (and other local B&M shops) will start to do a little better. There will doubtless be some contraction, which will be worst for those who live outside of large cities and have less choice of shops in their area, but I don't see them going fully under for quite a while yet.
post #256 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Eh. I can't believe you guys are excited toupscale your blurays. Native 4K would be better, no? And theres hardly any.

And i don't know why are talking about buying 4K TV's. None will be available this year or next. You want 4K now, you have to buy sonys 4K projector. Where the real benefit is IMO.

At the moment, I'm NOT excited to upscale my Blu-rays. My biggest display is 65", and I'm 8' back, so I'm fine with 1080p. I've been in home theaters with 120" screens, however, where I can definitely see an application for 4k displays TODAY. Since there is no 4k content worth mentioning at the moment, upscaling 1080p BRs is the best we can do for now, but simply upscaling 1080p to fill a 4k projector onto those large screens will be an improvement over the current options. Once 4k content is available, the situation will be even better.

I fully agree that eventually, there will be more, better, and cheaper options than there are today. But to say that there is NO reason to want 4k today is simply inaccurate.
post #257 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Since this thread has gotten so far off course, I will attempt to refocus everyone....

I still am not interested in the 2012 models and I still refuse to be considered an "insider" for Panasonic or any other company.....

VT50 will come in two sizes 55" and 65" just like last year. 70" is TBD.

GT50 will come in 4 sizes 50", 55", 60", 65". 70" TBD.

ST50 will come in 4 sizes 50", 55", 60", 65".

UT50 will come in 4 sizes 42", 50", 55", 60".

I have no info on the U and XT series PDPs nor the LCDs (I don't care to get any either).

Buzz words....

Neo Plasma Black 2500
Infinite Black Ultra
Smart Viera
Smart Web Browser

Enjoy

Thanks.

So, is the "TBD" on the 70" a matter of WHEN it will be released, or IF it will even be released?
post #258 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Best Buy and quality? LOL Their definition of quality is the largest and brightest TV.

Best Buy is going out of business because of high prices (and terrible customer service doesn't help)...as well as a failure to keep up with the times (i.e., growing online business). They didn't learn anything from Circuit City and need to change their business model.

Agree. Bit of a shame though. I always enjoy
looking around in big box stores and did buy my Pio 4280
at a BB some years ago.
post #259 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Thanks.

So, is the "TBD" on the 70" a matter of WHEN it will be released, or IF it will even be released?

WHEN? if it was WHEN, then he would have NOT of said TBD.

get it?
post #260 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Thanks.

So, is the "TBD" on the 70" a matter of WHEN it will be released, or IF it will even be released?

Considering there are no other dates in that post, I'd have to guess "if".

I'm (relatively) sure they'll be released eventually, I'm guessing the question is whether 2012 is the year or not.
post #261 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post


Thanks.

So, is the "TBD" on the 70" a matter of WHEN it will be released, or IF it will even be released?

So far it is a when not an if. I have no info stating they are still thinking about introducing it.
post #262 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Eh. I can't believe you guys are excited toupscale your blurays. Native 4K would be better, no? And theres hardly any.

And i don't know why are talking about buying 4K TV's. None will be available this year or next. You want 4K now, you have to buy Sony's 4K projector. Where the real benefit is IMO.

Sure- native 4K would be better, and I agree there is little to no available content for the near future. But... take a look at the comparison pictures done by cine4home and others with the Sony 4K projector. There is a visible improvement in content when upscaled to 4K. How well this translates to T.V.'s remains to be seen, but larger sets should benefit more.
post #263 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post

WHEN? if it was WHEN, then he would have NOT of said TBD.

get it?

70" TBD was unclear and could have been interpreted either way. However, he clarified it.

By the way, there is no such thing as "of said". It's "have said."
post #264 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Since this thread has gotten so far off course, I will attempt to refocus everyone....

I still am not interested in the 2012 models and I still refuse to be considered an "insider" for Panasonic or any other company.....

VT50 will come in two sizes 55" and 65" just like last year. 70" is TBD.

GT50 will come in 4 sizes 50", 55", 60", 65". 70" TBD.

ST50 will come in 4 sizes 50", 55", 60", 65".

UT50 will come in 4 sizes 42", 50", 55", 60".

I have no info on the U and XT series PDPs nor the LCDs (I don't care to get any either).

Buzz words....

Neo Plasma Black 2500
Infinite Black Ultra
Smart Viera
Smart Web Browser

Enjoy

Ah the death of the small plasma...
post #265 of 969
First 37, now 42 all but gone.

Now that I think about it--this is concerning.
Guess I'll have to go OLED in the bedroom when
the 4280 gives up.
post #266 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Ah the death of the small plasma...

Whattya mean? There are plenty of small 50 inchers on that list

But yeah, it looks like there's only one remaining series offering the 42" size this year (compared to three in 2011), and no more 46" size at all.
post #267 of 969
at CES a media storage for 4k movies will most likely be announced.
post #268 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Best Buy and quality? LOL Their definition of quality is the largest and brightest TV.

I don't disagree - but the point is neither Consumer Companies or the Retailers are making money at this point - there are no killer products driving consumer demand. As the article says ''With the flop of 3D televisions and the expansion of Apple's own retail locations, there was no killer product on the horizon that would lift it from the doldrums.'

Unfortunately the consumer TV companies are responding with more bells and whistles (3D, connected TVs, etc) but nothing frankly that differentiates them, excites consumers and helps their margins (and hence investment in new products). It is just bigger, cheaper, 3D and we have all the apps (just like everyone else).

Let's see what CES brings next week.
post #269 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Whattya mean? There are plenty of small 50 inchers on that list

But yeah, it looks like there's only one remaining series offering the 42" size this year (compared to three in 2011), and no more 46" size at all.

Probably goes to show that the manufacturing costs are about as low as they can get on the smaller units. Would not suprise me if the raw costs of a 42" are about the same as a 50".

If you combine that assumption with the current race to huge panels (70" and beyond), you can see why Panasonic is trimming their smaller panels.
post #270 of 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by m4bama View Post

at CES a media storage for 4k movies will most likely be announced.

The lemmings are running to streaming. It's fast, convenient and there are no longer b&M outlets for optical discs. Most streaming services struggle with 1080P. I would image a 4K media would need to be optical, which makes me wonder iff there's really any market to re-coop R&D costs.
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