or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › 3D Central › 3D Source Components › Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder - Page 6

post #151 of 580
I think that Z10000 is leader of 3d camcorder for this price. Yes, It is my dream have quality of 20000$ professional camcorder at 3500$ price ))). But price it is marketing. Unfortunately I can see difference in quality of video even between Z10000 and my Canon EOS 550D
post #152 of 580
andrey- If shooting as an amateur, you buy what you can justify in the hobby. As a professional shooter for hire or producer of programming, you buy what equipment is necessary for that level of your industry. I had no problem spending $60K for a broadcast cam kit when I was traveling the country shooting for hire with the agencies and also working for several TV shows. Those budgets were quickly amortized because the gross income was there to afford them. Today, I'm retired from all that. Sold much of my equipment and I'm replacing with a level of camcorder that meets my new requirements as an amateur. ( Meaning I no longer shoot people for hire) I'd love to have a TD20 for it's size. I wouldn't mind owning a Z10000 but I feel when the day comes to haul a 3D camcorder around all day and into the evening, I would grab the TD20 first, the TD10 second and the Z10000 would remain back at the hotel. Probably, if I had the TD20, I would use it most of the time and only get the TD 10's out when needing a two cam shoot, such as ultra stereo base or shooting interviews from two perspectives. As for my SR12, I think I'm going to give it to my nephew who is seriously considering a career in TV. He is a very capable editor now and really needs a good camcorder.
post #153 of 580
Thread Starter 
Don, off course I ment the "professional version of the TD10" - but since it is in the end a TD10 mainly, I wrote TD10. I know that they have added 1080 24p and an professional audio section - but that is it. Beside that I still like the TD10, what is a fine camcorder - but I mislike the idea to add 1080 24p (knowing that professional will gear for that) and an audio section only, and ask for the 3times price. That is a price policy that is at the best oligopolistic behaviour, and that is something that I do not like really.

Additional experiences with the Z10000? Well, I would say there is a lot of that - but simply spoken the Z10000 fullfills what Pana has promised, and I think that is the best that you can say really. There are some small minor points that could be different, but that is true for every product - and will also depend on personel behaviours and likes.
post #154 of 580
Quote:


I know that they have added 1080 24p and an professional audio section - but that is it.

Not entirely. That may be all you know about but there is more such as 96Gb internal flash memory vs 64. One cam for world wide support 50i and 60i selectable, Time code embedding are other additions. As I recall it has additional on screen display data not available in the TD10 too.
post #155 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

dwhite601
Thank you for the panasonic test clips. The quality video of Z10000 is better than TD10 for any mode by my opinion. But color depth is not as for professional camcorder, unfortunately.

I should have pointed out that my Z10000 was set to record XV color. XV color is not available for 3D video in the JVC TD1, so my TD1 recorded in standard (sRGB?) color space. I have my Panasonic plasma TV set to display XV color.

My impression as a consumer was that the TD1 produced more bold, richly saturated colors than the Z. On the other hand, the Z10000's colors, as displayed on my Panasonic, were a better representation of what I saw with my own eyes.

The TD1 doesn't offer in camera control over color, but the Z10000 has many options including several gamma curves. For the second test, I chose Scene 6 (Cine D) which uses the default color saturation setting. Scene 3 (Spark) is designed to provide a more bold look. I plan to keeping my Z mostly on scene 6 because it best mimics a wider dynamic range.
post #156 of 580
Quote:


I should have pointed out that my Z10000 was set to record XV color. XV color is not available for 3D video in the TD10, so my TD10 recorded in standard (sRGB?) color space. I have my Panasonic plasma TV set to display XV color.

Not true.
Are you sure you know how to access this setting?
In the TD10 menu while the camcorder is in 3D mode, you go to Image quality/size. x.v. color is the ONLY option that is permitted on the TD10 in 3D mode in this section as all others are fixed to one setting. Touch it and you select on or off.

Hope this helps you and others get better color performance from your TD10.
post #157 of 580
Quote:


My impression as a consumer was that the TD10 produced more bold, richly saturated colors than the Z. On the other hand, the Z10000's colors, as displayed on my Panasonic, were a better representation of what I saw with my own eyes.

Let me point out something here which, hopefully will aid in understanding what this does.

