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Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder - Page 7

post #181 of 556
Thread Starter 
In the PAL area I would like to have 1080 50p - but both 1080 50p and 60p are not possible given limitations in the bandwidth of even hdmi 1.4. So 1080 24p is maybe the best what is possible at the moment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Converting my 1080 60i 3D to 1080 24p using Vegas v11 is perfectly acceptable to me on my 240 Hz projector

I still do not think that it delivers fine results for 1080 50i.
post #182 of 556
Hello,
I am a new member and have a Z10000 from the beginning of januari.
I am following this forum and the videoaktiv forum of Wolfgang.
But you never mention the software that is included in the packaged of the Z10000.
Is there a reason for?
gr.
Marcel
post #183 of 556
Thread Starter 
Hi Marcel,

well, I run the German forum Videotreffpunkt what has a strong focus on 3D in the German area, even if it is true that I post in the Videoaktiv forum too (and write from time to time for the Videoaktiv magazine).

With the Z10000 is bundled with the HD Writer only - what is a small tiny software but not realy a non-linear editing tool, like Vegas or Edius or even the PD10 is. Frankly spoken, since I use Vegas Pro 11 most of the time, and since there are not many editors that are able to handle 3D 1080 24p footage from the Z10000 really, including to create 3D BDs, the HD Writer is not really what I am looking for.

To my opinion, the minimum what you should go for 3D editing are tools like the PD10, better Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum 11, more expensive Vegas Pro 11 or the upcoming Edius 6.5 (even if we do not know yet if in Edius you will find an MVC-encoder to create 3D BDs). Maybe also the new Magix Pro X4 - but to my opinion both Vegas Pro but also Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum are fine and superior to what the HD Writer can offer you.
post #184 of 556
Edius can export to m2ts (Sony and Panasonic) and mp4 (JVC) MVC files (and thus has an MVC encoder), but I have yet to get really good results using it. My workflow is to edit in Edius (because it accepts my JVC mp4 files natively), export left and right files at 24p in high bitrate MPEG2 (because I like how Edius de-interlaces my 60i footage, and it's MPEG2 encoding looks great and is very fast), then burn to Blu-ray 3D in Vegas. If I want the highest quality, this beats PowerDirector 10's low bitrate MVC encoding. You don't get menus this way, but the video quality is much better. If Edius' MVC encoding improves (a big if), my workflow might change. One of the Grass Valley moderators got a bit snippy when someone in the Edius 3D thread complained about the MVC encoder - saying it wasn't a $40,000 piece of software.
post #185 of 556
Thread Starter 
I read for the first time that Edius has an MVC-Encoder. But if the quality is so weak, it is something that makes no sense to me. And I do not like to use mpeg2 as intermediate to transfer it to Vegas -here to use the Canopus HQ would be better maybe.
post #186 of 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

I read for the first time that Edius has an MVC-Encoder. But if the quality is so weak, it is something that makes no sense to me. And I do not like to use mpeg2 as intermediate to transfer it to Vegas -here to use the Canopus HQ would be better maybe.

I'm sure you're right, Wolfgang. I need to experiment a lot more with the export options. Of course, I want to eliminate as many transcoding steps as possible, but one of the Canopus intermediates would likely give better results. I've tried to export videos as m2ts and mp4 files, because I hoped they would eliminate unnecessary recompression in Vegas. Edius allows high bit rates while doing this, but I've always gotten very unpleasant artifacts. I've never been able to get clean video. MPEG2 at 40mbps, however, has provided excellent results. I'll try the Canopus codecs.
post #187 of 556
Wolfgang, thank you for the reaction.
I am not experienced in the editor software. Up till now I used always the software that was delivered with the cam.
I have dowloaded now a trial version of Vegas pro 11, and I must say that it is certainly different than HD Writer. But the price is also different.
When I film, sometime I see dubbel lines (shades) when I play it on the screen. I use then the parallax of the Z10000 to make some corrections. But it is never complete gone. It is still a little bit visibel. Is it possible to correct it with Vegas Pro11?
Next week I go to the "Brocken" in the north of Germany, to film the small steamlocomotives (dampflocs) in 3D, and in 50i and 24P.
Ok, thanks for the info.
post #188 of 556
Thread Starter 
For Vegas, you could also start using the cheaper version Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum 11 - what is not so bad anymore, after some changes that SCS did. It is much cheaper. If you wish to edit Z10000 footage, maybe you have to change one file (the mvc decoder in VMS may still not be able to decode MVC files from the Z10000, but that is a simple exercise, if you can read German you find here a description:

