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DIY Synergy horn - Page 9

post #241 of 278
60hz?

How much room do you have?

I've been designing horns since 1994. Bring it on buddy!

Mark
post #242 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulspencer View Post

Lately I've been working on the bass aspect:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...ergy-bass.html
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...continued.html
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...ss-part-3.html

Basically it's a 60L sealed box for the 18" Magnum drivers, but the shape is different to fit in the corner. In my room this should get down to about 40 Hz with no boost.

Regarding S2, in their new home they will live with a pair of 15" woofers.

I was at my mate's place over the w/e, the one who is helping me with the woodwork for mine and the drawing and sketches to detail what I wanted to achieve in mine came out similar in many ways to yours. I've emailled him a link so that I can use your pics to clarify. My ply is veneered so I need his skills to make it all go together smooth.

As for this comment "It will be difficult to match the clarity of the horn loaded system to that of a vented or sealed box. Very different type of sound timbre." my response, having built full range (but not using FR drivers) FLH systems is that is BS. I've also heard William's Unity system and it was definitely not correct even up to TJ levels. To build a FLH to 50Hz with worthwhile performance, it's going to be large, taking up much more space than you obviously have.
post #243 of 278
Thread Starter 
Brett, is there an unintended "not" in there?!

Quote:


I've also heard William's Unity system and it was definitely not correct even up to TJ levels.

Quote:


my response, having built full range (but not using FR drivers) FLH systems is that is BS.

So we have two different opinions, let's not start a debate here. I have my sealed boxes almost built, they are very practical. If a horn loaded option comes up that I could live with in my room, I just might build it, even if for the fun of it. I might even make it a new year's resolution to build at least one bass horn in 2012.

Mark,
This will all go into a bass trap, flush mounted. It will be 1.2m wide on the hypotenuse and a 30/60/90 rectangle. It can't protrude much beyond that as this is a small room. I was contemplating something like an Avantgarde bass horn - imagine one piece of the pie in each corner, about 900 x 900mm x 700 high. I think it's a bit much. I would compromise extension over size, needs to get down low enough to mate with a 15 - 70 Hz tapped horn and extend up to about 250 Hz.
post #244 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

To build a FLH to 50Hz with worthwhile performance, it's going to be large, taking up much more space than you obviously have.

You can't beat the laws of physics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulspencer View Post

Brett, is there an unintended "not" in there?!

No that sentence was a continuation from the previous point where William's system suffered no audible discontinuity because of having DR's supplementing the Unity.
post #245 of 278
I'd love to try a DIY Unity that can hit 300. I'm table flat from 30-300 already, need better tops.
post #246 of 278
Hey Paul,

Fantastic work! Thanks for sharing! I will without a doubt be building some variation of this synergy horn for my HT. I'm interested in your 45x90 horn, because I assume that it reduces the vertical response, and thus ceiling/floor bounce. Do you have vertical measurement data for your 45x90? Also, what do you think about a horn that is even narrower vertically? I'm not sure how one uses hornresp to model horns that are wider than they are tall. Anybody?

Thanks,
John
post #247 of 278
'Sound is round' and what HR predicts. The higher the aspect ratio, the higher its distortion ['color'] and why some pros use multiple drivers in line array/ribbon like aspect ratios.

The late Altec Vari Intense single driver horns were just that:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...ro/1993-24.JPG
http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...ro/1993-25.JPG

GM
post #248 of 278
Thread Starter 
Brett, I get it now.

John,
The Synergy likes it narrow as this gives you more bottom end extension, but I want relatively wide coverage horizontally, so the vertical is reduced to compensate. Try modelling a 90 x 90 and you realise there is no extension. I'm not too concerned about floor and ceiling bounce, although I think of it as a bonus. I have not measured the vertical, but it's on the cards.

Making it narrower vertically means mounting the mids becomes difficult.

