or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › 3D Central › 3D Source Components › Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder - Page 3

post #61 of 556
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I can't recall if this review has been linked to before. It's French, so get ready to have Google translate it for you. If it's already been posted before, please ignore it. There are 3 clips taken with the camera, and some resolution test pics. They look quite good.

good link!
that makes me feel better that the test we did was with a brocken unit as the resolution pictures match with a other test from slashCam germany.

my z 10000 is "out for delivery" means i will get it in 1-2 hours.
post #62 of 556
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the link. I like in the test also the comparision with the TD10 - where you see quite well that sharpness and resolution are quite good of the Z10000, even a little bit better then with the TD10.

In addition I have here a test from the German magazine Videomedia, who come up with a resolution of 840 line-pairs (what is near the system limit of 1080).

But what I am most impressed at the moment are the scene settings - this type of presets allow a very good adjustment of the picture. I am playing with that at the moment, even if you find a lot of information in the net about that. I like it really, since it is a great tool to minimize noise or optimize if you wish to have a warm or harder color - whatever you like.
post #63 of 556
Thread Starter 
I have started to play with the scene settings. My first goal was to test settings, that are really low of noise. I have found two scene files that go for that - and I must say I like it:

- Detail level: +2
- V Detail Level: 0
- Detail Coring - 2
- Chroma Level -3
- Chroma Phase 0
- Color Temp A ch 0
- Color Temp B ch 0
- Master Ped -1
- Auto Iris level 0
- DRS Off
- Gamma B.Press
- Knee Mid
- Matrix Norm 2
- Skin Tone DTL Off

Published by vid35, here: http://vid35.wordpress.com/2011/02/2...om-scene-file/

And one with a similar effect:

- Detail level: -5
- V Detail Level: -5
- Detail Coring +2
- Chroma Level 0
- Chroma Phase 0
- Color Temp A ch 0
- Color Temp B ch 0
- Master Ped -2
- Auto Iris level +4
- DRS Off
- Gamma Cine-Like V
- Knee Auto (grau)
- Matrix Norm 2
- Skin Tone DTL Off

that has been published by abelcine, his clean profile: http://blog.abelcine.com/2011/04/06/...d-by-abelcine/

I think both are good start points for the further development of own scene files.

By the way, the Z10000 comes with the good old settings as described here:


At least for PAL I think we have to change the matrix from norm 1 to norm 2. Even for NTSC abelcine states that this seems to make the biggest difference.
post #64 of 556
I have just gotten a Panasonic HDC-Z10000 and was hoping and assuming that the MVC files that it creates would work in Vegas.

So far this doesn't seem to be the case, at least fully.

Platinum(v11) shows the thumbnails correctly but once a clip is loaded into the timeline, it only show black (except for a quick blink to image then back to black).

In Vegas Pro(v11), the thumbnails also display correctly. Once loaded into the timeline, different from Platinum, the clip sometimes is black and other times is correct or maybe only shows the cyan eye or the red eye. Scrolling the time cursor flips between these possibilities.

In Vegas Pro, if I make a simple edit and "burn to BluRay", the image plays back almost fine but there are sporadic black frames, sometimes in one eye (mostly right), or sometimes both.

In both cases, the project is set up to be stereo, anaglyphic, etc. The configuration works fine for 60i MVC files created on the Sony HDR-TD10.

Another anomaly is that PMB won't recognize 24P files but does see the 60i files.

The Panasonic bundled software will read and correctly burn BluRays and the files play back fine in WMV (though in 2D).

Anyone else seeing this problem?
post #65 of 556
Thread Starter 
What is the mode that you use for shooting?

There are 3 modes:
A - 1080 24p
B - 1080 50i (PAL)/60i (NTSC)
C - 1080 50i/60i without time delay between the half frames, but stored as interlaced format.

For B you should not see an issue. It is the same format as used by the Sony TD10 and that is fine for both Vegas but also the PD10. I have no issue with that format.

Vegas - but also the PD10 - has an issue with C, since that is a new MVC format that has not been used before. For C Vegas Pro 11 sometimes black in the timeline and preview monitor, and the PD10 tends to crash with that footage. I saw this issue with some first test clips, and have reported it to SCS some weeks ago.

A - 1080 24p - have tested that some minutes ago only, unfortunately it shows the same issue in Vegas Pro as C. Should not be, but it is so.

So, at the moment Vegas Pro works fine with 1080 50i/60i (B) only.
post #66 of 556
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

What is the mode that you use for shooting?

There are 3 modes:
A - 1080 24p
B - 1080 50i (PAL)/60i (NTSC)
C - 1080 50i/60i without time delay between the half frames, but stored as interlaced format.

For B you should not see an issue. It is the same format as used by the Sony TD10 and that is fine for both Vegas but also the PD10. I have no issue with that format.

Vegas - but also the PD10 - has an issue with C, since that is a new MVC format that has not been used before. For C Vegas Pro 11 sometimes black in the timeline and preview monitor, and the PD10 tends to crash with that footage. I saw this issue with some first test clips, and have reported it to SCS some weeks ago.

A - 1080 24p - should work fine, but I have not tested that yet.

Could you shoot some clips at 24p and post them? I'm selling some old electronics, and it's looking like I'll get close to being able to buy the Z10k without much other out of pocket expense. If so, I might get it sooner than I thought. But it would be very helpful for me to be able to throw some 24p clips onto the timeline in Vegas and see the results in a 3D Blu-ray burn. I'd like a few clips that show some moderately fast pans, and a macro shot - maybe 5 or 6 shots total. They don't need to be long - 8 to 9 seconds each. Maybe via Dropbox or MediaFire?

If you can find the time, I'd appreciate it, but I understand if you're too busy.
post #67 of 556
Thread Starter 
Joe, up to now I did not find the time to shoot something in 1080 24p, beside a first clip that I took some minutes ago to test the behaviour in Vegas. That is a clip showing only my monitor - not nice really.

What I can do is to shoot some clips on Saturday in 1080 24p. However, the situation is that this clips do not work fine in Vegas, at least the preview does not work. See my posting above. I have not tested yet if the clips can be rendered to 3D BD without an issue - so I do not know if it is a preview issue only, or if it is more.

I have informed SCS about that issue with the Z10000 files.

By the way, all clips from the Z10000 can be imported in the PD10 1129a without an issue, preview seems to be fine here too.
post #68 of 556
Thanks, Wolfgang. I'm really interested in learning more about this. A friend sent me one 24p clip, and he had trouble playing it in Vegas 10e. It loaded, but it crashed when played in the timeline. In Vegas 10e on my system (I haven't upgraded to 11 yet) I didn't have a problem playing it. I didn't try to burn a 3D Blu-ray, since it was so short and only one clip.
post #69 of 556
BluRay images output by Vegas from a 24P project (25Mbps) show sporadic dropped frames in the left, right or sometimes both eyes. There are also frequent "resolution" issues like an i frame being skipped. This also happens when a project is rendered out to a movie file.

Oddly, these dropped frames don't appear to be consistent. If you output the same project to BluRay image twice, it's different each time.

BluRay burn settings:

Sony AVC/MVC...
MVC 1920x1080-24p, 25Mbps...
Sony Wave64...
4800.000 Hz...

Video: 2 Streams, 23.976 fps, 1920x1080 Progressive, YUV, 25Mbps

Played back on a Sony BDP-S480 3D BluRay player - software rev. M07.R.0579

Interestingly, the same clip, run through MVC to Avi Converter (3dtv.at) and recombined into stereo in Vegas Pro burns perfectly to BlyRay.

...and yes, the 60i files from the HDC-Z10000 do seem to import and render fine.

Finally a BTW (and probably wrong thread) question from someone not super familiar with Vegas Pro... It seems ungodly slow at rendering 3D BluRay image... eg. over 12x program length. A 30 minute clip (1080i60 shot on a Sony HDR-TD10) took 6 hours to render (and only occasionally completes the task without crashing).
post #70 of 556
Thread Starter 
I have shoot some files in-door - and will upload that tomorrow (it is midnight here in Vienna, sorry has to wait until tomorrow).

Have some feedback by SCS - I think there could be a fast solution available for the playback issue.

Edit: we have to check if the sporadic dropped files after burning a 3D BD have the same reason - but I think so.
post #71 of 556
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

I have shoot some files in-door - and will upload that tomorrow (it is midnight here in Vienna, sorry has to wait until tomorrow).

Have some feedback by SCS - I think there could be a fast solution available for the playback issue.

Edit: we have to check if the sporadic dropped files after burning a 3D BD have the same reason - but I think so.

Thanks, Wolfgang. There's no hurry. I appreciate that you're taking the time to do it.
post #72 of 556
Thread Starter 
Well, the issue with the 1080 24p files is not a new one, the good news are that there will be a solution. Even if I cannot say how long it will take them really.

I have here some first 1080 24p uploads - but please be aware, that I am still learning with the unit. I have used the scene settings by abelcine, but maybe the exporse was too high. So please take that for test purposes only:






post #73 of 556
Thanks. I just played the clips in Vegas 10e. I wondered why you seemed to have two of the same shot, until I saw that you had changed the parallax setting in the second one - from negative to positive with the plant.

No obvious problem with playback. I'll try a render to 24p 3D Blu-ray.
post #74 of 556
Thread Starter 
Warnung: most of the files uploaded are identified both in my Z10000 but also in Vegas as 1080 60i.

I have no idea how that can be - my Z10000 is a PAL model, means tht 1080 60i should not be possible at all. A friend in one of our German forums has detected that some minutes ago only.

Have done some testshoots, and now my Z10000 stores the footage as 1080 24p
post #75 of 556
Yes, I checked and all the files except for the CU of flowers is 29.97. The flower shot is 24p (23+).
post #76 of 556
Thread Starter 
So, here some true 1080 24p clips:

post #77 of 556
Vegas didn't like those 24p files. First time it shut down, second time it burned but the images flashed and messed up.

Powerdirector took em and burned them fast with no problems. They looked great.
post #78 of 556
I created a one minute video by repeating the clips several times and doing a 1 second dissolve between each. Vegas 10e had no problem playing the clips or burning them to a 3D Blu-ray iso. I burned iso images 3 times, with slightly different arrangements and lengths each time, with and without dissolves. Not a single hiccup during timeline playback or burning. Not a single hiccup during playback (I only burned one physical disc from the 3 iso files) on my Sony 570 player. I didn't try PD10 yet, but my version of Vegas certainly didn't have a problem with the files.

Great! Thanks, Wolfgang.

I wonder what's different about my system. I'd think it was just a Vegas 11 thing, but my other friend has Vegas 10e also, and his system chokes on the Panny files. Strange.
post #79 of 556
Thread Starter 
For Vegas 11 it is a well known issue, that there are problems with the MVC 1080 24p and MVC 1080 25p/maybe also 1080 30p files at the moment. The MVC decoder generates sometimes black frames, so the preview is sometimes black and - as you have shown - also the render results.

I have described that in the Vegas 11 thread. But I know for sure that this issue will be resolved in Vegas 11.

For Vegas 10 there is also an issue, but that seems to take place in different ways. For me sometimes the preview blocks. If you use 1080 24p with Vegas, to my opinion you should move to Vegas 11 when the next update is available.
post #80 of 556
i play a bit with the panasonic z 10k yesterday and compare it to the
sony 3d and jvc 3d cam.
i also add the sony ex1r cam measurements as this was a referece 2d cam.

first start with the display.
the best 3d display has the sony hdr td 10.
the jvc td1 have a bad 3d display.
the z10k have a 3d display that is by far better than the jvc but not have the quality
the sony have.
it have less resolution (you can see the pixels compare to the sony) and
it not have a position where the 3d picture was perfect without any ghosting.
the sony if you found the right positon show a perfect 3d with almost no ghosting at all.
that is not possibel with the z10k.
also the sony offer the highest resolution.

resolution black and white:
"please note that this numbers are my numbers and i made them as best as i can. i rate it with my eye when i not can separate the lines anymore.
thats the number i post"
if i have more time i may will add pictures about it.
but you can see here what test pattern i use and how i rate it:

i have now a new very big 1.2meter wide test pattern that show perfect all testpictures inside.
here are the numbers based on this test pattern.
all 3d cams are record at 1080 60i 3d in full auto the sony 2d ex1r are record in 1080 60i 2d.

horizontal resolution:
jvc 780 lines
sony 590 lines
z10k 590 lines
sony ex1r 2d cam 960 lines

vertical resolution:
jvc 790 lines
sony 620 lines
z10k 790 lines
sony ex1r 2d cam 840 lines

resolution lines 45°
jvc 830 lines
sony 690 lines
z 10k 690 lines
sony ex1r 2d cam 930 lines

nose in dark seq.:
the jvc show big noise and much bugs at low lumen see also the link where i post
pictures about it (sony vs jvc above).
also you can see doubleconturing a bit.

the sony makes a better picture very littel noise with small doubleconturing that black lines have.

the z10k show not any noise at all at the light level i made this test recordings.
(about only 25 lumen! )
and not show any doubleconturing at the boarder black lines have so a very clean image.

I will test again under real outside condition (means not only test pattern) before I will rate the z 10k.
post #81 of 556
Danke, Wolfgang, for uploading those clips.

All of them loaded fine into VegasPro 11 but only 00009-00019 played perfectly from the timeline. I did not render. I wonder why clips 9-19 would always play fine and the others had the flashing. I also loaded my own 24p 3D video file I created with my twin cameras set to 1080-24p and paired. This played fine.
The others all had black mixed with 2D and 3D flashing.

Power Director10-

All clips loaded and played fine in PD10 A couple that would not play in Vegas looked out of focus when played in PD10 but I don't believe this was the reason for Vegas playback trouble.

Image impression- I could see the nice resolution and excellent color saturation probably as a result of the 3 chips vs. 1 chip of the TD10 and TD1 3D cameras. This alone will make Joe happy I'm sure. Plenty of color and image detail to make us smile!

Image stability- While all the clips were static photograph style shooting, I could tell it was handheld and had some degree of image shake. The shake is typical of one trying very hard to hold a TD10 steady with the image stabilizer shut off. It seems the Z10000 used in these tests either didn't have the image stabilizer turned on or it is near ineffective for hand held shooting. I would like to see more testing on this. While I recognize that Joe's style rarely uses handheld camera, I'm just the opposite as I need a camera to shoot steady in rough crowded environments where setting a tripod is either not permitted by rules and regulations or impractical. Admittedly, The image stabilizer on the TD10 has me spoiled. As such, without this I would not spend for a 3D camcorder that has this limitation. Many of us have requirements that can be said to be a deal breaker, this is one of those for me.

3D control- Wolfgang- I liked what you did with this. Being able to accurately position the scene screen plane. It seems much superior to the 3D control in the Sony TD10. Very impressive!

3D depth. Both closeups and medium stage shots were very nicely separated with no flatness. I like the advantage they got with the wider IA coupled with the wider angle lens and close up capability than what I've seen with the JVC and the Sony.

Hopefully you'll get some good weather to shoot some larger stage outside, both wide angle and telephoto, handheld, with and without image stabilizer and with some left-right pan movement.
post #82 of 556
i did some test outside.

i had a mix of rain and snow and the lumen is in the 1000-3000 range at ground.

i was surprised to see that the z10k offers over all the best picture.

the jvc still have the finest detail visible but the picture looks a
bit wash out with some kind of bugs inside hard to describe.
they looks like some kind of noise or compression bugs i cant tell for sure.

the sony have a more clear picture not as good as the z10k and it show a bit less

the panasonic almost show the same detail the jvc have but """much more clear and

this test the z10k is for me the winner but i think i not will use the
sony ex1r 2d cam again as this picture is by far better than
all this 3d cams together.
not a surprise that most tv stations in germany use the sony ex1r!

later today i will shot some low light seq. with a lot motion inside but i am
almost sure where here will be the 3d cam winner.
post #83 of 556

Thanks for the test results. From the few clips I've seen, I really like the image quality of the Z10000. I have to be careful, though, not to jump the gun. I need to finish my Garden video with the JVC for the sake of visual continuity. I don't want to introduce a different camera with a different look half way through the process.

The image detail of the JVC has always impressed me, probably because I usually shoot in great light, and your numbers illustrate why. Almost invariably, I've gotten high resolution and tremendous depth of field in my Garden shots. The area where I'm most impressed with the Panasonic is its handling of red. That's obviously superior to the JVC (probably, as Don says, because of the 3-chip imaging).

I also think I know what you're talking about with the issue of a "noisy" look to some JVC footage, even in good light. It looks to me like MPEG artifacting. The strange thing is that I don't see it on all of my displays. I see it clearly on the LCD that I use for editing. I don't see it at all on my Samsung plasma or JVC RS40 projector, even though I have image processing turned off. I don't know what causes it, but if you can try a different 3D display, the problem might seem to disappear.


I have to keep myself in check here. I need to wait for NAB, as you suggested some time back. Maybe the next Sony will be even better than the Z10k. It would be great to have a camcorder that has the good attributes of all these current devices. Also, the Panasonic has already dropped by $200. It's listed at $3,299 at B&H Photo, instead of $3,499. That happened within a week or so of its release.
post #84 of 556
Thread Starter 

the files 9-19 plays perfect from the vegas timeline, since they are 1080 60i files! Due to an unknown reason my PAL-Z10000 recordes some files as 60i, even if that should not be possible (it is a PAL unit, what should be able to capture 50i, 25p and 24p). I have not been able to repro that behaviour up to now. Today I did some first shooting outside, was a cloudy day, but the features of the Z10000, the handling, the overall impression is much better compared to the TD10. That is a camcorder that can be used really.

Check the files 27-33 in vegas pro 11, that is really 1080 24p and you will see what I mean.

Yes, the first clips were handhelt - I did that fast to give you and others some first uploads. The image stabilizer was turned on. It is a well known fact that the z10000 applies only the optical stabiliser with 3D, what is less superior compared with the TD10 where you see a quite strong combination of both optical and electronical stabilizer. For my shooting today I used in addition a monoped that I typically use also for other shootings like weddings. This combination works fine, together with the fact that the camcorder is bigger then the TD10 and has a much better ergonomic form, I ended up with stable pictures in most cases. But for sure - here the TD10 is better.

I have seen another issue today. Focus of the video tends may be an issue, or at least I have seen that with my first outdoor shooting. Means, that I am not well trained up to now with the Z10000 - and for some shootings I have seen that the camcorder focus to a wall behind some people, and the people in front of that are not sharp anymore. This happened because I have not focused so much to the focus, are not trained well yet with this camcorder, and maybe also because the 3D monitor in the 3D modus or mixed modus is not the best tool to check the focus. But here I really like to continue my testing, because that should happen in the beginning only. Now, where I am aware of that, I think that I will check that during shooting.

What I liked really today is the great iris/gain controll. Together with the 2 zebra functions, that can be adjusted between 50-100%, you can adjust the iris/gain in a near to stepless way. That is great to adjust the picture really. I have not seen noise really, beside the tests where I have blown up the gain to the limit with a minimum light. But for outside shooting that was fine. Also today I have used the abelcine settings.

On my HDTV I have seen more details then the display shows, especially where you face very dark and very bright parts beside each other. Maybe it is a good idea to use an additional lilliput or similar monitor. Color correction worked great, I liked to use the fixed settings for outside or inside shooting - delivers a natural picture. And last - the 3D impression that I have seen from the outdoor shootings look nice too. As expected, it becomes weaker if you shoot larger buildings, but that is well-known from the limited and fixed IO.

The internal micro was set to 2.0 - and I was surprised to hear a nice sound too. But I will acquire additional XLR-units for sure.
post #85 of 556
I'm hooked on my JVC's "area touch" for focus and exposure. Touch a section of the screen and it focuses and adjusts exposure for that spot. It's a tremendous feature and saves me from blowing out bright areas time after time. It's also a great way to focus quickly and precisely when I'm shooting with the macro lens. Does the Panny have any such function?
post #86 of 556
Joe- Keep in mind that if Sony does come out with a feature competitive 3 chip'er to compete with the Panasonic by next April it likely will beat it in a few areas such as the monitor, Image stabilizer etc but I would not be surprised at that time it will cost a thousand more while at that time the Panasonic will drop to $2500. Also, JVC may also offer a semi pro to compete.

Wolfgang- FYI on the Lilliput monitor- Don't expect it to be as good as the TD10 quality. I have one as you know and it is OK for framing and focus (what I needed it for) but if image quality is also a concern, Sony does make a similar one with high quality screen. It's about $500 MSRP.

Just curious on using Zebra. How does in impact the 3D monitor or is Zebra only active when the screen is in 2D mode?

XLR audio quality is of less importance to me as is DD5.1 quality. I like the BT wireless mic with IFB on the TD10 but this is a Sony feature. The Panasonic will need the XLR audio in for my high end Sony wireless Receiver (WRR-862). I would only use it when going wireless mic, otherwise I would be recording in DD5.1 just as I do with my TD10.
post #87 of 556
Thread Starter 
Well, for me it was for some specific reasons no choice to wait until next year. And, there will be always the next beast, that will be better hopefully.

Well, for the Lilliput I am still not convinced, since that is in 2D only. I am sure that I can come up with a workflow in terms of manual/automatic adjustments that will allow me to controll also the focus beside convergence really.

The zebra is active both in 2D and 3D mode - what is great. I like that feature.

I have not checket yet the 5.1 audio quality, but the 2.0 audio quality is fine with the internal micro too. However, I have orderd both a mono and a stereo xlr micro.

The area touch, as you know it from the TD1, is not implemented in the Pana. You have the sperate ring to adjust focus, expose and zoom - what is great. You have to familiarize yourself with that too. So for focus a separte adustment ring. You have the manual mode and the automatic mode. And you can put the "push focus" function in the manual mode to one of the user defined buttoms - what I think is important. They have decided to spend separate buttoms for the bar, what is less important then such a push auto function - and I would not have done that. But it is as it is.
post #88 of 556
Aside from the use of a wireless receiver, I would only add xlr local microphone with a pro audio shock mount, mini blimp and fur for wind and spurious noise reduction. Adding a hard mounted mic to the camera, IMO, is a waste of money. I base this on experience with broadcast cameras vs. the quality of included stereo mics in consumer camcorders.

I'm not sure if the Sony monitor will super the screen display data or not. I know the Lilliput does not. It does have it's own safe marker and over-underscan options as well as blue Screen for smpte color bar calibration. It is awkward to put the monitor into those modes.

Been meaning to ask you on the focus ring- is it mechanical responsive or a delayed servo type? I would be impressed if this 3D lens was mechanical responsive. I've never been too pleased with the consumer level zoom and focus controls using servo control. even spot focus feature on a Canon or Fujinon broadcast lens is slow but quick to respond.
post #89 of 556
Thread Starter 
Well, as said my impression of the internal micro is that it is fine in 2.0 - no more tests done yet. From most internal micros I have not been impressed really in the past. So I expect an improvement by XLR-equipment, but I do not have experience here.

Screen display data - well, if you connect a hdmi device with the Z10000, you see at least the information from the Camcorder, and for the internal display you can switch that on and off. But what do you mean by "super the screen display data"?

Focus ring - well, I have not opened my Z10000. But I would think that this works with servos, but not mechanical. At least you do not feel any restistant if you move it, but it reacts in a fine and nice way. But I think that this is all what we can expect for that money....

I have played a little bit more with the total focus system - since the combination is what is important to the user. The assistant focus (marks edges that are sharp in red) can be used both in 2D and the 3D modus. Push auto (if you have that on a defined bottom) works in 3D too. So I think one can use the Zxk in a way, where he either uses the autofocus - with the risk that the camcorder focus to a wall behind people. Or you can use the manual mode, use the push auto function for a first setting; and then use the assistant to check if the objects are within the sharp range. If you switch off the 3D mode, you can check that also in the 2D mode. I think that is something that should work out, all together.
post #90 of 556
Thread Starter 
The new update of Vegas Pro 11 - released yesterday - solves also the issue with 1080 24p and 1080 25p/30p footage of the Z1000.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: 3D Source Components
AVS › AVS Forum › 3D Central › 3D Source Components › Panasonic-hdc-z10000-3d-camcorder