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New Epson 3D projectors! 3010, 5010, 6010 - Page 47

post #1381 of 2311
11/28/11 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

Dude, is that a typo??? Please tell me you did not pay $1400 for an HDMI cable...

+1!!!

Ed
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post #1382 of 2311
11/28/11 at 9:30am
I tried calibrating my Epson3010 in 2D and 3D (yeah, I am one of the worlds first ever to try 3D calibration !!)

I used the "calibration for dummy's blog" and found the whole thing very interesting and great learning experience....I spent about total 10 hrs trying out different things and have some very preliminary results.

Can some calibration expert comment on if my 3010 is behaving as expected ?

Epson 3010 2D Cinema After Calibration
Here is what I get after 1st pass calibration....I am able to get the gray scale within the E=3 circle but the G, R Primaries are way off and I am not finding it easy to move them back to reference as the dummy-blog is not very detailed in the advanced section......Is this expected of Epsons ? What can I do to make them near-perfect ?




Epson 3010 3D Dynamic Before Calibration
For 3D, I strapped the glasses to my Eye1 calorimeter and played the AVSHD calibration Disk on my Samsun 6700 3D bluray plarer with 2D->3D conversion enabled and tried taking all readings BEFORE calibration to see where it stands and I see that Green is all over the place in terms of saturation and primary....I tried to follow the same steps for 3D, but its seems that my FTL dropped by 75% when glasses are ON and the calibration steps were a bit more difficult as some of the sliders for contrast, brightness, RGBYCM dont change the reading much....anyway I am only posting BEFORE cal chart as my AFTER cal settings got messed up, so need to redo it again



Do any of these charts make sense and is there something I can do to get the green in control ?
LL
LL
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post #1383 of 2311
11/28/11 at 9:47am
Epson 5010 vs Panny 7000 shootout is posted.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...5010/index.php
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post #1384 of 2311
11/28/11 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

Epson 5010 vs Panny 7000 shootout is posted.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...5010/index.php

All these reviews with no gaming lag review, fail.
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post #1385 of 2311
11/28/11 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

Epson 5010 vs Panny 7000 shootout is posted.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...5010/index.php

epson wins!!!
from a quick look at the 2d pics i would think the panny won.
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post #1386 of 2311
11/28/11 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kthejoker20 View Post

All these reviews with no gaming lag review, fail.

Where are the comments on input lag?!?!?!
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post #1387 of 2311
11/28/11 at 10:12am
When speaking (and listening) to Epson folks at CEDIA it seemed as though the 5010 was to be the next generation of the 8700 UB. Although this may be true for most aspects of the 5010, the one limitation is the lack of Vertical Stretch. I just got off the phone with Epson tech support (I had to get patched in via a conference call via a major reseller of Epson projectors), and Epson verified there is no Vertical Stretch nor support of Anamorphic for the 5010 (or even for the future).

This is a major show stopper for me. I have spent so much time building my home theater to support 2.35 with my DIY anamorphic lens, that even thinking about using a "zoom" feature for a 2.35 picture makes me feel ill..

After all this wait for my 5010, I am in the process of canceling my order, unless someone else has any ideas??
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post #1388 of 2311
11/28/11 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

epson wins!!!
from a quick look at the 2d pics i would think the panny won.

The colors between the two appear to be different so that might come down to personal taste but the Epson wins on black levels. It's black and not rusty black.
*Epson 5010 on right.
**What's with the blotches on the Panasonic in the upper left/lower right corners.

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post #1389 of 2311
11/28/11 at 10:33am
shadow detail seems to be better on the panny.
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post #1390 of 2311
11/28/11 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

The colors between the two appear to be different so that might come down to personal taste but the Epson wins on black levels. It's black and not rusty black.
*Epson 5010 on right.
**What's with the blotches on the Panasonic in the upper left/lower right corners.


Does this mean that the Epson whites will have this yellowish tint?
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post #1391 of 2311
11/28/11 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by harthenry View Post

....I just got off the phone with Epson tech support and Epson verified there is no Vertical Stretch nor support of Anamorphic for the 5010 (or even for the future).

OK, I think I just answered my own quesiton -- not sure why I did not think about this, however, since I am in the market for a new Blu Ray, why not just purchase the Oppo bdp-93. It has a built in CIH vertical stretch scaler built in. DUH! Guess I was just caught up in the moment of the 8700UB having CIH and the 5010 does not. (There is also the DVDO Edge Green, which I hear is really nice -- however, I have no experience with it).
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post #1392 of 2311
11/28/11 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

The colors between the two appear to be different so that might come down to personal taste but the Epson wins on black levels. It's black and not rusty black.
*Epson 5010 on right.
**What's with the blotches on the Panasonic in the upper left/lower right corners.