http://www.videotreffpunkt.com/threa...threadid=13789 )

For the ghost pictures - that is something from the monitor or HDTV you use very likely, it derives from a not perfect separation of the two pictures in your video from the active shutter glasses. You could try to minimise the parallaxis during shooting or in the postpro, but that is something will also influence the 3D perception and will not work always.
post #189 of 556
Last year I occasionally noticed ghosting of my JVC 3D camcorder video on my Panasonic Plasma TV, but not from my 3D Bluray movies. Wolfgang is right about it not being the camera's fault. It's Left and Right images are created separately.

I suspect the problem lies with contrast. The professionals probably ensure their 3D scenes don't contain too much contrast where there is significant L/R separation. In other words, large contrast between a foreground object and the background will bleed over into the other eye due to less than perfect glasses.

Of course, controlling contrast is a lot easier to do in a studio than in the 'real world'.
post #190 of 556
Had a scary moment with the Z10000 last night. I was trying out the time lapse feature by setting a 30-second interval. It recorded fine for about an hour, then the camera shut off. I was plugged into a power outlet, so I knew the battery wasn't dead. But the camera wouldn't turn on. I put the battery back in and powered it up to a "Critical Error has occured. Please plug into AC outlet or charge the battery" message. I tried plugging in, but the camera again wouldn't power up.

I charged the battery overnight and tried again this morning. This time the message was "Card contains corrupted data, please wait." The card repaired quickly and it does not appear that any data was lost. But the camera was unusable after crashing last night and I was not able to finish my project. Even worse, I'm now worried I can't trust the equipment.

Forgot to try plugging into AC this morning. I'll have to give it a try when I get home.
post #191 of 556
You want 2 Sony NEX-5Ns.

That would be under $2k and shoot 1080p60

The NEX-7 could do it to, but that would be a bit more.

The second question would be, would anything edit 1080p60fps stereo though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I think we all would like to have 1080 60p ( except those who remain in the "film look" camp) but now that I have been shooting quite a bit in pure 1080 24p with my twin cam 3D rig I find the results quite smooth except for very fast action scenes. Moderately fast action is quite acceptable.

What is not acceptable are slow to moderate motion scenes with the conversions using some of the older software. Converting my 1080 60i 3D to 1080 24p using Vegas v11 is perfectly acceptable to me on my 240 Hz projector but when viewed on my 60 Hz Vizio, I'm back to being unhappy with the motion. Motion of a person walking by shows as a slight stutter, but only on the 60Hz monitor. It is quite acceptable on the 240 Hz screen.

IMO, you can get away with conversions as long as you use the best of breed software and watch on a 240 Hz monitor.

Some have claimed that 120 Hz is fine too. I wouldn't know. What is clear to me is that the final result is clearly based on the strength of the chain. Have any weak link and the motion quality will suffer. Today's technology, 1080 24p x 1920 with monitor of 240 Hz. is about as good as you can get. Shooting in 24p will avoid conversions and establish a pure path to state of the art. Next year, we can revisit as 4K monitors and maybe 1080 60p cameras will be affordable.
post #192 of 556
Wolfgang-
When you shoot with your Z10000 in 24 fps mode, what fps setting do you use for your project properties and render settings in Vegas?
post #193 of 556
Thread Starter 
Panasonic itself recommends in the manual for 24p a shutter speed of 1/60 second if you are in a power network with 60 Hz like in the states - and 1/100 shutter speed in a power network with 50 Hz like Europe. That is indoor or in the night with electrical light important.

