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The "official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A710/810/1010/2010/3010 thread - Page 85

post #2521 of 2855
Last night I reset my 3010 to Basic and ran YPAO. All 11.1 of my speakers were recognized.

Ross was right..........I was wrong.
Thanks Ross.


While watching a movie last night, I noticed that one pair of the rear speakers were greyed out. I know the manual says the receiver will decide when to use these, but I thought it would be dynamically chosen.
Does anyone know how these get chosen?
Edited by JeffreyJonesBSME - 5/31/13 at 11:05am
post #2522 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post

Yes, you're more likely have the receiver shutdown (or worse if the protection circuitry fails for any reason). Still I don't think having one speaker 4 or 5 ohms instead of 6 is going to make it significantly more likely. I would be more concerned if you were going to hook up five additional 4 ohm speakers.

Thank you, unless someone here strongly disagrees with you I'm going to buy the speaker. Should there be any problems I can probably sell it for the same price again.

Do you have any thoughts on the Bi-amping terminals supporting 4ohms like the front-terminals? I mean, the back of the AVR says it supports 4ohm front speakers when set to 6ohm, and the AVR support Bi-amping. So if the bi-amping (woofer) terminals were 6ohms only that would be the most retarded hardware design ever.

In the manual it says this under specs:
Quote:
❑ Audio Section
• Rated Output Power
(20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.06% THD, 8Ω)
Front L/R .............................................................110 W+110 W
Center ............................................................................. 110 W
Surround L/R.......................................................110 W+110 W
Surround Back L/R .............................................110 W+110 W
(1 kHz, 0.9% THD, 8Ω)
Front L/R .......................................... 135 W/ch (120 W+120 W)
Center ...........................................................135 W/ch (120 W)
Surround L/R.................................... 135 W/ch (120 W+120 W)
Surround Back L/R .......................... 135 W/ch (120 W+120 W)
(1 kHz, 0.9% THD, 4Ω) [U.K. and Europe models]
Front L/R .................................................................... 170 W/ch
• Maximum Effective Output Power (JEITA, 1 kHz, 10% THD, 8 Ω)
[China, Korea, Asia and General models]
Front L/R .................................................................... 165 W/ch
Center ........................................................................ 165 W/ch
Surround L/R.............................................................. 165 W/ch
Surround Back L/R .................................................... 165 W/ch
• Dynamic Power (IHF)
Front L/R (8/6/4/2 Ω) .................................. 135/165/210/280 W
• Damping Factor
Front L/R, 1 kHz, 8 Ω ............................................. 150 or more

As you can see the Front L/R is clearly marked as 4ohms at the bottom of the "Rated output power" section. However the "ZONE 2/F.PRESENCE/BI-AMP" terminals I use for the woofers are not listed in the specs. So... 4ohms or 6ohms?

It also says
"• Dynamic Power (IHF) Front L/R (8/6/4/2 Ω)..." So does that mean the front speakers could be as low as 2ohms even? Why else mention it in the manual? This is truly very confusing biggrin.gif
post #2523 of 2855
The rated power spefications are not meant as recommendations, and as ones for models sold outisde the US aren't subject to the FTC's Amplifier Rule don't necessarily reflect realistic operating conditions. The dynamic power numbers in particular are only for what the reciever can supply in short fraction of a second bursts. As the actual impedance of a speaker varies according to the frequency of the sound it's playing, the actual impedance of a nominal 4 ohm speaker can vary from 2 to 8 ohms depending on the frequency of that burst. The nominal impedance given in speaker specifications is an average over time whem playing most music.

All of the speaker terminals in your receiver are connected to identical amplifiers all powered from the same power supply. There's no actual difference between them electrically. The 4 ohm front and 6 ohm everything else minimuim requirement reflects what the designers think the receiver can drive safely without having the protection circuitry kick in at expected listening levels. The more you deviate under these recommendations the more risk you're taking.
post #2524 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post

The rated power spefications are not meant as recommendations, and as ones for models sold outisde the US aren't subject to the FTC's Amplifier Rule don't necessarily reflect realistic operating conditions. The dynamic power numbers in particular are only for what the reciever can supply in short fraction of a second bursts. As the actual impedance of a speaker varies according to the frequency of the sound it's playing, the actual impedance of a nominal 4 ohm speaker can vary from 2 to 8 ohms depending on the frequency of that burst. The nominal impedance given in speaker specifications is an average over time whem playing most music.