If you put Synergy horns in that room, you would want to build in some toe-in I suspect to widen the sweet spot. You also may not need a 90 degree version, your room having two rows and only seating two side by side. At a guess I'd say you'd be looking at one quite a bit more narrow. Perhaps 60 x 40. Modelling appears to become a bit less accurate as you have to work out the area but Hornresp doesn't know it isn't axi symmetric. In your room I would also probably push them further apart, adding an angled soffit. Conventional wisdom says don't put speakers in corners, but you can pull it off with a Synergy horn and you can also put a bass trap there. The result can look built-in but in fact you can have a freestanding arrangement with the horn decoupled, which is what I will soon be doing.
post #249 of 278
Thanks very much, guys. Paul, you and I are on the same page- I had already planned to put the left/right channels in the corners, a la Klipsch. I'll have to build some prototypes, and I'll start w/ a 60/40.

Much appreciated,
John
post #250 of 278
Hi Paul, all
Something happened which is kind of humorous (as in I didn't get the citation). Since someone that attended took a video, I thought being a large 4 way synergy horn, it might be funny to post it here.
We used generation loss recordings in the beginning to get a handle on where the changes were taking us, I think it comes out here in this fellows video too.

The Reps for the area where the shop is outside Atlanta had an open house last week for us and Digital projection. There were speakers inside but they did a couple demos' outside in a large space and that was our first informal public demonstration of a new Synergy Horn a J3.

This is a perfect bedroom or desktop speaker, one 48 inch tall horn under 400lb, 6X horn loaded 15's, 8X 6 inch sealed back horn drivers, four BMS coax compression drivers. Time coherent, no pattern flip, measures like one broad band driver.

One of the fellows the Rep's invited apparently took a video of the system up close which sort of captures the directivity and the fidelity fairly well. About 2 min into it, whoever it is panned out to the field where the people (including me) were.
Everyone had walked around listening between 100 yards and out to 300 yards because it sounded essentially the same everywhere, just a little quieter.
The reason, unlike arrays of sources, the spectral balance doesn't change with distance or angle within the pattern, wind has little effect, only hf absorption and inverse square are the enemy.
Here, having one single lobe (with a very high degree of forward directivity), you aim that at the back row and the underside of the CD lobe contours the loudness. That is the same as toeing in, putting the loudest part of the lobe at the farthest seat.
Anyway, this came out nice, use headphones.

Video #`1 somebody named Wayne's video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MOG_sPejGA

As a result of the effect, a caravan of people took off in cars to hear from farther away. Mike shot the second video from the sun roof of his truck from about 1500 feet but I would have guessed farther.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2587095730763

A decent breeze was blowing too.
What outdoor sound event would be complete without some angry cops too haha.
Next time maybe sound effects would be in order, I hid speakers in my back yard once in the 80's and played frogs and airplanes as loud as I could (next to a swampy area). Well I noticed it anyway haha.
Best Regards
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays.
Tom Danley
http://www.facebook.com/DanleySoundLabs?ref=ts
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/
post #251 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post

Hi Paul, all
Something happened which is kind of humorous (as in I didn’t get the citation). Since someone that attended took a video, I thought being a large 4 way synergy horn, it might be funny to post it here.
We used “generation loss recordings” in the beginning to get a handle on where the changes were taking us, I think it comes out here in this fellows video too.

The Reps for the area where the shop is outside Atlanta had an open house last week for us and Digital projection. There were speakers inside but they did a couple demos’ outside in a large space and that was our first informal public demonstration of a new Synergy Horn a J3.

This is a perfect bedroom or desktop speaker, one 48 inch tall horn under 400lb, 6X horn loaded 15’s, 8X 6 inch sealed back horn drivers, four BMS coax compression drivers. Time coherent, no pattern flip, measures like one broad band driver.

One of the fellows the Rep’s invited apparently took a video of the system up close which sort of captures the directivity and the fidelity fairly well. About 2 min into it, whoever it is panned out to the field where the people (including me) were.
Everyone had walked around listening between 100 yards and out to 300 yards because it sounded essentially the same everywhere, just a little quieter.
The reason, unlike arrays of sources, the spectral balance doesn’t change with distance or angle within the pattern, wind has little effect, only hf absorption and inverse square are the enemy.
Here, having one single lobe (with a very high degree of forward directivity), you aim that at the back row and the underside of the CD lobe contours the loudness. That is the same as toeing in, putting the loudest part of the lobe at the farthest seat.
Anyway, this came out nice, use headphones.

