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post #91 of 490
12/22/11 at 5:54am
I have question about camcorder “HDC-Z10000”. I can not see option to change the distance from the camera to a plane of footlights (plane of zero parallax). The option “Convergence” is incorrect to tune the plane of zero parallax because “Convergence” result in increasing for the parallax of infinity (incorrect value). The “Convergence” options use only for not deep 3D volume (for example studio, room and stage). For deep 3D volume (for example street of city and perspectives) the “Convergence” is absolutely incorrect option (incorrect value of the parallax of infinity). [Small display of 3DTV can excuse error in the parallax of infinity but not large display.] For deep 3D volume (street, perspective) use only parallel direction for axis of objective lens. In order to change the distance from the camera to a plane of footlights use PARALLEL axis of lens shift or/and matrix shift (image shift). It is single correct method. For example this method use Sony TD10, HXR-NX3D1 and professional 3D camcorder Sony PMW-TD300. Yes, as result, we can have (for lens shift) chages in resolution of picture But we have correct 3D video. Unfortunately I can not see option to change the distance from the camera to a plane of footlights by shift (not Convergence) at camcorder HDC-Z10000. Can you show me this option? If it option is absence in HDC-Z10000 - therefore HDC-Z10000 is not 3D camcorder (fiction. That is tipical mode for Panasonic). In this case we will have small resolution after coreection of sourse without Convergence (convergence imposibble for correction) in special program (for example Vegas) . Important function 3D camcorder is tune the plane of zero parallax function at camcorder. Otherwise I can get much better quality by stereorig (two small camera 50p) plus Vegas at same time for correction.
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post #92 of 490
12/22/11 at 9:39am
The plane of zero parallax is not necessarily the plane of footlights. Personally, I feel setting the plane of zero parallax to the plane of footlights is restrictive and limits creativity in shooting. The plane of zero parallax is where you want it to be. The plane of footlights is almost always the limits of where your performance can go toward the camera. (Creative exception is where the performance moves into the audience) The plane of footlights is an artistic license issue and the plane of parallax is a technical setting in the 3D camera(s). In general, you can shift the plane of parallax with the camcorder's 3D adjustment control but the plane of footlights is always set with the field of view and framing the shot.

Also, when fixing convergence of a distance moving object you have to reset the convergence for perfection. This causes a need for using the time line keyframes. This is fine when dealing with one moving object in the scene but when objects are moving about, in and out, it becomes near impossible to achieve perfection of convergence for all moving objects. Compromise is the order of the day. Personally, I've been rather lazy in making this effort and allowing bit of ghosting. My excuse is the computer was so slow, I cut some corners. With my new computer, I find working in detailed editing like this much easier so I have begun to use keyframed corrections as object moves about the stage.
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post #93 of 490
12/22/11 at 10:44am
Don Landis
Yes, I can change the zero parallax plane after shooting by 3D plugin for Adobe Premiere for example. I do it. I have my mirror stereorig (two professional camcoders). But !!! I must make small zoom of viewpoints in order to keep size 1920x1080- it way to lose resolution. Therefore it is good method to tune the zero parallax plane at shooting (matrix of camcorder Sony have special additional pixels for shift images of viewpoints). If I use Convergence method I can use camcorder for not deep 3D volume only. If I don't use Convergence method at HDC Z1000 (deep 3D volume) I have only two bad quality camcorder without possibility tunes the zero parallax plane at shooting time (none additional pixels). Therefore I will lose resolution at compilation (by Vegas, Premiere) good the zero parallax plane to size image 1920x1080. Therefore HDC Z10000 have not any advantage (only simple synchronization) in compare two camcorders. Therefore my professional stereorig (professional lens) give me mach better quality. Sony method (shift) is correct method save quality at shooting (correct the zero parallax plane at shooting) for any 3D volume because not need correction video after shooting. I am waiting Sony semiprofessional camcoreder (shift method) with 3 matrix on lens. HDC-Z1000 not interesting for me.
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post #94 of 490
12/22/11 at 11:46am
Thread Starter 
It is an endless discussion, if somebody adjusts the plane of zero parallax during shooting, what can be done with a 3d rig with adjusting the convergence only. Or if somebody should shoot with parallel axis only, and adjust the plane of zero parallax during the postpro. For sure both methods can be done - even if adjusting the convergence in the postpro will mean that we have to crop the footage everytime, what means that we loose resolution. At least my exerpience is with both the Sony TD10 but also with the Z10000, that I wish to adjust the convergence in a lot of cases - and both with the TD10 and the Z10000, resolution is lost if I do so.