I may be mistaken, but I double checked the review.

You got it backwards. The Epson is on the left and the Panny on the right.

The Epson has it's dynamic iris stuck FULL open in 3d mode. The dynamic Iris on the Panasonic still works in 3D, so it can close down leading to darker darks, (but also dimmer whites)

The long and short of Art's review is: If you're big into 3D consider the Panny. Otherwise go with the Epson. As Art is big into his 2D stuff and large screens for movies, he favors the Epson. But if this was the case, I would consider the JVC RS units are valid alternatives. (Providing they have bulb issues worked out)

I'm still waiting for bloody review of the 6010 to see if it fixes these issues. (Loss of CFI and iris in 3D)

I'm having a hard time justifying the extra lumens after calibration.
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post #1393 of 2311
11/28/11 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGriffin View Post

I may be mistaken, but I double checked the review.

You got it backwards. The Epson is on the left and the Panny on the right.

I believe you are mistaken. Go back and read again. Epson on right in those photos.
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post #1394 of 2311
11/28/11 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

I believe you are mistaken. Go back and read again. Epson on right in those photos.

Correct.

"Here's an image taken with Legends of Flight running in 2D. You can see the blacker blacks on the Epson (right). "

http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...bottomline.php
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post #1395 of 2311
11/28/11 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by harthenry View Post

I just got off the phone with Epson tech support and Epson verified there is no Vertical Stretch nor support of Anamorphic for the 5010 (or even for the future).

Does anybody know if the 6010 does anamorphic stretch also with 3D.

If it does, the investment is a bit more than the 5010 but we do get for that:
-2 pairs of 3D glasses
-spare lamp
-ceiling mount (if not needed but can resell)
-one extra year warranty
-anamorphic stretch
-THX mode (instead of natural)
-3D THX mode
-black casing instead of white

So it depends on supplemental cost vs value.
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post #1396 of 2311
11/28/11 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSev View Post

Does anybody know if the 6010 does anamorphic stretch also with 3D.

No, the 6010 (nor any projector for that matter) at this time will "anamorph" a 3D image -- this also includes external scalers. Most 3D material at this time is shot at 1.78 so having anamorphic would not do any good anyway.

Additionally - you can only get the 6010 from an authorized Epson installer (not an online retailer).
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post #1397 of 2311
11/28/11 at 4:50pm
Hi, I did some searching but I couldn't find anything. I was wondering if anyone knew if the 3010 had ARC via HDMI. Thanks in advance.
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post #1398 of 2311
11/28/11 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcarspawn View Post

Hi, I did some searching but I couldn't find anything. I was wondering if anyone knew if the 3010 had ARC via HDMI. Thanks in advance.

I would say no. No off the air tuner in the unit therefore nothing to return.
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post #1399 of 2311
11/28/11 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

Epson 3010 2D Cinema After Calibration
Here is what I get after 1st pass calibration....I am able to get the gray scale within the E=3 circle but the G, R Primaries are way off and I am not finding it easy to move them back to reference as the dummy-blog is not very detailed in the advanced section......Is this expected of Epsons ? What can I do to make them near-perfect ?


Yeah, you should be able to get it much closer than that. The first thing I'd recommend is calibrating Natural instead of Cinema. Also, see if there's a sub menu under that mode "REC 709". Use that if it's there. Looking at the Cine4Home review, the Cinema mode on the 5010--I'm assuming it's the same on your 3010--is set up for Pictures and camcorder content. That's a different colorspace than HDTV and Bluray.

BTW, what sensor and calibration program are you using?

Your dynamic CIE diagram looks like an Epson, sure enough. (I'm only seeing one plot for Cyan? Did you not do the saturations for Cyan?) You definitely have more Cyan in your bulb than previous Epsons. On the other had, the Green looks even more curved than my 8700UB. You can improve that a lot, but do you need to with 1400 Lumens in Natural? If you do, you can improve it for sure.

First get good calibrating just the gray scale. Brightness, contrast, white balance, gamma. In that order, then go back and do it over to dial it in. Once you're comfortable with that, then get good at calibrating Natural mode. Don't even think about Dynamic yet. Get very comfortable calibrating Natural via the Dummies guide. Now Calibrate the Gray scale on Dynamic. Do Not try the color gamut--RGBCYM--on Dynamic yet. Next, calibrate Natural--again--at 75% saturations. Here's the guide: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16166537 Once you're very comfortable with that, now try the 75% method on Dynamic. Calibrating Dynamic at 100% saturation is a waste of time because of that green curve. But calibrating 75% is a bit more advanced; you need some practice before you try it. And calibrating Dynamic at 75% is tougher yet.