Thank you. That got a bit technical, but I think I understood the essence of it.
Quote:
All of the speaker terminals in your receiver are connected to identical amplifiers all powered from the same power supply. There's no actual difference between them electrically. The 4 ohm front and 6 ohm everything else minimuim requirement reflects what the designers think the receiver can drive safely without having the protection circuitry kick in at expected listening levels. The more you deviate under these recommendations the more risk you're taking.

Okay it makes sense that they are all identical. So 4ohm for my woofers too. That's good. What's not so good is that I already have four of the seven amps driving 4ohm speakers (two for each speaker because of bi-amping). So if I add the L Center too that would be 5/7 amps driving speakers at 4ohm, and the last two running either 6 or 8ohm surround speakers (8ohm if I buy the other pair).

Wouldn't that end up being exactly what you're advising me not to do?
post #2525 of 2855
I can't quantify the risk you'd be taking except to say that you'd be operating the receiver out of spec, as you already knew. In all likelihood you'll have no problems at with your proposed set up. There are people who use all 4 ohms speakers and leave the receiver at its default 8 ohm setting and have often recommended that others here do so as well. They're running their receivers way more out spec then you're proposing and apparently they haven't had any problems. So all I can say is that you're taking more of a risk, but you should be OK.
post #2526 of 2855
Okay thank you very much biggrin.gif
post #2527 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konsolkongen View Post

Okay thank you very much biggrin.gif
Maybe you should consider not bi amping. Some believe there really isn't much of a difference with bi amping an AVR as opposed to using truly separate power amps. Now if you are hearing a difference then keep it as it is, but if not, maybe not bi amping will lessen the load. I'm no expert, but just a thought.
post #2528 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konsolkongen View Post

Thank you. That got a bit technical, but I think I understood the essence of it.
Okay it makes sense that they are all identical. So 4ohm for my woofers too. That's good. What's not so good is that I already have four of the seven amps driving 4ohm speakers (two for each speaker because of bi-amping). So if I add the L Center too that would be 5/7 amps driving speakers at 4ohm, and the last two running either 6 or 8ohm surround speakers (8ohm if I buy the other pair).

Wouldn't that end up being exactly what you're advising me not to do?
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post #2529 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappaduke View Post

Maybe you should consider not bi amping. Some believe there really isn't much of a difference with bi amping an AVR as opposed to using truly separate power amps. Now if you are hearing a difference then keep it as it is, but if not, maybe not bi amping will lessen the load. I'm no expert, but just a thought.

I was considering this too. But not bi-amping would result in less power to the speakers, and if I remember correctly it's supposed to minimize crosstalk where the sound going to tweeter and middle tone can sometimes get the woofer moving, or somthing like that smile.gif
To be honest I have never tried not bi-amping using the Yamaha. But perhaps I'll try it later today.

EDIT: Perhaps I'm dead wrong. I thought that bi-amping through and AVR would filter out the unneeded parts of the audio automatically, so to eliminate crosstalk and practically doubling the power sent to the speaker.
I was aware that there was something called passive and active bi-amping and that the AVRs only had passive.

I just did some searching on the matter and this came up:
Quote:
An active crossover takes the full-range output from your preamp (AVR) and splits the signal into high (HF) and low (LF) parts before it gets to the power amps that drive your speakers. The power amps thus only "see" a limited frequency band so all their power is focused in that band. With a good crossover you can fine-tune the crossover frequency, slope, and phase to really dial-in your speakers. This eliminates (or bypasses) the passive crossover built into the speakers, something that is not always optimal for every room and that does have some loss.