Video #`1 somebody named Wayne’s video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MOG_sPejGA

As a result of the effect, a caravan of people took off in cars to “hear” from farther away. Mike shot the second video from the sun roof of his truck from about 1500 feet but I would have guessed farther.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2587095730763

A decent breeze was blowing too.
What outdoor sound event would be complete without some angry cops too haha.
Next time maybe sound effects would be in order, I hid speakers in my back yard once in the 80’s and played frogs and airplanes as loud as I could (next to a swampy area). Well I noticed it anyway haha.
Best Regards
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays.
Tom Danley
http://www.facebook.com/DanleySoundLabs?ref=ts
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/

Props' Tom,

The YouTube video shows the silly amount of pattern control underneath... That's crazy.

The amazing part isn't so much the 1500' listening distance on it's own, but the fact that it obviously sounded good at 30' and 1500' at the same time... Now that's some acoustic HP.

How long before you get rid of the crane and just build a 2-4 pc stackable support that doubles at copying the behavior to ~30Hz?

Merry Christmas.
post #252 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post

This is a perfect bedroom or desktop speaker, one 48 inch tall horn under 400lb, 6X horn loaded 15's, 8X 6 inch sealed back horn drivers, four BMS coax compression drivers. Time coherent, no pattern flip, measures like one broad band driver.

Great to see the J3 in action! Finally you are building a home hifi speaker At only 48" tall I will take two

Have a great Xmas & New Years!
post #253 of 278
This is a perfect bedroom or desktop speaker

LOL....would be nice.
post #254 of 278
Thread Starter 
I know you like speakers with a bit of kick Tom, but is a Jericho alarm clock really necessary?! lol
post #255 of 278
Hey Tom,

Once again, thanks for helping all us lowly DIY'ers out with your time and insight.

Merry Christmas,
John
post #256 of 278
HI Mark, all
Yeah, the pattern control is pretty amazing when the horn mouth gets to be four or five feet tall and it acts like it has one driver over a the entire band.

I guess the breakthrough in these compared to the other smaller Synergy horns is finding a way to combine more than one compression driver into the horn system, the mids and lows are easy but when the wavelength gets to be smaller than the driver, well, another strategy is needed.

The solution for that, sort of a lens / combiner on the JH-90 / J1 took about four months to figure out, the rest of that was easy except for the low end, that was another issue as the goal was to not need a sub.
With an lf output of about 3kw acoustic, the first version could literally shake itself apart.

The switch to one inch Birch and a boat load of bracing raised the weight to a level I wasn't happy with but it is those first J1 stadium installations last year that lead to a bunch more this year.

It has been cool seeing these big installations but a number of times I had wished you and Jeff were along to hear them as in Mark should hear this. I was sitting at the farthest seats at BYU listening to the system playing CD's and the only thing going through my head was that they could play action movies here for a large crowd. That system sounded great at 102dBA slow at 750 feet (they had 4 J1's and 6 TH812's under restraint due to the seats directly under them..

Anyway, the J2 which I am still fiddling with has 42 drivers and is the same size but much more powerful than the J1 except for the low end and the J3, the box in the demo is a little stronger than the J1 except for the extended low cutoff, has 22 drivers, is smaller and is array able.
The neat part is you can sit a few feet away in front of any of these as a stereo and they sound and image great too, no minimum distance etc because there is in effect only one acoustic source.

The fun part is that these sound so much different and work so much better than the normal stuff that when you get a stadium owner or athletic director that is unhappy enough with the sound to get involved, they couldn't care less how new the system is, what speaker company the installer is in bed with or what company the solution comes from as long as it really works.