In early days of "true color" the pallet was represented by 64000 colors made from combining red green and blue. The problem with this limitation was seen as a banding in any gradient shade such as the gradients in the blue sky at high noon. Technology improved this to 8 bit color space which resulted in more colors, 16.7 million. The banding began to disappear. But then along comes HDTV and in HD the banding returned but was so fine only a trained eye could see it. None the less, it was there. So, we increase the bit depth of the color space and enter X.V color which improves the gradients in recording the natural shades of a gradient color. The banding is all but gone. X.V. color becomes especially important for larger screens.

The bold rich color you are observing may be a result of a better color matrix, or rather a nice selection of color matrices often offered in pro cameras but rare in consumer camcorders. More common in TV sets, where you can select what you prefer. such as cinema 1, cinema 2, sports, TV Broadcast, presentation, user custom etc. The TD 10 offers none of these options. However, my broadcast cameras have them and in some models you can program one camera and send the settings to all other similar cameras on the shoot and save to a memory card for later upload.

While you can't create higher bit depth in post, changing the color mood with a different matrix is easy to do on all modern digital editors. In high end edit suites this task is usually done by a trained specialist called a colorist.
post #158 of 580
Don, the impression I get is, being a consumer camera, the JVC TD1, records a somewhat over saturated image because JVC expects most users will just watch their video either direct or with the minimum of editing. Many consumers like bright colors. I got a similar output from my old Sanyo Xacti CA6 pocket camera/camcorder. It wasn't all that great for video, but made real pretty stills.

Panasonic, however, probably expects the Z10000's video to be more heavily edited so the camera defaults to a more accurate color matrix. It does offer the ability to 'punch up' the video in camera.

The more cartoon like colors have their place, but I prefer more natural colors and, as you have mentioned, modern TV's have the ability to change the colors anyway.

I've read that our eyes are only capable of distinguishing around 2 million colors so 16.7 million colors should be enough. They aren't, though, because our eyes (along with our other senses) respond logarithmically while video is encoded linearly. This means that 8 bit color (256 levels per primary color) has too many bright shades and not enough of the darker shades. Since we won't go to nonlinear encoding, the problem is solved with more overall resolution.
post #159 of 580
dwhite601-
Lots of theory and opinion there. I don't necessarily agree with any of it but I respect your opinion.

I guess the original point was that the Panasonic is a great entry level prosumer camcorder geared more toward those needing more control than the average consumer who places more importance on adequate quality at a reasonable price in a small easy to carry package than a larger camcorder with lots of buttons to learn and 3+ times as much as most would consider to spend.

If there was a market for broadcast 3D video production, I would not feel comfortable using the Z10000 anyway and would prefer something more with broadcast features. As I know the industry and what's expected, the Z10000 would never cut it for agency work. (where the money is) As I said, it is a good prosumer camcorder for weddings and events and I feel 3D can have a market in this industry too. In this market a better fit would be Panasonic's middle camcorder. It sells for about $16K.
post #160 of 580
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Not entirely. That may be all you know about but there is more such as 96Gb internal flash memory vs 64. One cam for world wide support 50i and 60i selectable, Time code embedding are other additions. As I recall it has additional on screen display data not available in the TD10 too.

And that are additions that justify the price for you, Don? At least not for me.
post #161 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

And that are additions that justify the price for you, Don? At least not for me.

No, but they may be for some.

First of all, I don't need 24p absent 5.1 audio. I can do 3D 24p now with 5.1 using my TD10 pair. I also know how to produce adequate conversions absent of any visible stuttering of the 1080 60i MVC to BluRay 1080 24p x 1920 5.1 DTS so shooting in 60i doesn't concern me. I don't need embedded time code. I have superior wireless mics using BT technology with IFB that works with my TD10. Or I can connect my professional wireless system into my TD 10 with 2x xlr to stereo mini adapter. Basically the NX3D1 has no incentive for me even at same price as TD10. As stated before, if I wanted to spend $3400 and didn't mind the size, I would be buying the Z10000.

Speaking of 24p shooting in 3D- I began editing my Valley of Fire Documentary last week and have now paired all the clips with keyframed corrections. Three hours worth! The 3D and image quality is absolutely breath taking. Most of the video was shot with 29" stereo base using UV filters and the TD10 in FX mode with XV color. I won't complete the project until after April as I have two more areas of the park to cover and a couple of pickup shots I missed. I just ran out of time and light on the last day of my trip in January. We're planning to go to NAB and then 6 days to rap up Valley of Fire and then on to Bryce Canyon for a few days to shoot that project.
post #162 of 580
Thread Starter 
The major advantage of using TWO Sony TD10 is the capability to change the IO - to my opinion. And since you can record in 2D with each camcorder and in a progressive mode, you can also use all the manual adjustments that are not available in 3D.