So, if I adjust the convergence for the T10 during shooting, I can avoid that I loose resolution - but the same is true for the Z10000. As long as I adjust the convergence during shooting, there is no loss in resolution with the Z10000. At least as far as I have seen that.

But maybe I did not get your point. My understanding is that converging axis may have other disadvantages (keystone effect), but also our eyes converge the axis - so from that side this is not completelly out of the natural viewing.
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post #95 of 490
12/23/11 at 12:04am
The convergence method (not parallel axis) and parallel shift method (for parallel axis) is not same method (not same result after postpro correction). You can have approximately same result for not deep 3D volume (room). For 3D deep space (street for example) the convergence method result in increasing of the parallax of infinity object (incorrect value). Convergence our eyes is good sample. Convergence algorithm (to measure distance) of our eyes is correct for short distance (approximately 3-4 m). Our eyes are focusing at near object (infinity object is out focuses at time). Therefore brain exclude the parallax of infinity object at convergence method in order to detect near object. 3D video file must have correct parallax for any distance because you want see any objects at any distance at any time. Therefore convergence method not correct for deep 3D volume for shooting. For convergence method you have affine distortions also. Therefore you have vertical parallax if don’t use special correction algorithm.
Concerning adjusting the convergence in the postpro. You can’t change axis angle (projection on matrix) in the postpro. Concerning adjusting the plane of zero parallax in the postpro and in at shooting. The camcorder use raw data (none intermediate compression) for shift at shooting time. It is good mode to save quality. Convergence method is good for short distance (speaker at studio (wall at short distance) shooting) because it is clear to convergence method for our eyes for short distance. Parallel axis method (plus electronic shift at camcorder) is more universal and important mode. Professional camcorders (for example Sony PMW-TD300) have two mode. Camcorder that have only convergence mode is not universal 3D camcorder.
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post #96 of 490
12/23/11 at 6:35am
andry- Do you know what Sony is using in it's convergence control? Not referring to the electronic shift like we have in the TD10 but the lens/camera angle mechanical adjustment. Sony claims it is proprietary and is special to the PMW-TD300.

Wolfgang- When I set up my slide bench with twin 2D cameras the vertical calibration is fixed so that no adjustments need be made. Only Horizontal calibrations are performed. First an IA is decided upon based on camera to primary subject distanceThe bigger the stage, the wider I set the IA. My slide table allows for 4" to 30" IA choice.
If I understand Andry's description, he is talking about the second calibration I do which is changing the angle of the camera's body so that the two cameras are essentially parallel. The way I have done this to date is to use the screen display grid of each camera. I zoom in full telephoto and frame in a distant object that is the same width as my IA separation. I position the left camera so that the screen grid cross hairs is at the left edge of the measured object and adjust the right camera so that the cross hairs is at the right edge of the measured object. This makes my cameras calibrated for parallel all the way out to infinity (within reason). In the TD10 there is no 3D control as the cameras in my system are operating in 2D mode. Also, this means that there is no reduction in resolution due to crop/zoom of the electronic convergence.

Andry- I've only been shooting with the twin camera bench for 3 months so my experience is limited. Please offer any suggestions to improve my procedure.
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post #97 of 490
12/23/11 at 11:09am
Thread Starter 
Well, I am not sure if I get your point really - but I try to analyse what I think about the points. And for sure I am a practical but not a theoretical oriented guy. So there is a lot of math behind that, for sure, but I have not found the time and willingness to go into that really.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

The convergence method (not parallel axis) and parallel shift method (for parallel axis) is not same method (not same result after postpro correction).

For sure that is true. But both methods are recommended and possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

You can have approximately same result for not deep 3D volume (room). For 3D deep space (street for example) the convergence method result in increasing of the parallax of infinity object (incorrect value).