Outside you may go down with the shutter speed even more, since the Z10000 does not have manual ND filters, you have to reduce shutter speed especially for situations with very bright light.

The classical setting for shooting in 24p is to use 1/24 second, what can be used inside rooms if you have a lowlight situation. Movement is still acceptable according to my subjective assessment with such a setting, even if it is quite clear that with 50i/60i movement is smoother. I think it depends from your video - if there is a lot of movement inside or if it is more static.

But with 50i/60i we still are back to the conversion issue for Blu Ray. I have tested yesterday my XLR-Rode NTG-2, and are really satisfied with both the audio part and the video part if shooting with 1080 24p.


For project settings I use 1920x1080, none (progressive scan), 23,976 (ITV film), 8-bit and deinterlace methode none (can be also blend fields but is not used for progressive footage). For 3d it is not so important - can be anaglyphic in the project settings. For the render settings for 3D it is similar if you shoot with 1080 24p.
post #194 of 556
If you are shooting at 24.000 FPS why would you set the frame rate to 23.976 in the project settings? Some older camcorders I recall did not shoot in native 2 FPS but offered that output which was really a conversion on the output. I use "24 Film" as the camcorder is outputting that ion 2D mode setting. However, when I shoot in 60i ( 3D mode) I set the project settings to 29.97 and then when I want to convert to film rate of 24fps, I actually set the render to 23.976.

I wasn't really asking about shutter speed, just Vegas settings for the 24 fps setting in your Z10000.
post #195 of 556
Thread Starter 
The general rule in Vegas is, that you adjust the project settings to the footage you use - to get the best preview capabilities. Since the Z4K shoots in 23,976 fps if you use 1080 24p, I set the project settings to that. If you use the function match video settings, you will also end up with 23.976.

However, setting the fps in the project settings to 24,000 fps works, it shows no significant drop down in the preview capabilities - at least on my PC.

For editing 50i footage, I also use 25 fps, and for 60i the settings 29,970 (NTSC) are right.

When you render to 1080 24p for 3D BD, you will take 23,976 - since that is the format defined for 3D BD.
post #196 of 556
wolfgang- OK, I have a better handle on it now. I did some review in SMPTE and the Avid media composer forums and discovered most of the big boys who are editing our movies don't even have a good handle on this and the confusion is that there is always 24 frames in a second, but it has to be adjusted to a rate of 23.976 in order to sync with audio at 49Khz of some multiple so that at the end of a long production like an hour or more, the sound will remain in sync with the video ( film rate converted to color video rate) There are two sources for the confusion. 1. That when the BluRay Assoc. standardized the rate of 23.976, they did not do it with drop frame while when FCC set the standard for 60i to 59.94 i for B&W to color they created a drop frame count so that 30 seconds on time code matched 30 seconds on the real clock. 2. That the specs for many cameras will state 1080 24p when they should be stating 1080 23.976p but it is often abbreviated for print. Then readers mis interpret the frame rate to mean the electronics is designed for original film rate on 24.000 FPS.

Now you'd think I would know this stuff as I am licensed FCC 1st phone, and degreed Broadcast engineer, and felt intellectually inferior because I didn't get it. But, after I began reading the posts from other engineers and professional editors, I realized most of the industry is confused over this.

The simple rule of mind set is whenever a VIDEO camera states 24 fps, it is really 23.976 and not 24.000. Second, there is no drop frame in the spec. for blu Ray "24p"

As an editor, the only time to use 24.000 frame rate cadence in Vegas timeline is if the finished product will be output to film for display. In other words, if celluloid film never enters the chain of events from camera to TV screen- always use 23.976 fps everywhere, but in many cases the 23.976 will be stated as 24.

