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Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder - Page 15

post #421 of 579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

It finally stopped raining long enough before sundown to get out and do a test shoot. I was most eager to try the 3D Macro mode so I shot the video below. The Macro mode was easy to do and I was able to get as close as 6" with full wide and 15 inches with 90% full zoom which enabled really close shots. 18" permitted full zoom. At thios point it was kind of a toss up as to where I set the zoom and camera distance. The decision was mostly about depth of focus. The OIS, I don't believe is as good as the Sony TD10. The clarity of the popout on the flower was quite good in the Panasonic monitor. The image was about 2" in front of the screen surface. Obviously this is quite extreme but extremes is what testing is all about. For actual shooting I would want to compress any shot like this to prevent vision fatigue. If the weather cooperates tomorrow, I want to get out with the tripod and get some stock footage of these Macro shots.

I've yet to try any macro shots with the Z10k. With my JVC, it's always about finding the right balance between zoom and shooting distance. Unfortunately, the JVC doesn''t focus close enough on its own to get the really dramatic macro shots I want. Zooming in for closeups does provide usable footage, but it always pales when compared to shots taken with a macro lens. It always looks flatter. But the greater the magnification of the macro lens, the shallower the usable depth. I can't use some of the shots I love because the background objects are too widely separated. Even with a +3 macro lens, objects more than a few inches away from the main area of attention and focus usually won't converge comfortably. And that's even when pulled out and zoomed in. The 3D screens on our cameras can also be deceptive. They're so small that our eyes usually don't have any trouble converging objects that lie way outside the comfort zone on bigger screens. There are a couple of things you can do to help. One is to shoot from a higher vantage point, so that the ground is the furthest object in the background (then back up and zoom in), or make sure the background is neutral (like a cloudless sky), or neutral and out of focus. I have a set of Vivitar CU filters for the Panasonic that I'm anxious to try out.
post #422 of 579
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

One of the things I'm looking forward to most is being able to use it with my Steadicam/Blackbird rig and the Cyclopital wide angle adapter

Well, I test a zolinger steadicam neo http://zolinger.com/zoe-compact-series-stabilizer at the moment - but I am not satisfied with the mechanic really, what makes it hard to balance.
post #423 of 579
Wolfgang-
The trick to balancing any of these gimble based steadicams is to use a stand that holds the camera and gimble assembly as it would be held either by your hand or by the arm/vest system. Some of these systems have better adjusting weights and base plates that are on a slide table to aid in making the center of gravity adjustment. But regardless of that, none of them are easy until you use the stand and mount so you can set up the calibration independent of holding the system. Once this is achieved, you pick up the system and camcorder and it remains properly balanced. Now all you need to do is develop the skill with the gentle touch to aim the lens on your subject while you walk or run around.

I spent hours trying to get mine adjusted and it never was right. So I asked a rep at the Tiffen booth at NAB what the secret was and he said you have to calibrate it on a stand otherwise you will die of old age before you'll get it right. He was correct. On the stand it took me a couple minutes.

For mine, I made a very simple bracket that I mount on my tripod. It's an aluminum angle stock and a piece of aluminum pipe that the steadicam handle sits in. As you can see this allows me to test balance and level even when the handle is sitting in the tube at an angle.


Edited by Don Landis - 3/13/13 at 8:11am
post #424 of 579
Thread Starter 
Don, I use a stand to balance the rig both in a static but also in a dynamic equilibrium. The limitation of the rig are the mechanical properties, that make the adjustment more tricky that it would be necessary to be.
post #425 of 579
It looks like a fine piece of machinery but if your experience is not good then... I'll see if they are at NAB and get a closer look.

Still making custom settings on the Z10k.
post #426 of 579
Thread Starter 
I assume thaty will not be at NAB. Sure, it looks like a fine tool, and I have to continue testing to come up with a final conclusion really.

What I have done was to add a Novoflex part:

http://www.amazon.com/Novoflex-CASTEL-Q-CASTEL-Q-Einstellschlitten/dp/B000KZDYO4/ref=pd_cp_ph_0

that allows a much better adjustment sinc that is really a great meachanical part.
post #427 of 579
I'm not sure I understand why that would be needed since it looks like the one that comes with the zolinger is exactly the same. It is quite an expensive addition.

One thing I did see with the Z10k is that the tripod mounting hole is quite far back and puts the lens side very much off balance. I think I will need an extension plate to move the 1/4-20 threaded hole forward to the center of gravity on the Z10K. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. It needs just about an inch forward of the larger threaded hole to balance perfectly.
post #428 of 579
Thread Starter 
I think it can be done without that additional slide, true. But since the mechanical precission is rough really in the original Zolinger head, I have invested in this additional part - the adjustment is much easier.

Yes, the mounting hole is terrible far back - I see that also when I balance the steadicam. At least I do not need here an additional plate, that is possible with the Zolinger equipment. What I do not like is that you have to balance the Z10K with the open display - to be able to use the display. And to balance the Z10K it is much easier to fix an external XLR microfone at the center of the camera, but not in the slot where it would be foreseen by Panasonic.
post #429 of 579
My Blackbird stabilizer has a plate that moves forward and backward. It allows me to balance the Z10k easily - a good thing, since it's very front heavy, especially with the adapters on it.
post #430 of 579
As these small camcorders get lighter, the position of an accessory like the LCD monitor can really influence the balance. On the TD10 even the angle of the LCD can change it's forward balance. But getting the sideways level is pretty easy with my steadicam device with a side adjustment screw.

I have not tried the Z10K with my device yet. I'm certain that I will make a small extension for the Z10K to center the balance more. Then I'll need to see if the current counter weight on the bottom is heavy enough. I use all the weights that came with it for the TD10 but the arc is nearly straight and at it's lowest point. Likely, the Z10K will be really top heavy to work. I rarely use the device so it's not a big concern and I really can't justify the money for a bigger system now. More important to me is the remote control and I look forward to checking out my own design soon.

I'm really impressed with the depth of the adjustments I can do with this camcorder. Finished customizing my user buttons today and started to do some bench color settings for the scene buttons. The ones that come from the factory preset are really quite good though.

One setting I'm a little confused with is the FA or focus assist. I'm not getting any response on it so I eliminated it for now and moved the "Push auto focus" to the first user button. I used to use that often and missed it with the TD10. It had that touch screen to focus on a spot and that worked well too.
post #431 of 579
Thread Starter 
I have 3D, convg reset and push af on the three user buttoms - that works nice for me.

The FA adds a red color to the edges that are with the sharp range - but sometimes that is hard to see. However, it is a usefull function too.

And the scene files are nice tools to adjus the camera - that is a feature that goes far beyond what cameras like the TD1 or TD10. But that takes some time to learn the meaning of the different settings, and how the combinations work out. A nice source is that side http://www.filmrocks.com/film_resources.html
especially the file "Looks from Panasonic and Barry Green's book".


The Zolinger has one huge advantage - it designed for use with cameras weighing up to 5,5kg what is nice for the Z10K, where we are somewhere about 3kg all together. That was one reason why I decided to purchase the Zolinger. Overall I am still testing - I played a little bit and balanced it, and now I play with the west to adjust it to my body size. Takes some time to learn that.
post #432 of 579
Thanks for that explanation on FA. I don't see it as that useful so I'm happy to ditch it from the three hard user buttons. Is there a setting like in the TD10 where you touch a spot on the screen and that goes into focus? I got used to that nice feature in the TD10. I can live without it but it was a nice feature the TD10 had.

Also, I was looking for a way to have the eye view finder on simultaneously as the LCD screen. Is that possible?
post #433 of 579
Thread Starter 
I think there is no feature like we have it in the TD10, to adjust the focus by touching the screen. But the FA is not as bad as you see it now - even if I agree that it could come out better.

I have seen some situations where the push AF did not work in a great way - the old situation where you have a person and a wall behind the person and that push AF adjusts the focus to the wall but not to the person in front of the wall. Here the FA can be usefull.
post #434 of 579
But the FA is just a passive indication of what is in focus and what is not, right? In most cases I run into shooting like a subject through a chain link fence, I know that I need to use manual focus so here getting the touch of that button and then the focus ring. I suppose having the red outline can aid min knowing when you reached your goal of the subject being in focus. Like using the Zebra for iris, the FA is for focus.
Thank you for helping me get my head around that function.

This Z10k reminds me of my old Sony HVR Z1U. Not really broadcast, but much above consumer too. Once I learn it I think I will be happy with its results.

I hope the extra IR remote control arrives today. I am eager to open it up and modify it for wired remote for my "Pole-cam" configuration.

FYI- I have the $20 CGA-D54 no name 3rd party battery tests now. It runs the Z10k in 24p 3D for a 2 hr 15 min recording time. It weighs much less than the Panasonic version and is spec. at 6000ma ( which I don't believe) What is good is the price. The Panasonic battery is about $120 so the knock-off one is 1/6 as expensive.
post #435 of 579
Thread Starter 
Sure, it is a passive indicator - but it is an indicator one can use in addition. The trick is that such tools help us to fall into traps, and yes - I see it also similar to a zebra that supports me to get the gain right. The beauty of the Z10K is that it offers all those tools that supports the shooting in a great way.

Some days ago I took again my older Panasonic 750 in my hand and was really frustrated since I did remember how painfull it was to adjust the camera in the right way. Sure it can be done - but it is no fun if you have familarized yourself with tools like the Z10K.

And yes, it is not broadcast really. It has still some stong consumer aspects, like the adjustment using the display. The concept is a mixture of both worlds I think. There are some compromisses, but one can live with them.

Well, I have two original Panasonic battery packages. I think they are really great - working for 5 hours or so. Wonderfull. But sure, they are expensive.
post #436 of 579
Completed the modification of the IR remote to make it a wired device. Works great! I have to make a bracket to fix it to my pole - monopod yet but electronically it works great, even in bright sunlight.
post #437 of 579
Thread Starter 
What do you mean with "Pole-cam" configuration?
post #438 of 579
Hi

Is it normal that convergence adjusting is so slow? Ok, it is precise, but i think its too slow to adjust from 99 to 20 for example.
On TD10 it was only a few sec going from one side to the other smile.gif
Also can this cam show magnified area in the lcd screen, so we can see focus easier?
post #439 of 579
Thread Starter 
Yes it is normal - but there is a nice trick to adjust the convergence faster: zoom in with the automatic convergence mode enabled - you see that the convergence changes very fast during zooming to higher figures. Whe you have reached the figure you want, then change to the manual convercenge mode - by changeing the convergence setting wheel a little bit manually. To go back to the automatic mode, you have to switch the convergence reset.

By the way, the setting C99 is the mode where one has parallel axis - something prefered by a lot of people to shoot with prallex axis, even if that needs the disparity adjustment in the postpro.
post #440 of 579
Quote:
Also can this cam show magnified area in the lcd screen, so we can see focus easier?

This might be where you use the red outlines on the parts of the scene that are in focus. Expanding the LCD for extreme zoom to aid in focus was something I had on my old HVR Z1U and now have on the NEX5n The Panasonic Z10k has this FA mode or Focus assist.

Wolfgang- The pole-cam setup is what I use to raise the camera above the people in a crowd to shoot a stage or parade. I use my monopod but fix it into my belt buckle and extend it up from there. I can get the camera to about 9 ft. in the air. I use the Lilliput remote monitor and a hardwired remote control. It's one of the best tools I use and carry with me at Disney.

This is the setup for the TD10: ( Sorry but the forum image viewer doesn't seem to be working this morning, only attachment )



RemoteFullview.jpg 388k .jpg file

RemoteMonitorLancCtrl.jpg 496k .jpg file

I discovered the remote works quite well and the Z10k has a button that sets the HDMI output for either recorded video alone or I can set it for on screen data display including access to full menu navigation.
Edited by Don Landis - 3/16/13 at 11:04pm
post #441 of 579
Can anyone give be advise on the z10000 in low light levels.

During the day iv got some great results but in nightclubs ( one of my main clients) images are bery grainy :-(

I understand the chip size are very small in the z10 which isnt a great start. But was hopeing for a slightly better image, it looks worse than SD.

I use the camera in manual mode, at 1080p 25 i set the shutter fully open at 25/1 and open the iris up fully without goin into too much gain (max 10db), i also have a led light on the camera but still dont seem to be gettin any sharp images.

Any ideas where i am goin wrong? Are there any settings in the scene modes i can change to try and improve brightness and less grain?

Thanks in advance
post #442 of 579
Thread Starter 
I think here you come to the end of what a Z10K can do. Yes, there may be some (small) optimization modifying scene files, but I think that this will not be enough very likely.
post #443 of 579
cjcraigj-

The Z10k is a 3 chip camera design. ( 2 x 3 chip) Simple physics dictates that a given amount of light per lens will have to be divided by 3 for each chip imager. If the imager is equal to a single chip camera design, then a single chip will always operate at higher light quantity than a 3 chip design in the same scene. If a chip is operating at it's noise threshold, then, with 1/3 less light the 3 chip camera will have to be boosted in the light amplifier to achieve same exposure as the single chip camera. This amplification generates the additional noise in the 3 chip camcorder. Manufacturers get around this to some degree by making cameras with larger size imagers to capture more light. In other words the light capturing surface must be increased 3 times surface area just to equal a single chip camera's light sensitivity at same amplification.

The Z10k is the smallest in the family of professional Panasonic Pro 3D camcorders. The bigger ones sport larger imagers, bigger lenses and have lower light noise levels as a result. With this also comes bigger size, weight, and price tag.. But in our amateur consumer world the game would seem to be choosing a TD10 for those times when you are not shooting in optimum light. I've always been very impressed with the noise free black levels in the HDR TD10 but in all the Z10k examples, I've seen to date, the low light noise is pretty obvious and disappointing for decent exposure.
post #444 of 579
Believe it or not, today was my first serious shoot with the Z10k. With all the delays in the production of the SBE, then the bad weather, then some health issues for my dad, I just hadn't had time to see what it could do. eek.gif I used the Cyclopital3D wide angle lenses and had a a chance to compare the native wide angle to the two C3D adapters. Even without the C3D wide angle lenses, the Z10k has a more satisfying maximum wide angle setting than my JVCs. It's a 32mm equivalent, and in combination with its wider interaxial, the Z10k provides a greater sense of depth. Cyclopital3D makes a 22mm equivalent wide adapter and a fisheye. I find the 22mm more useful for the footage I shoot most often, but the fisheye will definitely come in handy, especially for tight interiors. Things are still mostly gray and brown at this time of year, but so far I really like what I'm seeing. In the coming weeks, I expect to use the 22mm adapter extensively, as I start to acquire the Steadicam shots I need.
post #445 of 579
Don, I am struggling a little with your reasoning on the poorer low light performance of a 3 chip camera, or perhaps my overall understanding is skewed. I understood that with a single chip camera, the light is filtered by a trychroic prism into RGB channels, giving 1/3 of the available light from the chip to each pixel. A 3 chip camera using the same size ccd/cmos sensors for RGB separation would surely give far better use of the available light levels, resulting in higher reolution pics and better low light performance or am I missing something?

My own 3 chip Panasonics give good low light performance with solid blacks.

Roger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-CCD_camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

cjcraigj-

The Z10k is a 3 chip camera design. ( 2 x 3 chip) Simple physics dictates that a given amount of light per lens will have to be divided by 3 for each chip imager. If the imager is equal to a single chip camera design, then a single chip will always operate at higher light quantity than a 3 chip design in the same scene. If a chip is operating at it's noise threshold, then, with 1/3 less light the 3 chip camera will have to be boosted in the light amplifier to achieve same exposure as the single chip camera. This amplification generates the additional noise in the 3 chip camcorder. Manufacturers get around this to some degree by making cameras with larger size imagers to capture more light. In other words the light capturing surface must be increased 3 times surface area just to equal a single chip camera's light sensitivity at same amplification.

The Z10k is the smallest in the family of professional Panasonic Pro 3D camcorders. The bigger ones sport larger imagers, bigger lenses and have lower light noise levels as a result. With this also comes bigger size, weight, and price tag.. But in our amateur consumer world the game would seem to be choosing a TD10 for those times when you are not shooting in optimum light. I've always been very impressed with the noise free black levels in the HDR TD10 but in all the Z10k examples, I've seen to date, the low light noise is pretty obvious and disappointing for decent exposure.

Edited by Roger Gunkel - 4/1/13 at 10:20am
post #446 of 579
Quote:
In other words the light capturing surface must be increased 3 times surface area just to equal a single chip camera's light sensitivity at same amplification.

Is this what is confusing? Sorry, I oversimplified the relationship for the simple logic in the explanation. The relation is not actually 3 times but a more complex relationship. Note the light loss in the beam splitter and that each of the colors has more light sensitivity than the other, green being the top, with red and blue much lower.

In the practical world
, my TD 10 shoots far less noise in low light than I have seen with the Z10k. But here the two camcorders are worlds apart in overall design.

When it comes to resolution integrity under good light, where chroma noise is very low, the Z10K produces a sharper, more detailed image, likely due to the 3 chip superior design.

So, in a given shooting environment of low light I would grab the TD10 but in high quality lighting, I would grab the Z10k.
post #447 of 579
I think that what was confusing was that from your post I was assuming that you were suggesting that a 3 chip camera doesn't give as good a low light performance as a single chip. Comparing those two cameras, there are a number of variations in the design of the two that would contribute to a difference in low light performance. I have used single chip cams in the past that outperformed other 3 chip cameras of different specs.

My experience in general though, is that given two otherwise similar spec cameras from the same manufacturer, one with a 3 chip spec and the other with a single chip, the 3 chip will always give better low light performance and better colour and picture resolution. That would of course be because the 3 chip would normally have 3x the light gathering surface of the single - 3x 1/3" sensors rather than 1x 1/3" sensor for example.

Roger
post #448 of 579
Within the next week or so, I'll be shooting a couple of tight interiors. I plan to use the Z10k with ambient light and with controlled 3-point lighting, so I should get a good sense of how it performs. My JVCs are very good in low light situations, but I have to use manual white balance. Auto WB for interiors has never worked that well for me with those cameras.
post #449 of 579
Roger- I have found the 3 chip always superior in color resolution and sharpness, but never in low light noise. It's a very difficult thing to evaluate because you would need to find two cameras that have the same size chip, lens system in single vs. 3 chip design. in a 3 chip the same light through the lens is divided three ways. The light isn't 3 times brighter unless the lens size is bigger to capture more of it which often it is. 2/3" chips vs 1/2 " chip in single also uses much smaller lens glass. That's how the manufacturers compensate in addition to the gain in the amp. I think there may be some errors in what the wiki article you posted assumed that could be confusing too.

Presently I don't have a lot of Z10k experience, but work I have seen from others in low light shows lots of chroma noise and I am concerned over this. Most of my work out west next week will be in good light anyway so I don't expect to see much experience here either.
post #450 of 579
One difference I notice with single chip camcorders (Sony HDV, Canon HF10, JVC TD1 and HMZ1) is the tendency to exhibit color fringing (red, magenta) around objects against an overly bright background. I haven't shot nearly as much with the Z10k, of course, but I'm not seeing that phenomenon yet with the 3-chipper.
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