There is something that has been called "depth bracket" by beloved Mendiburu. As far as I understood, one major point how to adjust that is to decide above the interocular distance. But for sure there is no way how you can come up with a correct parallax of infinity objects if you do not adjust the axis in a parallel way. But I think that is not the question really, for some reasons: first you have to decide what depth position and depth bracket you want to have. That can be calculated by using different programms - the Z10000 is the first camcorder that comes up with such a calculation internally, but there are tables and software tools to do that. So from that side the convergence angle you adjust for a street or landscape shooting must be different to a shooting in the short distance. Second, there is something like a stereoscopic comfort zone. According to where we put the sceen plane with parallax zero, there is a limited range before and behind that screen plane. So adjusting the convergence is not wrong nor right, but must care about that comfort zone. The third aspect is the human being eys. We are able to see something about 30 m in 3D really - so our sterescopic depth perception is very limited in really. Objects that are far away will be arranged by our brains using other depth cues - relative size for example.

So, if you wish to set the two camera axes to parallel, your 3D picutre will be 100 percent in front of the screen, and the only perfect overlapping will be the ones at an infinite distance to the cameras. Knowing that the comfort zone is near to the screen, there is the risk that near objects are outside the comfort zone maybe

I think that most people do not shoot with a fixed convergence only, and setting the convergence to parallel axis in a general way, will take out one of the creative adjustment parameters - the position of the screen plane.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

3D video file must have correct parallax for any distance because you want see any objects at any distance at any time.

To my opinion, that is no correct parallax for any distance. Maybe in a mathematical sence only - or whatever a correct parallax is. But the most important concept is that of the stereoscopic comfort zone. To avoid or minimise or control the stress that we put on the audience. And if that is fine, the overall 3D production is fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

Concerning adjusting the convergence in the postpro. You can't change axis angle (projection on matrix) in the postpro.

True - but you can adjust parallax and that is enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

Convergence method is good for short distance (speaker at studio (wall at short distance) shooting) because it is clear to convergence method for our eyes for short distance.

True, and that is why all consumer and prosumer camcorders like the TD10, the TD1 but also the Z10000 uses convergence controlls. Given there limited IO (even for the Z10000), that is in line with the fact that they will deliver fine results in a depth bracket of mybe 0,5-30/40 m only. For landscapes shootings I would tend to use two independend camcorders and a 3D sbs rig.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

Parallel axis method (plus electronic shift at camcorder) is more universal and important mode. Professional camcorders (for example Sony PMW-TD300) have two mode. Camcorder that have only convergence mode is not universal 3D camcorder.

Who said that there is an universal 3D camcorder, if we are talking about consumer babies like the TD10, TD1 or even the Z10000? To my opinion, also professional camcorder like the TD300 are not universel, given their limited possiblities of IO. The camcorder can be used for specific setting, everybody who tells you a different story has not even understood the basics of 3D movie making. If you want an "unversal 3D camcorder", the most universal setting will always be two independent camcorders, a good 3D rig that suits your needs for the distance you go for, a good controller.

Control-L will be the consumer solution, there are more professional settings in the Canon world for example. But for sure the price is then twice or even higher, compared to the Z10000 that we are talking here. Even pixel shifting - if that is right what you say for the TD10 what I do not know, but maybe that is right - even pixel shifting will be no anwer really, since for a "real" 3D setting the control of the IO is more important compared with the control of the convergence.

So we should be realistic about how and when we use what hardware for a production. The hobbit uses about 45 reds, all kind of sbs or mirrow rags - and by the way that adjust conververgence for sure, using differential pictures during shooting. You can see that in the hobbit production videos, there at 2:25 min in a quite good way:

http://video.golem.de/audio-video/63...he-hobbit.html
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post #98 of 490
12/24/11 at 1:18am
The full guide for all rules for shooting of stereo is not trivial. I can explain part of rules if you want. I can deduce this rules and calculate table by myself.
The value of stereobase defines condition of shooting. The universal stereobase for camcoreders is in range 30-45 mm because exist the history standard for maximal zoom object at screen of 3D cinema about zoom = x2 = (screen size)/(natural size). For this condition the maximal parallax is equal distance between eyes of human (approximately 65 mm). It is very not comfortable have negative (angle) convergence for eyes The tables (that you can see at internet) is for Russian stereo system (“stereo 70”, 1966). Russian “stereo 70” standard is first stereostandart for 3D cinema. Later this standard was used for IMAX and are included in mainstream professional camcorder “Phantom 65” for IMAX. This standard and Phantom 65 use only parallel axis. The shift in Phantom 65 are realized by special prism. In order to have comfortable 3D volume you can use ratio R =(stereoBase)/(distance to nearest object) <= 1/20 for not deep volume and R <=1/25 for deep 3D volume (for parallel axis). The zero parallax plane adjusting by shift viewpoints.
At convergence methods you need to keep condition the parallax of infinity object < 65 mm at screen of cinema. It is impossible the condition for large angle (no parallel axis) for convergence methods. Therefore convergence method use for restricted volume (wall at short distance) only. Concerning correct parallax. Yes, exist only single point of view for natural parallax. But is difference between not natural parallax and incorrect parallax (> 65 mm at screen of cinema 21m/7m (standard)). Yes, for 3DTV small screen you can overrate angle. The simple 3D camcorder actively use this in order to reduce cost; but as result you can not show your video at cinema.
The situation for large stereoBase of camcorders > 45 mm is very complicated. In this case you have many restriction for composition of stage. Large stereobase is not universal stereobase. It is very long discussion.
I use two professional camcorder Canon by my homemade mirror stereorig. Canon now have special camcorder C300 for mirror stereorig.
Concerning “convergence” method at Z10000. May be Panasonic use incorrect definition for term “Convergence” – may be it is electronic shift actually. Can you check it by next mode. Could you please use street (deep 3D volume) and tune “Convergence” key for experiment? The shift for nearest and infinite object must be same at screen for parallel axis.
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post #99 of 490
12/24/11 at 4:38am
Thread Starter 
The whole theorie behind 3D is a long story - and well, I have not found the time to go into that really. There are nice books about that, like that free download:

http://www.stereoscopic2.org/library/foundation.cfm

Beside that, I think it is more important to understand the basics, and for that the book of Bernard Mendiburu is still great (who states, by the way, that he is not able to make those calculations by himself).

For the Z10000 I *assume* that it is similar as what we know from the TD10. Given cost limitations, an electronical shift will be the cheaper solution then an more expensive mechanical shift. So my assumption is that we have both in the TD10 but also in the Z10000 an electronical shift.

The definition for convergence is the same for both the TD10 and the Z10000, to my understanding. For both camcorders there is a convergence wheel, that allows you to adjust the nearpoint to the parallaxe of zero - so to adjust the position of the screen plane. At least from the practical experience I see no huge difference here - beside the fact that the Sony TD10 has the disadvantage that it does not show a permanent convergence information, it has only "+" and "-" during adjustment, and a reset buttom. The Z10000 gives you at least a permanent information about the setting, beside an information about the depth bracket (what is nice to know and to check). Both camcorders does not have fully professional settings, as one would find for $30.000 camcorders - but what do we expect here? The Canon C300 is a complete different class, in terms of price and capabilities.

With the Z10000 the use has 99 positions to adjust the convergence, and I have no clue yet what convergence angle the minimum and maximum convergence setting is. But what I have seen in my first shootings is that the 3D effect is fine, also for what you call deep 3D volume. For extreme low distance between the near-point and the camcorder there is a special mode, they call it 3D zoom, what allows to capture objects also with a distance of 45 cm only. Seems to be a significant electronic (?) shift to push the near objektive behind the screen plane.

From my practical experience I can state that the convergence adjustment works for for the Z10000, similar to the Sony TD10 - even if one point of criticism is that the wheel is small, and to adjust the convergence setting takes some time with the Z10000. A better mechanical controll like a larger wheel would have been better.