The major draw back could still be the existing conversion needs for 3D BD-R, to end up with first class footage. Fine if you have found now a way for a first class conversion from 60i to 24p - to my opinion such a conversion still is not easy really, at least not with our tools. What is your solution here now?

I know that there is a perfect conversion from 50i to 24p, but that is for the PAL world only. But you may lough, I think about to purchase a second TD10 exactyl for that purpose - as long as the TD10 is still available. To combine my TD10 with my Z10000 would not be the best idea, I think - not with a sbs-3D-rig at least. But with two PAL TD10-units, you could film in 1080 50p with each of the camcorders in 2D, that could be converted to 1080 24p in a fine way.

I would love to be part of the party to capture the Bryce Canyon - I really loved the national parks when I visited the States some times. Would be great to see your production! I got wonderfull footage of a sunset in the Grand Canyon shoot with my old FX1, but off course that is no 3D at all!
post #163 of 580
I don't believe there is a mathematical perfect conversion but rather a conversion that is good enough that any stutter or hesitation is undetectible. I believe I have achieved this with the process we worked on together last Fall. Left to right and right to left motion on screen is completely smooth on a 240Hz projector. FWIW, all video including my commercial blu-ray discs have a visible degree of stutter on my Vizio 60 Hz monitor. Considering how I use the Vizio, this is tolerable.

If I had no project plans for these outdoor large scenic landscapes, I wouldn't have gotten into ultra stereo base 3D. But, after seeing the results in my tests, I made the serious move to build the system in a way that I could quickly set it up and easily do air travel with the rig.

While you can get results with two unmatched cameras, it will be a nightmare to calibrate. In addition you can also get good results easy with two unsynced camcorders but you will have to give up zoom, and sacrifice shots where the lighting changes or the cameras pan. Basically unsynced cameras will be stuck in a static lock down shoot restriction where the light doesn't change. So what this means is that you will need a device that can not only sync the record pause but also the exposure, iris, gain white balance and zoom control of the two cameras. There are many sync devices that have come and gone but most of those were designed for still cameras, not video. The Lanc Shepherd does everything through Sony Lanc. Basically that's the only one that will give you the freedom you will want. But the bad news is that finding one will be a challenge. I waited for months and finally cancelled my order because a fellow forum brother sold me his. So, if planning to go into twin video cams, it's best to be sure you have a way to sync the cameras. Others have bigger systems that work too. One of your neighbors in Europe just PM'd me with his system that is software based and runs on a netbook. I don't know what the limitations are but his work is very well done. So what he does is working.

The Bryce Canyon project will be timed after NAB. My wife and I will be spending a few days vacation in central Utah to sight see and me shooting the scenery. If we had more time I would head over to Arches too but that will have to wait until next year. I was there several years ago.
post #164 of 580
Thread Starter 
I know about the issue with the controller - there is one that is great but not cheap, that is this here:

http://www.digi-dat.de/produkte/index_eng.html

And I know all the issues about calibration and adjustement - that is why I love camcorders like the TD10 and the Z10000. What are fine, beside one point: you cannot change the IO. Well, I think about it....
post #165 of 580
I don't had to give up zoom with 2 camcorder setup without LANC.
How about IR remote? http://youtu.be/GMkqdhRGkmI?hd=1&t=46s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

you cannot change the IO. Well, I think about it....

You can use the Cyclopital SBE for 14cm base.
post #166 of 580
cyclopital is an excellent idea and Joe Clark has vetted it here for the JVC. But it is again fixed IA.
I could only get IR remote to sync properly, consistently, when the cams were close together. The zoom was flaky and went out of sync when the TD10's were farther than 12" apart. Plus IR was unreliable. But if prepared to do many takes, I may get one that worked. Spent a fair amount of time with this when I thought I wasn't going to get a sync device.