The passive biamping capability of the AVRs under discussion sends a full-range signal to each amp and you use a separate amp for HF and LF. This does not really unload the amp except that the speaker's built-in crossover (which must remain in place in this set-up) rejects the out-of-band power so the amp need not deliver load power outside the crossover point. However, ost all amps are voltage devices, so the voltage swing is still being used even if the out-of-band output current is low. The result is very little (approaching nil, IMO) practical benefit with "passive" bi-amping. The out-of-band signals are still taking away dynamic (voltage) range from the amplifiers, the AVR's power supply must still deal with the same load, and the overall power into the speaker is about the same (twice the power over half the bandwidth, net no gain).
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1348770/bi-amping-no-flame-no-theory-just-real-world-ear-based-experience#post_20721254

So if the Yamaha works the same way, it basically sends the same signal twice, but the internal filter of the speakers cuts the signal in half anyway, roughly speaking. So there's a good chance I've just been wasting power all this time...? And that disabling bi-amping would give very much the same sound and power? :O
Edited by Konsolkongen - 5/31/13 at 9:10pm
post #2530 of 2855
Even if the power was being divided between the low and high drivers in your speakers when bi-amping, it wouldn't be dividing it evenly because the energy in your source material won't be split evenly between high and low frequencies. So you'd might only get 25% more power overall from splitting the load between two amplifers. Except you might not even get that because all the amplifiers share the same power supply, and that will often end up being the limittng factor.
post #2531 of 2855
I'll need to try with and without bi-amping later today to see if I can hear any difference. It seems like I shouldn't be able to though smile.gif
post #2532 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konsolkongen View Post

I'll need to try with and without bi-amping later today to see if I can hear any difference. It seems like I shouldn't be able to though smile.gif
You can find all kinds of arguments both for and against bi amping, especially passive. My opinion is try it without and see if you notice any difference. Of course auditory memory is short so this will be difficult at best. But if you don't need the extra amplification from your AVR , it could save you some worry. I don't bi amp, but I have a 2010 with speakers in all three zones. I bought and inexpensive amp just to drive my outdoor speakers. The reason I did was to not have to worry when I drive all three zones during family gatherings.
post #2533 of 2855
Yeah it's not going to be easy when you have to spend a few minutes swapping speaker cables in between. I better get to it though. I don't want to annoy my neighbors late at night with too high a volume.
post #2534 of 2855
I'm done testing.

First I popped in Dream Theater - Black Clouds & Silver Linings (original CD of course) and listened to the track called "The Best of Times". I did this with my normal setup (bi-amping) and it sounded great of course.
Next I spent a good 10 minutes trying to get all the speaker wires bi-wired on the back of the AVR, this was quite tricky smile.gif. Turned on the AVR, switched to normal amp distribution (no bi-amping), played the same song and it sounded so flat when the acoustic guitar kicked in frown.gif There is a world of difference, at least with my setup.
I reversed the setup and I'm back to bi-amping and straight away when the acoustic guitar kicks in it runs shivers down my spine as that track always does, it sounds so warm and detailed.

I'm surprised as I expected to hear very much the same audio quality without bi-amping. Especially considering the threads I stumbled upon last night where passive bi-amping is called nothing more than placebo.

In all three tests I had the volume at -30db, used the STRAIGHT setting on the AVR and had the bi-amp setting adjusted accordingly of course.

The speaker-wire I'm using is this kind with tinned silver threads for the tweeters:
http://www.av-cables.dk/viablue-hoejttalerkabel/8011.html

Perhaps that makes a small difference somehow? I got the wires marked "Low pass" hooked up to the Front L/R terminals and to the tweeters of the speakers. Likewise I have the "High pass" wires connected to the Extra speaker terminals and to the woofers of the speakers.

So I guess there's no getting around having 5 of the 7 amps driving 4ohm speakers, as passive bi-amping clearly works for me, and I already paid for the JBL L Center smile.gif Hopefully there won't be a problem, but I'll keep an eye on the heat generated by the AVR, just in case.
post #2535 of 2855
Did you reinstall the jumpers connecting the two sets of terminals on your speakers or adjust any bi-ampng switch they might have? To do the comparision properly you also need to use an SPL meter to match the volume levels. In the absense of one, if you end up doing this again, try increasing the volume and seeing if that fixes the problem. If you ran YPAO to calibrate your bi-amp setup you should run YPAO to calibrate your non-bi-amp setup. The receiver can switch between two sets of speaker settings do you don't need to lose the old YPAO calibration.
post #2536 of 2855
I don't have the metal plates that connect the terminals on the back of the speakers. But isn't it the same when they are connected at the AVR?

For YPAO I use the Front setting where it doesn't mess with the front speakers at all. So that should not have influenced the test smile.gif
post #2537 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konsolkongen View Post

I don't have the metal plates that connect the terminals on the back of the speakers. But isn't it the same when they are connected at the AVR?

Ross is right. Without the metal plates between the terminals you need two outputs from the AVR to the speakers (passive biamping). If you don't have the metal plates and you're not biamping, then you're going to hear a big difference. Any time you hear a big difference with passive bi-amping you can be sure you're doing it wrong.
post #2538 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Ross is right. Without the metal plates between the terminals you need two outputs from the AVR to the speakers (passive biamping). If you don't have the metal plates and you're not biamping, then you're going to hear a big difference. Any time you hear a big difference with passive bi-amping you can be sure you're doing it wrong.
I agree. I recently helped a friend setup a new system. She couldn't figure out why her Polk towers (can't remember the model) did not have as much bass as when she heard them in the store. After some investigation I noticed she had disconnected the metal plates that connected the two sets of terminals on each speaker. She was only sending power to the high end and that's why they were sounding so thin. My point is kriktsemaj99 is exactly correct.
post #2539 of 2855
?

This is how I wired the speakers up when disabling bi-amping:


I really don't see how that's any different than using just one pair of wires and connecting the terminals on the speaker. In the end it should be the same, but with more wire smile.gif

I'm not that stupid that I would just connect one pair of the speaker terminals and leave the other one unconnected wink.gif
post #2540 of 2855
One problem with bi-wiring it like that is that it's more prone to error, if you didn't connect red-to-red and black-to-black correctly on all four cables then the drivers would be out of phase. Another is that since your cables are apperently fairly different there maybe enough of difference resistances to have an audible effect.

Anyways, I would've thought it much easier to install the metar bars and do all the cable adjustments at the speakers.

If you do end up testing again then using Pure Direct will completely bypass all DSP processing and ensure that YPAO doesn't factor in.
post #2541 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post

One problem with bi-wiring it like that is that it's more prone to error, if you didn't connect red-to-red and black-to-black correctly on all four cables then the drivers would be out of phase. Another is that since your cables are apperently fairly different there maybe enough of difference resistances to have an audible effect.

I took the wires from the Extra SP terminals and connected them to the corresponding Front Speaker terminals one by one. They are connected correctly, I don't just connect stuff at random smile.gif
Quote:
Anyways, I would've thought it much easier to install the metar bars and do all the cable adjustments at the speakers.

If you do end up testing again then using Pure Direct will completely bypass all DSP processing and ensure that YPAO doesn't factor in.

As I said I don't have the metal bars for the speakers unfortunately. But if you think that the silver/tinned wires could have influenced the sound when bi-wiring I should be able to remove such differences if I try the same setup again, but also put a small piece of wire between the terminals on the speakers?

EDIT: Just to clarify, this is what I mean:


Is that worth trying?
Edited by Konsolkongen - 6/2/13 at 9:08am
post #2542 of 2855
Argh goddammit. When I moved into this apartment I didn't have any internet. I just received my speaker wire and didn't know if High Pass or Low Pass connected to the tweeters or woofers. I thought it made sense that high pass connected to tweeter, but as I wanted to be sure I asked a friend if he could google it for me. He claimed that Low Pass connected to the tweeter and High Pass to the Woofer terminals. I took his word for it and now I see that he was wrong:

http://ww2.mitcables.com/articles/installing-and-burning-in-your-cables.html
Quote:
If your speaker cable is an MIT Bi-Wire product, observe marking on tails labeled "high-pass" and "low-pass." Connect "high-pass" to high-frequency or tweeter inputs. Connect "low-pass" to low-frequency or woofer inputs.