Check out the facebook page at some of the install's this summer (our web page is way behind, the new one isn't done yet).

http://www.facebook.com/DanleySoundLabs?ref=ts


In the demo at Penn state below, the large California line arrays (two years old) sound so bad that a demo of three arrayed sources won the job to design a new system (a J2 forward, J1 right and left). In the video, they are the little black glob under the scoreboard.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=...type=2&theater

http://www.fohonline.com/index.php?o...=5658&Itemid=1

Anyway, this is getting fun now, eventually someone will figure out you can show movies to a huge group of people now haha.
Hey, say Hi to Jeff too.
Merry Christmas all
Tom

Yeah, a Jericho alarm clock, I could imagine a whole range of practical jokes, such as using it to wake your neighbors with sounds of a helicopter or plane crash, maybe the attack of the totally enormous frogs? It would be easy to hide one or several of something with this much throw for humor purposes.
post #257 of 278
Very cool stuff Tom. Glad to see that these big installs are popping up for your team. Merry Xmas.

How about a Danley gathering / demo in GA similar to what Klipsch does sometime? I bet there would be a lot of interest.
post #258 of 278
Hi Tom,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post

With an lf output of about 3kw acoustic, the first version could literally shake itself apart.

!!!

That's 4 HP, enough to power various sorts of demolition devices.

If a bird accidentally flies in front of the mouth, will its feathers be torn off? Would a person's eardrums be shredded?
post #259 of 278
Thread Starter 
There is now an S3 in progress!

Some initial details here:
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...ergy-horn.html

Very similar to S2 in form, but with smaller mids, looks like it will be Celestion 4" sealed back (yes the one that is hard to get). I'm aiming for a higher crossover point and will give up a little extension. Response looks to be smoother than S2 before EQ.



The main trickery will be mounting the mids as before:



Due to the size of the horn, around one metre wide, these little mids still get very good extension, down to about 250 Hz. The woofer will be coupled closely enough that I don't see a real benefit in putting woofers in the mouth. They will only see horn loading down to about 200 Hz, then below that they will run as direct radiators. As I see it, this means spending more on better drivers. So it could mean say 4 or 8 drivers. That's quite a bit more expensive, combined with two more DSP and amp channels. Already I'm approaching the Shroeder frequency with the horn loaded mids.

This is where I think for a DIY version and with home use, it's a little different. In a pro setup you might have the main speakers flown up high, with a big cluster of pro subs on the ground separated by quite some distance meaning phase issues come into play.

In my case the c-c distance of the woofers and horn is only half a metre, one wavelength @ 688 Hz. I'm not too far off crossing at 1/4 wavelength distance vertically. However, if you look at a typical 6" mid + 1" dome crossing at 2.4k the vertical centres are one wavelength apart. So my woofers are actually more closely coupled vertically!

So if you are like me and already have subs, woofers, compression drivers, DSP and plenty of amps, a project like this can be done for peanuts.

There is a minimum order for the Celestion mids so there will need to be a group buy. Stick your hand up or send me a PM if you are interested. The price is expected to be quite appealing.
post #260 of 278
Thread Starter 
Celestion mid now tested on S1 and compared to simulation:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...-mid-test.html



There will be a group buy with the 4" Celestion mid:
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2...-midrange.html

We need to move 120 of them to fulfill a minimum order, anyone interested shoot me a PM. You will need to order in boxes of 12, let me know how many boxes you want if more than one. The price will be very attractive because a wholesale price will be passed on in this group buy. So you simply pay wholesale price + shipping from the US.
post #261 of 278
Thread Starter 
Update: I've managed to get my sims closer than previously when I looked more closely at SD which I had entered as lower than it actually is.

Regarding the group buy, we have enough to fill the order if everyone follows through. If you are interested and haven't contacted me about it yet, shoot me a PM. We might have a few who don't go ahead. This is a fixed order and details are expected to be finalised soon, hopefully next week. Keep in mind this may be the only chance to get this driver and you are getting it at a wholesale price with no one making money on this. After the group buy is done, you won't be able to get this driver, not even at twice the price.

When I get the chance, I will provide some data to help with sims, including driver parameters I have been able to measure as well as a measurement file of the driver on S1. You will be able to overlay a hornresp sim with the actual measurement in REW. Easy to do. Then you can modify the design if you want a different coverage angle, or a higher crossover, etc.
post #262 of 278
Thread Starter 


One of the weaknesses of S2 was the vertical beamwidth, which did not extend very low. Horizontally there was a little beaming at the bottom end, seen as a narrowing of the beamwidth before pattern control is lost at 280 Hz. I suspect that the second flare section was in fact not big enough. In S3 I'm going for a larger second flare and the coverage angle I'm aiming for is 60 x 80. There is a relationship between:

mouth size
coverage angle
frequency at which pattern control is lost

Where the goal is to maintain a contstant beamwidth down low, a big mouth and wide angle is needed. There is also a trade off with bottom end frequency extension and the number of drivers. My 90 x 40 horn had nice extension, but it was difficult to fit the drivers on the vertical walls. Why 80 x 60?