Yes, there are a lot of constrains with 3D - camcorders like the TD10 or TD1 or Z10000 makes that easier compared with independend camcorders, but even here you can make errors.
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post #100 of 490
12/24/11 at 7:27am
Wolfgang S.
Thank you for reference to book. Unfortunately I don't know Bernard Mendiburu But I use books authors who builds standard "stereo 70" (who, by the way, carry out calculations by himself) These calculation is not more complicated then quantum optics and physics (my science sphere).- I think that is better use self opinions at discussion .

QUOTE (The definition for convergence is the same for both the TD10 and the Z10000, to my understanding.)

It is possible. Term "Convergence" (not parallel axis) is term of stereo theory. Now it is possible that term "convergence" company use as term the direction from lens to point at the zero parallax plane at manual. May be company think that it is more understandable for users.

QUOTE (Given cost limitations, an electronical shift will be the cheaper solution then an more expensive mechanical shift.)

The six matrix of Z10000 require powerful chip for electronic shift. It is reason why I clarify situation for Z10000 (not for Sony) because the mechanical shift (by piezoelectric) can be the cheaper solution then an more expensive electronic shift (powerful chip) for six matrix. If Z10000 actually use electronic shift it is good. The mirror stereorig is massive Sony hxr-nx3d1 have same quality as TD10 I want light 3D camcorder for travel at high quality.
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post #101 of 490
12/24/11 at 7:27am
Last summer, several of us did some study of the TD10 and TD1 (JVC) and determined that the only adjustment of the 3D control was an electronic shift of the left and right images. There is also significant over shoot so that the actual 1080x1920 pixels would not be cropped. If the convergence was done in Vegas then cropping and zooming of the image would occur. I'm pretty sure that for the money the Z10000 only uses electronic alignment as does the lower class consumer cams. However, the Sony PDW TD300 specifically claims a proprietary lens adjustment in addition to the electronic adjustment. While the IA is fixed in this camera to 45mm, the included angle on the lenses is probably what can be adjusted. I have only seen this adjustment on a stereo twin cam bench such as the ones from Technica3D. I had the opportunity to work with these at NAB last year.

When I first started to construct my stereo twin camera rig I began studying all those equations and became quite overwhelmed. But was quite relieved when I found those theories were all just that... Theories and the actual in practice use was quite forgiving. As long as you followed several fundamental rules, the complex math could be left to the physicists.
Those fundamental rules were:
1. IA is an arbitrary value you select to create stereo depth illusion for a given sized stage of activity. The bigger the stage the wider the IA needs to be to prevent flattening out the objects into the background.
2. Vertical disparity adjustment is critical. Cameras need to be aligned properly on the bench. in the vertical. Post correction of this is possible with crop zooming disadvantages.
3. Twin cameras need to be synced with respect to framing, zoom, brightness, contrast, depth of focus, and exposure. For twin cameras this requires a sync unit that can access these adjustment and sync them for both cameras which need to be identical. A device for consumer camcorders is difficult to find these days. I am lucky that I was able to obtain one that syncs the TD10 through it's Control L port. This is the Lanc Shepherd and it is advertised but not currently in production.
4. To achieve perfect alignment the left and right eye files must be calibrated in post as it is next to impossible to do it mechanically. If not aligned, the image will possess ghosts. To move the plane of zero parallax in and out, more than just horizontal disparity has to be adjusted. Either the included angle of the twin cameras or the keystone adjustment of a fixed IA camera needs to be adjusted. There is a fixed plane of zero parallax for fixed IA cameras. This position can be moved with the zoom control. If you try to move the plane of zero parallax out of its safe window of stage size you will get ghosts.

Andrey-
I would like to see your stereo mirror rig. Here is the bench I built which uses two TD10's in 2D mode.
LL
LL
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post #102 of 490
12/24/11 at 7:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

Thank you for reference to book. Unfortunately I don't know Bernard Mendiburu But I use books authors who builds standard "stereo 70"

Well, Mendiburu is one of the Gurus in 3D ... whatever that means. Do you have the details about the books you mention - if they are available in English or German.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

These calculation is not more complicated then quantum optics and physics (my science sphere).- I think that is better use self opinions at discussion .

Well, when I was a student and did my thesis in technical chemistry, I also had the time to play with such calculations. Today in my job as management consultant I cannot spend that time - but it is great for everybody who finds the time to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

The six matrix of Z10000 require powerful chip for electronic shift. It is reason why I clarify situation for Z10000 (not for Sony) because the mechanical shift (by piezoelectric) can be the cheaper solution then an more expensive electronic shift (powerful chip) for six matrix. If Z10000 actually use electronic shift it is good.

Well, as said I do not know really what technical solution is used here. But what I see is that - even if you change the conversion settings in the Z10000 - you do not loose a part of the picture. No cropping takes place. So that is similar as I see that from my TD10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

The mirror stereorig is massive Sony hxr-nx3d1 have same quality as TD10 I want light 3D camcorder for travel at high quality.

For sure, because beside the 1080 24p and the XLR-audio part the TD10 and the NX3D1 are identical camcorders. And that is the major issue to my opinion - only to allow in addition 1080 24p and white balance is not enough justification for the much higher price. Here the Z10000 offes a lot of additional, powerful settings.

But since you said that you wish to use a light 3D camcorder for travelling - the same is true for me. The Z10000 is significant better then the TD10 - but given its design it is also larger. And the perception of other people is a different one - you are recognized as professional what may bring you in troubles in some places like musseums, while the TD10 will find a higher acceptance since it is perceived as a consumer unit.

Don, there are some other controlers available - I can look for the links it required.
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post #103 of 490
12/24/11 at 8:21am
Quote:


For sure, because beside the 1080 24p and the XLR-audio part the TD10 and the NX3D1 are identical camcorders. And that is the major issue to my opinion - only to allow in addition 1080 24p and white balance is not enough justification for the much higher price. Here the Z10000 offes a lot of additional, powerful settings.

But since you said that you wish to use a light 3D camcorder for travelling - the same is true for me. The Z10000 is significant better then the TD10 - but given its design it is also larger. And the perception of other people is a different one - you are recognized as professional what may bring you in troubles in some places like musseums, while the TD10 will find a higher acceptance since it is perceived as a consumer unit.

Don, there are some other controlers available - I can look for the links it required.

The NX3D1 also has other significant internal electronics differences from the TD10 but then lacks the 5.1 audio recording as I recall. The Panny is a much better choice for the money assuming you can deal with a lessor monitor than the one in the Sony.

Sync unit for TD10's. I had several I checked into last summer but all of them were in the same situation of either out of production or just out of stock. Worse, none of the others were tested with the TD10 in 2D mode. One I looked into was panned by reviewers as lacking adequate sync control for video. Most of them are designed for still cameras.
I'd be interested in any links you have collected as maybe you found some that I did not know about.

I agree with you about the stealth shooting of a consumer camcorder. The best is the Bloggie 3D. I've gotten away with that claiming it was not video but just a still camera.
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post #104 of 490
12/24/11 at 8:31am
Andry- Check this out- Joe Clark forum member here has one for his JVC TD1 and loves it. I'm thinking of getting one next year for times when I want a wider IA but need handheld and working crowds.

http://www.cyclopital3d.com/Sony_SBE_flyer.pdf
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post #105 of 490
12/29/11 at 2:35am
Sorry, I is delayed with answer I have the many work at finish of year
Concerning book for “stereo 70”. I have hard copy of the book (not in English or German) only. In internet I can see only single page from this book:
http://s39.radikal.ru/i085/1009/b4/8a86a32081a9.jpg
Unfortunately I can’t find electronic version “stereo 70” book (It is old book).
Concerning
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

IA is an arbitrary value you select to create stereo depth illusion for a given sized stage of activity. The bigger the stage the wider the IA needs to be to prevent flattening out the objects into the background

The stereoBase > 65 mm have many restrictions. I also use large stereoBase but I use many rules for this situation. My fundamental rules contains many items It is very long discussion. For example. If we shooting the building at large stereoBase. Yes it is good to create stereo depth illusion. But we have restriction for 3D deep. For this case (shooting the building) the clouds at sky will have incorrect parallax. But I can shooting at clear sky (effect the minimization of building) Concerning my stereorig. I have three different stereorig for different conditions 1) For studio (stereobase 100 mm; nor mirror rig) 2) Universal mirror rig. 3) Light, For photography (vertical position of camcorders). I use two photo camcorders Canon EOS 550D and professional lens. Canon 550D have video mode (quality video is better than Panasonic Z10000). I use photo camcorder because it is universal device – I can make also 3D lens raster photo high quality. I can show my 3D photo and video. But Unfortunately I don’t like show my professional mirror rig because I have many my new ideas at construction. In particular I have own construction for the synchronization. For the synchronization you must have the synchronization of synchrogenerators (not input signal only) and high stability of synchrogenerators of two camcorders. If you want compare our 3D mastery it is better compare result (3D comfortable also) For example it is my 3D photos (random travellers) anaglyph 3D format (use maximal resolution for quality)
http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/stereo3.../album/145548/
Wolfgang S. , May I ask you show 2D 1080p (24p) video in order to see quality of Z10000?
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post #106 of 490
12/29/11 at 6:43am
Quote:


The stereoBase > 65 mm have many restrictions.

Very true but I don't believe it is a requirement to master the skills of a mathematician in order to achieve good results. "Rules" can be very simple and just a few in number.

I already mentioned one which is you reserve large stereo base IA for only very large scene stages. A good second is to be cautious of foreground objects as a function of distance to the camera. This means that if you are shooting a scene with wide stereo base where the main object is 1000 meters away, and you select a stereo base of 1/3 meter and use a lens of 35mm you would not want any foreground objects in the scene closer than 100 meters away or you will have difficulty converging the foreground image and the viewer will not be comfortable. The numbers I used here were not calculated but just an example of a "rule of thumb" I use with my equipment. I developed a set of range limits I can use with my system so when I set up a shot, I know what will work inside that range.
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post #107 of 490
12/29/11 at 8:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrey.g.smolin View Post

Wolfgang S. , May I ask you show 2D 1080p (24p) video in order to see quality of Z10000?

I have posted some 3D files here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21324790

For 2D - maybe you will laugh: but until now, I have not taken any shoot with the Z10000 in 2D! What kind of motive would you like to see? Outdoor or indoor? Any specific points? I cannot promise to get that done in a fast way, but maybe it is possible.

To my opinion, there will be better camcorders for 2D - for example l would assume that the EX1R is superior. But it depends what somebody is looking for.
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post #108 of 490
12/29/11 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

What kind of motive would you like to see?

I want check maximal quality of optic and matrix system Z10000 (actual resolution, color noise, artifacts, ...) Also I have question Can I extract two viewpoint video for 3D mode by programm for Z10000 (not Vegas) for correction by other programm (Premiere for example)?
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post #109 of 490
12/29/11 at 9:55am
Thread Starter 
Well, maybe for that reports from test labors are more accurate? How would you see that from a simple shooting? But let me look, if I find the time to come up with some 2D shootings.

I think you mean if you can separte the two video streams of mvc footage in two separate streams. Maybe that can be done with the mvc to avi converter by Peter Wimmer

http://3dtv.at/Products/MvcConverter/Index_en.aspx

but I am not sure if the converte works also for 1080 24p.

CS5 does not have an stereoscopic plugin yet - but there are the Cineform products like Neo and Neo 3D that could be used for that too. Maybe the new Cineform products offers now also a conversion tool to split up the two streams. There seems to be a public beta testing, it was announced in another thread here in this forum.
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post #110 of 490
12/29/11 at 10:19am
Stereoscopic plugins for Adobe Premiere CS5 and CS4 was made by russian programmer
http://kostasoft.com/index.php?mod=pages&page=montage
It is very good plugin. It is free but not for commercial using. I use this plugin approximately two year.
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post #111 of 490
12/29/11 at 12:51pm
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the link - is maybe of interest for some CS users.
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post #112 of 490
1/10/12 at 8:09pm
CES- Stopped by the Panasonic booth today to get a hands on.

First impression was it really was much larger than I anticipated and was slightly larger than my old Sony Z1U. So, that ends my interest right there as it is not designed for my work direction these days.

Second thing to check out was the quality of the monitor. This also disappointed me as it was not very high resolution. Better than the JVC monitor but no where near the PQ of the Sony on the TD10. But this monitor is not a cause for me never to buy this camera.

Panasonic makes three versions of this 3D format camcorder. The next level up ( sorry I didn't note the model numbers) sells for $16500, has a true HD monitor and has a wider IA but is even bigger. Finally they have a rather large 3D camera with even bigger lens that sells for $$35,000.

I also checked out the convergence wheel on all three. It performed equally well on each camera and one of their engineers was there to show me how to proper calibrate the convergence wheel. Using his recommendation, I had trouble seeing the double image on the Z1000 but on the higher end ones it was easy. He said to use it best to add a 3D monitor of about 6" wide.
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post #113 of 490
1/18/12 at 9:48am
I have read the Z10000 manual but it wasn't completely clear that it's convergence settings could be automatic. There didn't seem to be a specific auto/manual convergence control. I suspect that it can record in auto, but does anyone know if convergence must always be adjusted by the user?
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post #114 of 490
1/18/12 at 10:06am
Thread Starter 
I have the Z10000, and there is also an automatic adjustment of the convergence.
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post #115 of 490
1/18/12 at 10:59am
Thanks, Wolfgang. I'm about to order the Z10000 and wanted to make sure. It seems to be the 3D version of my Sony FX1 that I've been waiting for.

It's interesting that the manual mentions specific right lens offset adjustments. After the discussions last year about apparent right lens focus issues with the JCV and Sony models, it seems that Panasonic wanted to address that concern.
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post #116 of 490
1/18/12 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

I have the Z10000, and there is also an automatic adjustment of the convergence.

The JVC TD1 has auto and manual parallax adjustment, also, and I think it works basically the same way as the Panasonic. The problem with auto adjustment is that it makes it easy to create edge violations. That is, the camera adjusts the convergence point to somewhere in the middle of z-depth. Objects up close easily collide with the bottom or sides of the frame, and you have to push those objects back behind the screen plane to get rid of the violations when editing. Post production slows down, and resolution takes a hit when you adjust the left/right frames. You can set the TD1 manually, just like the Panasonic. It's not hard, but it requires a few button presses. I like the idea of having a wheel and an "overlay" screen to set the parallax. It should make it easier than the same task is on my JVC.
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post #117 of 490
1/18/12 at 7:04pm
Joe- what I found with the Z10000 was that the adjustment is easy with a larger monitor but the small low resolution one on the Panasonic was very difficult to see the calibration. Even the Panasonic rep said they recommend using an additional larger monitor to set the adjustment. The two higher end camera models selling for $16500 and $33000 had very high resolution auto stereo monitor that made the task easier but still not as easy with a larger monitor.
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post #118 of 490
1/18/12 at 7:23pm
Good to know, Don. Actually, I can do the parallax adjustments pretty quickly on my JVC, with its crappy little 3D monitor, so the Panasonic's would have to be a step up. Based on your CES reports, sounds like we might not see many more interesting developments in 3D camcorders in this price range any time soon. Thankfully, the software side seems to be heating up. I'm fairly excited by Edius. GoPro/Cineform is also making some noise, with the release of its new software.
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post #119 of 490
1/19/12 at 6:34am
Yes Joe- While I'm excited about the smaller size of the TD20, it is low on my priority list for 2012. All it offers me is smaller size to carry. I just completed my first couple of days shooting in the Valley of Fire, NV ( scrapped my plans for Death Valley as I discovered better opportunity for scenery in VoF). This showed me that my portable twin system worked very well and adapted nicely to different size stages. I look forward to editing. I think the bulk of my 3D budget this year will be spent traveling and shooting.
While the Z10000 still suffers a lower res monitor, it is much better than the JVC you seem to have gotten used to. As you don't work in the same environments I do, I think you would do well moving to the Z10000. Currently I see the Z10000 as a twin system physical size and cost as I would require two now for my work.
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post #120 of 490
1/19/12 at 6:59am
Sounds like fun. I look forward to seeing your work in the coming year.

I'll probably move to the Z10000 some time this year. I think its feature set matches my shooting style pretty well. But I need to finish my huge Garden video project with the JVC. I don't want to throw a different camera's footage into that pot of soup. I have what I think are some stunning shots of the Garden from last fall. It has gorgeous color at that time of year.
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