On short productions the lip sync will not be a problem if it is done wrong but on long movies it can throw the movie out of audio sync by quite a bit.
post #197 of 556
Thread Starter 
Yes, I am aware that the Z10000 and the other 3D camcorders who are able to shoot in "1080 24p" shoot in reality with 23.976. Vegas is a wonderfull tool here - you can check in detail what a file has really, and you can analyse also in detail what a render dialog has.

But it is important to get the render settings and the project settings right - for the preview, but maybe more important for how the footage is interpretated in the timeline (you know, to avoid the calculation of new frames what is a significant issue always - if it taktes place).
post #198 of 556
I have benefited enormously from this thread, and decided to get the z10000. I could not resist the ability to control the picture manually in 3D, including dynamic range, and I really care about resolution. And having dedicated buttons makes taking videos in run and gun situations easier than searching through menus with touch screens (such as WB changes). It's a great 2D camcorder too.

Like Don, I was put off by the size, so I will have to see how that goes. I have been able I think to take videos in many places because the cameras I use do not look professional. I do not need to impress wedding clients; I would prefer small, light and innocent. This camera is none of those.

My question is: I am going to shoot a St. Patrick's Day parade in 3D. I have street access (here is the video I shot last year (2D):
http://vimeo.com/21015825). Shouldn't I shoot at 108060i, and not 24P? Motion at a parade is important, obviously, and I need to capture that well. As far as I can tell, I can make AVCD 3D version-2.0 bluray videos that will play on certain models of Sony and Panasonic bluray players using 108060i. So, I do not need shoot at or conver to 24P for my distribution needs.
post #199 of 556
Mark- I think you will be happy with the quality of the Panasonic. You will have to get used to the lower resolution of the screen and, of course the controls. But, here's my suggestion to shoot in crowds of parades:

I used this system at Disney to shoot the Magic Electrical Parade on my You Tube channel
LL
LL
post #200 of 556
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

My question is: I am going to shoot a St. Patrick's Day parade in 3D. I have street access (here is the video I shot last year (2D):
http://vimeo.com/21015825). Shouldn't I shoot at 108060i, and not 24P? Motion at a parade is important, obviously, and I need to capture that well. As far as I can tell, I can make AVCD 3D version-2.0 bluray videos that will play on certain models of Sony and Panasonic bluray players using 108060i. So, I do not need shoot at or conver to 24P for my distribution needs.

Since you will not have to convert the footage, the decision can depend on the quality that the z10000 delivers in both modes. For 50i/60i, you see significant smoother movements. With 1080 24p, the firmware of the z10000 brings in a much higher level of motion blur - what is great since the movement is smooth too, but the edges of moved objects will be blured more. What do you like more?

If you have a significant amount of very slow movement or static pictures, 1080 24p will show a superior quality due to the better quality of progressive picture.

I would tend to use 1080 24p, but that will be a matter of taste.
post #201 of 556
Just like Sony for their camcorders, Panasonic provides software with the Z10000 that is really useful. In particular, you can trim, partially delete, re-order and merge 3D clips (editing) and then make an AVCHD 2.0 bluray 3D video that will play on any AVCHD 2.0-compatible player. And there is NO conversion. So, for example, 108060i MVC goes to 108060i MVC. Because there is no conversion, everything takes place really fast.

You can also add a music track (using your own music). What you cannot do is add transitions or titles or menus - just pure video+ the sound track. This means the resulting bluray disc will be higher quality than anything Sony Vegas can output because there is no re-rendering. Quality is as good as attaching the camera directly through HDMI.

And, yes, the merged, trimmed video file from the Z10000 clips can be placed right on the timeline in Vegas Pro, which recognizes it as MVC 3D 60i and you can use that software to work the Vegas Pro magic to, say, make a 1/2-frame sbs video for uploading to Youtube.
post #202 of 556
Just got my Z10000, and wanted to test the unique macro mode, which allows close-ups in 3D without making you cross-eyed. I also wanted to see the camcorder's low-light performance, and test the workflow.

So, two clips, merged in HD Writer XE 1.0 then placed in Vegas Pro to make a 1/2 frame sbs uploaded to Youtube. The original is 108060i mvc 3D.

Seems ok. Here is the video:



Please double-click to go to Youtube, where you can select your favorite 3D viewing mode and 108060p.

My next videos, I promise, will be a lot more interesting and well lit!
post #203 of 556
Benchmarks: Sony TD10 and Panasonic TM900

I took the camera out on a first expedition to get used to it and practice for the big parade this week-end. These are my first impressions. I shot at 108060i 3D, as that is what I will use for the parade, which will have plenty of motion (that is the point of a parade).

The good:

Just great to have buttons for controls (that you in part select), so one does not have to go into menus on the lcd for quick changes of settings.

Also, great: a separate ring for exposure. I do not trust automatic exposure and am constantly adjusting exposure to get the right look, and need anyway to lock down the shutter. But see below.

The color is fantastic (accurate), the dynamic range seems better than the TD10, and the range for 3D seems better also.

The viewfinder is sharp and clear and enables one to judge well WB, focus and exposure. Makes using the camera in bright light a delight. In bright light I did not use the LCD at all, except to review shots in 3D.

The guide for minimum and maximum window for effective 3D is very useful.

The not so good, but not really bad:

Someone asked me within two minutes of taking out the camera if I worked for a newspaper. I never get that question with the TD10. Don't need that.

The camera with big battery weighs a lot. I cannot hold it with one hand like the TD10 and just walk around with it in one hand. I added a shoulder strap, but my arm is sore from holding up the camera while walking around and shooting (the latter with two hands). I originally though the handle was a waste and made the camera too big, but it is almost necessary. It is also useful for low-perspective shots, which are very effective, especially in 3D. And the big battery really lasts - 2.5 hours of video are possible, which seemsconsistent with my little expereince with it and the rundown so far.

One really needs ND filters. This is the big one: first shot on a bright day had zebras (90%) showing on the main subject. I closed the iris all the way down (to f11, the minimum), and the zebras were still there! I would have had to change the shutter speed (from 1/60th). This is a major issue: does anyone have a relatively cheap solution for adding an ND filter?

The OIS is not sufficient to give a steady shot handheld at full telephoto. This was not true with the TD10 or TM900. I though the heavier camera might result in less shake, but there is more. On the other hand the 10X telephoto 3D is quite nice; no cardboard effects yet.

The quality of the videos in standard scene mode are good. I hope to try modes that max the dynamic range.

Here is the outdoors test video, created as 1/2-frame sbs in Vegas Pro. You can see the good and the not so good in the video. There are a few deliberate pop-out shots, some telephoto shots and medium shots for depth assessment. Also some really diffcult 3D shots with very near and far objects.




Again, double click to select the 3D mode of your choice and 1080p.
post #204 of 556
Panasonic has a brochure touting the capabilities of the Z10000,and also provides useful tips about 3D shooting (nice!). In the brochure, they report on a professional shoot using two Z10000's (http://www.panasonic-broadcast.eu/cm...CZ10000ski.pdf).

Here is what they say:

"In order to cope with the extreme lighting conditions on the mountain, only an ND filter (ND9) was fitted in front of the lens on the B-camera, and the display was protected against direct light using a home-made shield."

We need to find out more about this "home-made" remedy.

Here is the picture:
LL
post #205 of 556
Nice samples, Mark. The Panasonic document was interesting to read.

I've been expecting an after market neutral density filter solution. I think the Z10000 is going to get a lot of third party support. Ewa Marine is coming out with a Z10000 compatible under water bag this month. I can't wait to get back to Hawaii!!
post #206 of 556
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

One really needs ND filters. This is the big one: first shot on a bright day had zebras (90%) showing on the main subject. I closed the iris all the way down (to f11, the minimum), and the zebras were still there! I would have had to change the shutter speed (from 1/60th). This is a major issue: does anyone have a relatively cheap solution for adding an ND filter?


To reduce the shutter speed is the only way how that can be done without a ND. To avoid that the luminance goes out of range that should be done. But I agree, it would be nice to have external NDs - even if that makes the camcorder heavier and looking more professional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The OIS is not sufficient to give a steady shot handheld at full telephoto. This was not true with the TD10 or TM900.

The TD10 used both an optical and an electronical stabilizer for 3D, whilte for 3D with the Z10000 only the opitcal stabilizer is available. That is a weakness, if you are prepared to accept that the TD10 will crop into the picture (what the Z10000 is not doing).
post #207 of 556
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Panasonic has a brochure touting the capabilities of the Z10000,and also provides useful tips about 3D shooting (nice!). In the brochure, they report on a professional shoot using two Z10000's (http://www.panasonic-broadcast.eu/cm...CZ10000ski.pdf).

Here is what they say:

"In order to cope with the extreme lighting conditions on the mountain, only an ND filter (ND9) was fitted in front of the lens on the B-camera, and the display was protected against direct light using a home-made shield."

We need to find out more about this "home-made" remedy.

Here is the picture:


These pictures have been shoot on the Stubaier Gletscher:

http://de-de.facebook.com/media/set/...6831147&type=3

They use a Chrosziel MB 456 Academy maybe.
post #208 of 556
Mark- As you begin to soot more and more like a Pro you will become accustomed to using filters. I began using filters for all my outdoor shooting with the TD10 about a month after owning my first one. Real Pro camcorders and broadcast camcorders have two ND filters built in that you can select on a wheel bear the base of the lens. They reduce f-stop by .5, 1, and combo or 1.5 stops.
I carry in my kit two each, of ND1's, circ. polarizer, a half ND with gradient, and a warming filter. Why two each? Because I shoot, sometimes with two TD10's. With the TD10 the disadvantage of stacking filters is you begin to vignette the corners, particularly on the left side at full wide angle so if I use a single filter I'm OK but two or more I have to zoom in a little of cut the corners off a little with a dark shadow. I usually pull off all filters when shooting indoors. When I shot my Valley of Fire, I used a UV and gradient ND plus warming filter for most of the shots. This deepened the blue sky and have the red sandstone a richer afternoon sun set look even when shooting at high noon.



I also have a large lens shade I can screw on the filter ring I mounted on my TD10. In shooting 3D it is most important to avoid lens flares, while with 2D a lens flare is often done for artistic reasons. The problem with a lens flare in 3D is the two lenses are in different locations and a lens flare is created on the glass elements from light hitting at an angle, This angle is different on each camera and will produce a different flare to left and right, those cannot converge into a single 3D flare, so avoid them by using a lens hood.

I used a UV filter with the glass removed to make a 1:1 step ring for my threaded mount and glued it in place using "Krazy Glue" Then added a small piece of black thin plastic cut to fit on the top back side to prevent light from hitting the top of the filters from behind. I left the bottom open for sound. All filters are 77mm. I see the shooter in your example uses a square ND filter which is a simple approach. I'm not sure how he has it fixed in place on the Panasonic camera. I have ideas but don't need to get into that now.
post #209 of 556
Thanks for all your comments. This is a real learning expereince. In 2D I always use ND filters.

Don, I have located a 4x6 resin ND filter (.6) that fits over the front just like in the brochure picture. So I would be really interested in any ideas on how to affix in a way that could be easily removed.
post #210 of 556
Go to an auto parts store, like AutoZone and get some glue for rear view mirrors. Then glue some sort of bracket you fabricate to the OD/shape of the lens shade. This could just slip on over the existing lens shade. You glue the bracket to the filter glass. Use plain glass square for a practice piece before final design on the expensive filter.

That's the simplest idea off the top of my head but usually these things are an evolution. Try something and then improve or try something different. Having the camcorder in hand helps, which I don't have. Does the front piece easily come off?
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