S1
60 x 60
Pattern control to 850 Hz

S2
90 x 40
H:
280 Hz
V:
1.4k

S3
80 x 60
930 x 650mm mouth
H:
340 Hz
V:
650

The drivers are then easier to fit and mount close to the throat, giving me a higher crossover point and less phase shift. This one will better control vertical dispersion down to lower frequencies, pattern control to 650 Hz. Coverage wide enough to suit the room with wide seating, but a bit less HF to the walls. Good extension to 250 Hz. I have a workable design, although I'm now investigating with Akabak.



I've written on my blog about how with more top end extension, there is less phase shift. This is shown with some sims on the blog:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com.a...s3-design.html

It's one of the key differences in this design.

I was going to build this in ply, I have some marine ply on hand, but after using some of it on another build I think MDF is actually going to be easier to spray! So this is likely to be MDF with damping applied on the back of the horn walls. Looking into my CNC options shortly when I have a final design together. Coming soon! This is the one I plan to spray and mount flush in a bass trap.

I now have a tapped horn 20 Hz sub which works nicely, sealed box pro 18" woofers. S3 will complete the system.
post #263 of 278
Sounds like a good plan, Paul. I've done homemade conical horns w/roundover at 80 degree horizontal coverage. My room requires seating quite close to the front speaker pair, and relatively wide spacing between the speakers. With the 80 degree coverage, I wasn't able to get the time/intensity trading (using speaker toe-in) to work as well as with 90 degree waveguides such as the QSC. I'm now using the 90 degree SEOS15, which do very well, I get a very good center image even sitting directly in front of either speaker. So for my Synergy attempt, I'll still probably go for 90 degree horizontal, but 60 degree vertical.
post #264 of 278
Thread Starter 
Decided to compare Akabak vs Hornresp to an actual measured example with the driver I'm using.



Black is the measured response of the Celestion 4" closed back midrange on S1. Red is Hornresp, green is Akabak.

This is with the 4" Celestion placed on S1 with just one port operating.

There is more on my blog about it, including the Akabak script and Hornresp details:

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com.a...surements.html

Attached is the REW file. This is for anyone who wants to overlay their own results. You can export from either Hornresp or Akabak into REW so you can easily compare. Very handy for anyone working on their own Synergy horn to start with a measured example, so it gives you an idea of the level of confidence in your model.

 

S1 with one port and single Celestion - measured vs sim.zip 248.8291015625k . file
post #265 of 278
Thread Starter 
For those in on the group buy that have paid ... I've just got notice they have arrived in the US. Please send me full postal details (full name, address). Unless you want it addressed to your alias.
post #266 of 278
Anymore progress on this SH?
post #267 of 278
Thread Starter 
I'm now getting it ready for CNC, the plans have become more elaborate and it's taking longer than expected ...
post #268 of 278
I am still up at arms whether to try and do one of these with lots of questions asked to you or to do something like the DR200 which has plans already. But I really like the idea of making something a bit more DIY. I am wanting to still use these for outdoors so the SH seems like it would be better but not sure if I can build it.

Are you doing a 80x60 with the celestion speakers?

I was thinking of using the Erich's CD's because I wanted to order them anyways. Still would have to find a midrange but thats why I am following this thread.
post #269 of 278
Thread Starter 
Yes, S3 will be 80 x 60.

I can't think of a better option outdoors than a Synergy horn wink.gif

Eric's CDs are looking very interesting indeed.
post #270 of 278
Paul are your drivers always going to be exposed?

Wondering if I would need to build a box around mine to keep elements from getting on them in case of weather. PLUS I wondered how I would put something like the S3 or other on a stand. I figured the box would not effect the sound due to the drivers being closed back. Thoughts
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