I should have checked this myself when I got my internet up and running but completely forgot. Bear with me please as I swap the wires on the speakers and test with and without bi-amping again cool.gif
post #2543 of 2855
Seriously, all this bisexuality is much ado about nothing.
Unless you have separates and speakers that cost 5k each, there will be no difference other than the placebo effect
post #2544 of 2855
So you're saying that the low/high mix-up of wires, thanks to my friend won't make any difference? In that case Bi-amping is still better. I'm not trying to convince myself that bi-amping is better. if you read my previous posts I'm actually hoping that there is no difference so my AVR wouldn't have to drive 5 speakers (two of them are for bi-amping) at 4ohms. But with the low pass wires for tweeters and high pass wires for woofers there was a big difference in favor of passive bi-amping.

I won't be able to test it until tomorrow. It took a while to change the wires because it's difficult to get behind the speakers. I'll let you know if there's a difference.
Edited by Konsolkongen - 6/2/13 at 6:43pm
post #2545 of 2855
3010 Question

I recently purchased a CES Demo Blu-ray and I saw it had some sound tests. I decided to try.

When I ran the 7.1 test, my surrounds and rear channels were not discrete but joined. The speakers are wired correctly, because when I run a test tone they are discrete. I must have something set wrong. I have my receiver set to Movie Theater...Sci-Fi.


I have my setup set to Basic and ran YPAO.


Any opinions?
post #2546 of 2855
Today I got to listen to the AVR with the High Pass silver wires going to the tweeters and Low Pass tinned wires going to woofers. This made a noticeable improvement smile.gif
I then tried switching to Bi-wiring and now that sounded much better than last time I tested. I then went back to Bi-amping again to compare. While the difference is now much more negligible than during the last test, Bi-amping still sounds better cool.gif

I have tried to illustrate the main difference I noticed here below. I was listening to a track with a part where a constant piano tone played and you hear two drum bass beats every few seconds. With bi-amping the piano sounds the same when the drums are playing. But with bi-wire the piano sound level drops noticeably while the drums are playing.



That's the best I can do to describe the difference, hopefully it should be clear what I mean.

I did todays test with the volume at -25db and Pure Direct mode enabled.

Now onto something else; Isn't it possible to create a SCENE with Pure Direct enabled? As far as I can see it can't be done frown.gif My current CD SCENE uses STRAIGHT only and then I have to manually switch to Pure Direct. Truth be told I can't hear any difference in the two, but it would be cool if it would use Pure Direct mode automatically, just in case there is a slight difference smile.gif
post #2547 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konsolkongen View Post

...I did todays test with the volume at -25db and Pure Direct mode enabled.

It's not enough to use the same volume setting, you need a meter to check how much extra volume bi-amping is giving you, then reduce the master volume by that amount. If bi-amping plays even 0.5 or 1dB louder it will tend to sound better when really it only sounds louder.
post #2548 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyJonesBSME View Post

3010 Question
When I ran the 7.1 test, my surrounds and rear channels were not discrete but joined. The speakers are wired correctly, because when I run a test tone they are discrete. I must have something set wrong. I have my receiver set to Movie Theater...Sci-Fi.

Try using the Straight sound program, the Sci-Fi program may do some channel mixing in order to create its effect. Also, make sure that your rear speakers are attached to the surround back speaker terminals and check to see if your Blu-Ray player is actually sending a 7.1 signal ([On Screen] -> Information -> Audio Signal).
post #2549 of 2855
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

It's not enough to use the same volume setting, you need a meter to check how much extra volume bi-amping is giving you, then reduce the master volume by that amount. If bi-amping plays even 0.5 or 1dB louder it will tend to sound better when really it only sounds louder.

Even if there was a difference in volume I could clearly hear the difference in the piano as illustrated. With bi-amping and -35db it still sounds perfectly even when the drum bass plays. So it's not a volume issue smile.gif
Edited by Konsolkongen - 6/3/13 at 2:03pm
post #2550 of 2855
Your description of what your heard is perfectly consistant with a difference in volume, and we know fact that there was a difference in volume.

Anyways, at this point I don't think it matters, you've got the cables already connected, you don't need the amplifier channels for anything else and you've lost the metal bars for your speakers. You might as well leave it bi-amp'ed even if you haven't actually shown that it makes a difference.
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