Wolfgang- Thanks for that resource. Looks like an excellent device and good company. I like what I see there. They seem to know the Av/R Sony connection well for Lanc and I see it has 8 speed Zoom. You will like that. Lanc Shepherd only has one speed.
post #167 of 580
yes, zoom via lanc for TD10's
post #168 of 580
The Sony Lanc remote accessory also has a zoom that is 2 speed and works quite well for smooth start and stop.
post #169 of 580
The dgidat lanc controller for the Sony looks to be 466 Euro and that by my math should be about $614. US. That's a bit more expensive than the Lanc Shepherd but IMO, the DigiDat offers much more.

Also, I see they offer a version that has 2 video cable outputs. I wonder if they tested this on a camcorder because Sony disables the A/V output when accessing the Lanc pins on that AV/R jack. Maybe they figured out a work around.
post #170 of 580
Thread Starter 
Don, for questions you can contact Werner Broos, who runs this shop. I send you his email via PN.
post #171 of 580
Thanks, I fired off a bunch of questions.
post #172 of 580
I've been looking around Vimeo etc. for some nice looking sample video from this camera. I downloaded one of the mts files posted here (2D) but mpeg streamclip couldn't convert it for viewing on my Mac. Puzzling why Panasonic wouldn't put some samples out there so folks can see what it's capable of, but at any rate, does anyone have some footage that they've output as anaglyph to share? What little I've been able to find looks like stuff shot in the back yard the day it was unboxed and before setting the camera up so kind of saturated and contrasty.

Also, I think someone made a reference to 4:2:2 color space but I can't find anything to support that anywhere.
post #173 of 580
Hi All,

I live in the UK, and have just received my HDC-Z10000. I previously had (well still have actually) an HDC-SDT750 with the 3D lens attachment.

I'm still getting used to filming in 3D where I actually have some element of control. My HDC-SDT750 had no convergence adjustment so that's something I'm experiementing with. Just love this new camcorder

Anyway, my questions to anyone who can advise me...

1) What's the best way to create a BD3D, either direct to disc, or just the folder structure, from Z10000 footage (recorded in any 3D mode).

With my old HDC-SDT750 side-by-side 3D footage, I could import this into Sony Vegas Studio 10e 64-bit, and could use the "Tools|Burn to disc" feature to create BD3D's of my home videos.

I've pulled in some Z10000 footage recorded in both 1080i50 and 1080p25, but each time when I try and burn to disc I get an error dialog that just says "An error has occured during the current operation. An unexpected error has occured."

This error appears immediately as soon as I press the OK button on the Burn Blu-ray Disc screen.

Any ideas?

2) What's the best 3D more to record in, considering that ultimately I want to convert all my footage to 3DBD.

I've recorded footage in 1080p25, and movement in the resultant video is very stuttery when played back on my Viera 3DTV via the camcorder HDMI connection. Of course I expect the frame rate and motion resolution to be less than 1080i50, but not to the degree of stuttery movement I see when I pan. My Viera 3DTV doesn't show that kind of stuttery movement on BD3D's.

Regards,

Glenn
post #174 of 580
Quote:


This error appears immediately as soon as I press the OK button on the Burn Blu-ray Disc screen.

Any ideas?

Upgrade to version 11
post #175 of 580
Thread Starter 
For the Z10000, the best method to record is 1080 24p.

Why? First of all, that is specified for 3D BD-R - if you acquire in 1080 50i or 1080 25p, you allways will have to convert the footage either to 720 50p or (with some effort) to 1080 24p. So1080 24p is specified for 3D BD. Second, you have the advantage that you use a progressive format, what has the advantage that you do not loose resolution due to interline flicker. Third, even with the Z10000 and 1080 24p movements look fine so far - so no issue here.

To create 3D BD, use the function to burn blu rays from the timeline, and use the template 1080 24p from the Sony AVC/MVC encoder.

And yes, you MUST upgrade to Vegas Pro 11 in the latest build - in the older Vegas Pro 10 the MVC-decoder is not able to handle 1080 24p really, also not in the first Vegas Pro 11 builds.
post #176 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Upgrade to version 11

So simple Cool, I should've thought that the error was something they'd corrected in Vegas Pro 11.

I just downloaded the trial, and it works fine for 3D footage shot in 1080i50 output as BD3D 1080p24.

I'm now testing 1080p25 footage, again output as a BD3D 1080p24.