The Dynamic CIE diagram is never going to look pretty, but the picture can look pretty good. Calibrated Natural will always be prefferable to Dynamic, unless you really need the lumens. With 1400 lumens in best mode, you're never going to need Dynamic in 2D.

BTW, if you want to end the debate on the output of the 3010, you can get a meter that will measure your lumen output for $15...
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post #1400 of 2311
11/28/11 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by harthenry View Post

Additionally - you can only get the 6010 from an authorized Epson installer (not an online retailer).

We all know how to get those authorized installer items. You are so close you can reach out and touch it.
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post #1401 of 2311
11/28/11 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

I would say no. No off the air tuner in the unit therefore nothing to return.

Oh ok. I've never really done anything besides old conventional set ups. What I will have is a ps3 hdmi'd into a soundbar which will have an hdmi out to the projector. All of these things connected with high speed cables and every component is 3d capable. Does this sound like it will work to give me picture through the projector and sound through the sound bar. Thanks again.
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post #1402 of 2311
11/28/11 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

BTW, what sensor and calibration program are you using?

+1 here falafala. Looks like you are all in here with the FP thing lol. Most folks with entry level units do not go this far but as a potential hobby I can see it. Keep us posted. Heck I calibrated my DLP TV with my AVR the other day just for the heck of it. I do need more equipment though for serious calibration.
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post #1403 of 2311
11/28/11 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

Yeah, you should be able to get it much closer than that. The first thing I'd recommend is calibrating Natural instead of Cinema. Also, see if there's a sub menu under that mode "REC 709". Use that if it's there. Looking at the Cine4Home review, the Cinema mode on the 5010--I'm assuming it's the same on your 3010--is set up for Pictures and camcorder content. That's a different colorspace than HDTV and Bluray.

BTW, what sensor and calibration program are you using?

Your dynamic CIE diagram looks like an Epson, sure enough. (I'm only seeing one plot for Cyan? Did you not do the saturations for Cyan?) You definitely have more Cyan in your bulb than previous Epsons. On the other had, the Green looks even more curved than my 8700UB. You can improve that a lot, but do you need to with 1400 Lumens in Natural? If you do, you can improve it for sure.

First get good calibrating just the gray scale. Brightness, contrast, white balance, gamma. In that order, then go back and do it over to dial it in. Once you're comfortable with that, then get good at calibrating Natural mode. Don't even think about Dynamic yet. Get very comfortable calibrating Natural via the Dummies guide. Now Calibrate the Gray scale on Dynamic. Do Not try the color gamut--RGBCYM--on Dynamic yet. Next, calibrate Natural--again--at 75% saturations. Here's the guide: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16166537 Once you're very comfortable with that, now try the 75% method on Dynamic. Calibrating Dynamic at 100% saturation is a waste of time because of that green curve. But calibrating 75% is a bit more advanced; you need some practice before you try it. And calibrating Dynamic at 75% is tougher yet.

The Dynamic CIE diagram is never going to look pretty, but the picture can look pretty good. Calibrated Natural will always be prefferable to Dynamic, unless you really need the lumens. With 1400 lumens in best mode, you're never going to need Dynamic in 2D.

BTW, if you want to end the debate on the output of the 3010, you can get a meter that will measure your lumen output for $15...

Thanks for your feedback...I thought no one will respond ! I tried all modes including NATURAL and the green is off in all cases by almost the same amount.

Anyway, today I spent all my time trying to find out what controls will move that dran GREEN primary back to its ideal value....I tried every possible control you can find on 3010 and that green didn't budge to the left...it would only move down when i lower the saturation but it would not move left or right....

Then i saw that there is a 10% red component in GREEN that didnt change even when I reduced RED controls...this makes me wonder if Epson has put in a permanent red bias even in 2D mode to compensate for green tint of the Epson glasses....

To test my theory, I placed the 3D glasses (which are obviously OFF in 2D mode) infront of the PJ lens......lo-and-behold the red component vanished and I am able to get all the colors lined up correctly now as you can see below...

also notice that the RED and GREEN SATURATION points are off and may be "75% Calibration" is needed only for these two (BLUE is perfect)



Now I am worried that if this is a limitation I have to live with as you cannot possibly wear the glasses even in 2D mode just to get best CIE diagram ? I watched a bit of KingKong with these settings and the Image looked stunning with and without glasses (there is a bit if red push if you remove glasses)....should I return it ?
LL
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post #1404 of 2311
11/28/11 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

+1 here falafala. Looks like you are all in here with the FP thing lol. Most folks with entry level units do not go this far but as a potential hobby I can see it. Keep us posted. Heck I calibrated my DLP TV with my AVR the other day just for the heck of it. I do need more equipment though for serious calibration.

I bought a Eyeone-Lite and dowloaded free Color-HCFR and AVSHD-Calibratin disk as recommended by the dummy's-guide

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

hats off to its author who generously shared secret-arcane info that allowed me to have some real good fun and now I can follow along experts debating the heck out of calibration settings
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post #1405 of 2311
11/28/11 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

Most folks with entry level units do not go this far but as a potential hobby I can see it.

It's amazing how much better you can make one of these entry level units with calibration. I would much rather have a calibrated 8350 than an uncalibrated 8700UB. An 8700UB in THX mode is good, but no match for a calibrated unit. Especially the Epsons, or most any LCD PJ IMHO. An 8700UB out of the box in THX mode is pretty close to dead on for the 100% color gamut, which is the same thing as saying the vast majority of color output is well under-saturated. I believe that's where the belief that DLPs have more "pop" comes from. Take a 3010 calibrated at 75% saturation, and it's going to have a better overall picture than a 8700UB--that isn't calibrated at 75%-- any day of the week, almost certainly better than a 5010 as well. DIY calibration allows an entry level PJ to perform far above entry level standards for minimal expenditure.
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post #1406 of 2311
11/28/11 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

I bought a Eyeone-Lite and dowloaded free Color-HCFR and AVSHD-Calibratin disk as recommended by the dummy's-guide

First thing, put that sensor in a plastic bag with a desicant. The budget colorimeters drift in color over time. Next thing is to get a calibration file from somebody. If you know anyone with an Eye1 Pro, you can get excellent accuracy fom the LT. Without the calibration, it's accuracy is kind of a guess. If you don't have anyone around, PM me for my address. You can send me your LT and I'll calibrate it with my Pro... Just have the desicant on hand before; you'll want to keep it bone dry so that the sensor doesn't drift.
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post #1407 of 2311
11/28/11 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

It's amazing how much better you can make one of these entry level units with calibration. I would much rather have a calibrated 8350 than an uncalibrated 8700UB. An 8700UB in THX mode is good, but no match for a calibrated unit. Especially the Epsons, or most any LCD PJ IMHO. An 8700UB out of the box in THX mode is pretty close to dead on for the 100% color gamut, which is the same thing as saying the vast majority of color output is well under-saturated. I believe that's where the belief that DLPs have more "pop" comes from. Take a 3010 calibrated at 75% saturation, and it's going to have a better overall picture than a 8700UB--that isn't calibrated at 75%-- any day of the week, almost certainly better than a 5010 as well. DIY calibration allows an entry level PJ to perform far above entry level standards for minimal expenditure.

Yes, the cost of EyeOne is ~$100 which is very much worth it as you can use it for many many times.....I used it already to calibrate my 52" Samsung LCD TV...it was an eye-opener to me as it was top-of-the-line when I bought it and its calibration is way off...Epson on the other hand was much closer to ideal in gray scale out of the box....Epson gives 10 memory locations which I plan to fill up with a calibrated equivalent for the several pre-defined 2D and 3D modes that Epson gives (Dynamic, LivingRoom, Natural,Cinema)

But this permanent red bias seems to bug me ! Can someone with 3010 confirm this ASAP ?
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post #1408 of 2311
11/28/11 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by harthenry;21271213[B View Post

]No, the 6010 (nor any projector for that matter) at this time will "anamorph" a 3D image[/b] -- this also includes external scalers. Most 3D material at this time is shot at 1.78 so having anamorphic would not do any good anyway.

Additionally - you can only get the 6010 from an authorized Epson installer (not an online retailer).

The JVC's have 3D anamorphic stretch. http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp...Id=140&page=13
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post #1409 of 2311
11/28/11 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The JVC's have 3D anamorphic stretch. http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp...Id=140&page=13

I stand corrected -- I did say ".. at this time.." and now it is a new time . I will change my statement to ".. at this time there is at least 1 projector that can do 3D scope.".

I wonder if that projector provides scope in all Anamorphic Modes?
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post #1410 of 2311
11/28/11 at 7:59pm
Hey thanks so much. I have saved that link. Another gentleman told me to try the Geffen HDMI Detective so I have one on order

I am also presently working with Epson projector support.

BTW the 3010 is operating on a 106" It looks great and I am very happy. Also it is not my first Epson projector

Previously owned

Epson 1080UB
Sony VPL VW 10ht

And somebody asked my about the $1400 HDMI cable.. actually there are two custom cables 60 foot long. I forgot now if they consisted of gold shield LOL but I purchased them for the 1080UB

Finally this EDID thing seems exagerated by 3D to me. If average consumers can't plug and play a 3D display and have no idea what a spoofer is... that sucks.

Still I have made this post as more people may have Sony ES equipment and Epson new 3D projectors.

Cheers!
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