I'm trying to figure out which 3D format is best to record in considering that I want to burn all recordings to BD3D. I'm inclined to record everything in 1080p24, as that's a native BD3D format, but hate losing frame rate. I think I prefer smooth motion to the "film like" feel, so that leads me to record in 1080i50, and output to BD3D as 720p50?

Choices, choices.

P.S. I still don't get how motion recorded at 1080p25 on my Z10000 looks so bad. Pre-recorded 1080p24 3DBD's don't have motion problems when panning (not like I'm seeing on 1080p25 material anyway).

Maybe it's my Viera performing some additonal processing when de-interlacing the 1080p25 video encoded into a 1080i50 signal?

Cheers

Glenn
post #177 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

For the Z10000, the best method to record is 1080 24p.

Why? First of all, that is specified for 3D BD-R - if you acquire in 1080 50i or 1080 25p, you allways will have to convert the footage either to 720 50p or (with some effort) to 1080 24p. So1080 24p is specified for 3D BD. Second, you have the advantage that you use a progressive format, what has the advantage that you do not loose resolution due to interline flicker. Third, even with the Z10000 and 1080 24p movements look fine so far - so no issue here.

And yes, you MUST upgrade to Vegas Pro 11 in the latest build - in the older Vegas Pro 10 the MVC-decoder is not able to handle 1080 24p really, also not in the first Vegas Pro 11 builds.

Hi Wolfgang,

Thanks for your advice. I've downloaded Vegas Pro 11, and have managed to produce some test BD3D discs. I have Z10000 footage at 1080i50, 1080p25, and 1080p24.

The 1080i50 and 1080p25 footage I have burned to BD3D in both 1080p24 and 720p50 formats using the Vegas Pro timeline burn function. The 720p burn doesn't look good for me. Whilst the 1080p24 burns look ok, but motion isn't perfect due to the pull down process.

Burning the 1080p24 footage to native 1080p24 BD3D of course looks spectacular, and doesn't suffer any motion artifacts. As to be expected at I was filming at native BD3D resolution / frame rate etc. Standard European TV is 25fps (1080i50 at source for video and 1080p25 for film), so a 1 fps drop really isn't that noticeable at all.

I still don't understand why the motion in my 1080p25 footage looks bad when I pan. It has to be the processing within my Panasonic Viera TV? 1080p24 looks fine.

Thanks for the advice,

Glenn

The 1080p24 burn
post #178 of 580
"1 fps drop really isn't that noticeable at all."
Yes, it is noticable at every second.
You can eliminate when you slowdown the clip about 4%.
Now that's not noticable for many people!

I agree with you that 720p mode doesn't look that good either.
post #179 of 580
Thread Starter 
720 50p is a compromisse, deriving from the fact that 1080 50i (from the camcorders like the TD10) can be burned to 3D BD as 720 50p. It suffers from the fact that you have to deinterlace the footage and have to resize it.

If you use the Z10000, you have a better choice then 1080 50i - and that is 1080 24p. But you should shoot at 1080 24p, but not only convert 1080 50i or 1080 25p to 1080 24p.

1080 24p looks worser then 1080 24p - also in terms of motion. Maybe that is a firmware issue....
post #180 of 580
I think we all would like to have 1080 60p ( except those who remain in the "film look" camp) but now that I have been shooting quite a bit in pure 1080 24p with my twin cam 3D rig I find the results quite smooth except for very fast action scenes. Moderately fast action is quite acceptable.

What is not acceptable are slow to moderate motion scenes with the conversions using some of the older software. Converting my 1080 60i 3D to 1080 24p using Vegas v11 is perfectly acceptable to me on my 240 Hz projector but when viewed on my 60 Hz Vizio, I'm back to being unhappy with the motion. Motion of a person walking by shows as a slight stutter, but only on the 60Hz monitor. It is quite acceptable on the 240 Hz screen.

IMO, you can get away with conversions as long as you use the best of breed software and watch on a 240 Hz monitor.

Some have claimed that 120 Hz is fine too. I wouldn't know. What is clear to me is that the final result is clearly based on the strength of the chain. Have any weak link and the motion quality will suffer. Today's technology, 1080 24p x 1920 with monitor of 240 Hz. is about as good as you can get. Shooting in 24p will avoid conversions and establish a pure path to state of the art. Next year, we can revisit as 4K monitors and maybe 1080 60p cameras will be affordable.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: 3D Source Components
AVS › AVS Forum › 3D Central › 3D Source Components › Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder