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Lilmike's Cinema T-6 - Page 3

post #61 of 142
10/18/11 at 7:25am
Thread Starter 
Seems reasonable. We can always make them look the part of a PA Sub.



This modification to the fold is slightly narrower, the entire back is removable as an access panel to allow for driver servicing. You could still use the side mouth if you wished.
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post #62 of 142
10/18/11 at 8:28pm
lilmike, you're pretty quick with sketchup! That I'm still learning. (Folding is excellent practice!) I toiled for a couple months trying to fold already-modeled/built horns into a triangular shape that would stack into this same corner, with no joy.

I'd planned to leave an access hole for servicing in the rear cover, by adding a frame around the hole, like the access cover on your F-20. I'm not the slightest bit concerned with looking like a "scoop" cabinet, (we had an old "Earthquake" cabinet that I was happy to see go... maybe 4 of them would have done something, but 1 sure didn't. Sold it with a repaired rubber surround for $300,) nor from deviating from your original, elegantly simple 1-sheet design. These will be stacked 2 wide, 2 high, and will look like a wall with a hole in the middle, (where the 4 side-firing mouths are clustered.) These will actually cover up part of a mirrored wall our patrons seem to like to dance in front of, so we, (the club owner and I,) even talked about covering the surface with plexiglas mirrors for fun. They can watch their pants flap in the breeze!

I've had an ongoing discussion with a couple sales people at Fi, and it seems tapped horns are foreign territory to them. Very helpful with answers about their products though. There is a bandpass cooling option offered for the X10, and probably the rest of their line, that uses some sort of heatsink that attaches to the pole piece, partially covering the vent hole, but conducting heat out of the motor, where scant airflow, (inside the inner chamber of a bandpass enclosure,) has a better chance of transferring it away. Seems this ($25) option wouldn't be necessary with the motor on the "breezy" side of the T-6 horn. They said this piece can be added at a later time, such as when it's re-coned. "To Go", the re-cone kit goes for $60 for this driver.

What say you to cooling fins lilmike? (IMO, seems like $25/cabinet would be better spent on mirrors.)
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post #63 of 142
10/19/11 at 7:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by emax View Post

lilmike, you're pretty quick with sketchup! That I'm still learning. (Folding is excellent practice!) I toiled for a couple months trying to fold already-modeled/built horns into a triangular shape that would stack into this same corner, with no joy.

I'd planned to leave an access hole for servicing in the rear cover, by adding a frame around the hole, like the access cover on your F-20. I'm not the slightest bit concerned with looking like a "scoop" cabinet, (we had an old "Earthquake" cabinet that I was happy to see go... maybe 4 of them would have done something, but 1 sure didn't. Sold it with a repaired rubber surround for $300,) nor from deviating from your original, elegantly simple 1-sheet design. These will be stacked 2 wide, 2 high, and will look like a wall with a hole in the middle, (where the 4 side-firing mouths are clustered.) These will actually cover up part of a mirrored wall our patrons seem to like to dance in front of, so we, (the club owner and I,) even talked about covering the surface with plexiglas mirrors for fun. They can watch their pants flap in the breeze!

I've had an ongoing discussion with a couple sales people at Fi, and it seems tapped horns are foreign territory to them. Very helpful with answers about their products though. There is a bandpass cooling option offered for the X10, and probably the rest of their line, that uses some sort of heatsink that attaches to the pole piece, partially covering the vent hole, but conducting heat out of the motor, where scant airflow, (inside the inner chamber of a bandpass enclosure,) has a better chance of transferring it away. Seems this ($25) option wouldn't be necessary with the motor on the "breezy" side of the T-6 horn. They said this piece can be added at a later time, such as when it's re-coned. "To Go", the re-cone kit goes for $60 for this driver.
What say you to cooling fins lilmike? (IMO, seems like $25/cabinet would be better spent on mirrors.)

That's not a new drawing, just me playing around with it to make a "PA version" a while back.

Additional cooling seems like an unnecessary expense, essentially solving a problem we really don't have. I have pounded on mine (with 8's fed their thermal limit plus) all night long at a house party, no complaints at all. Did not even smell warm varnish, though the motors were warm to the touch when I checked them after we shut down.

In a true PA role? I don't know. The Fi X is a far more substantial driver than I am using, and should deliver an extra 4 to 6 dB per cabinet, so 4 should be capable of something north of 125 dB at a meter, without boundary or room effects. I think if you're running four of these that hard, the additional cooling won't help too much, building more cabinets would be a better choice, because that same $25 buys the ply for a cabinet.
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post #64 of 142
10/19/11 at 10:21am
Could someone tell me how something like this compares to something like a HSU VTF-3 MK4 or the SVS PB12-NSD? I would prefer to build my own sub.
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post #65 of 142
10/19/11 at 3:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderExx View Post

Could someone tell me how something like this compares to something like a HSU VTF-3 MK4 or the SVS PB12-NSD? I would prefer to build my own sub.

I presented plots of how the T-6 performs at the front end of this thread. Others have built them and corroborated my results.

After a quick search, I was able to find a plot of sorts for the SVS, but as there is no mention of drive level - who knows how close to the driver's limit that plot really is? Though the plot is not flat to 20, the SVS does appear to extend a bit lower than the T-6 does. I know that with the 8-inch driver I am using, the T-6 is capable of the same SPLs as presented on that plot without undue stress or distortion, and it is nearly as flat.

In that same quick search, I could find nothing showing the response of the Hsu.

Both the SVS and Hsu are fine examples of commercial subs. Both are ported and use 12-inch diameter drivers. Both were designed by some smart folks. Both are commercial products, and will have a fit and finish commensurate with the price.

The T-6? It is just a little tapped horn I conjured up to see how much I could get from a single 4X8 sheet of 1/2" plywood and a relatively inexpensive driver. Fit and finish are totally dependent on the materials chosen and the skills of the constructor. In my case??? Let's just say that neither fit nor finish are among my strong points.

Without actual 1-watt efficiency specifications for the Hsu or the SVS, I can't really compare them to anything in a meaningful way, it would only be speculation. I have measured what the T-6 can do, in doing so, I pushed it past its limits, and I have shared what I learned.
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post #66 of 142
10/26/11 at 9:50am
Looking forward to building a couple of these in the 'Tarted up' variant with CVX-10's. Have a few friends who may copy them also, thank you Mike. Should make for Awesome Garrage / Back Yard Theater subs! Might even use them along with the other 6 CVX 10's in room for evening out room modes - not sure yet. Will either build them along side of theHouseWrecker V-4, or right after.. I can't wait! I'll post pics and measurements for you.
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post #67 of 142
10/30/11 at 8:01pm
Over a 4-day span a couple weekends ago, the DJs in my buddy's club managed to fry both pairs of 18in Technical Pro ZXP-18 drivers I'd loaded into EV MTL-1x cabinets this summer. The drivers lasted only 4 months, fed with 20-40% of their ludicrously exaggerated 4000W rated max power, (shading of the amps varied during this period,) so the manufacturer provided free replacements, (of a proven model, the Z-18.1,) but not before my buddy bought an emergency pair locally to tide us over. Now we've got an extra pair of 18's, so plans to build 2-4 of these T-6 cabinets are on hold. It's his nickel, so my focus has shifted to a more conventional design that can make use of the extra pair of 18's. I took a gamble on a pair of old, (probably early 1990's,) P.A.S. ported dual 18in cabinets from craigslist for $300, which actually work quite well with the original drivers. Neither these enormous beasts, (48x25x32front/20in rear wedges,) nor the pair of MTL-1x boxes fit into the corner I'd planned to fill with 4 of lilmike's T-6 cabinets, and I get nada below 55Hz from the EV's, and 45Hz for the P.A.S. boxes, but even in their sub-optimal homes, the 4 cabinets rock the whole room rather well, and have garnered compliments. His place is not frequented by audiophiles, so I guess that's it for cabinet building for a while, as I've got no spare cash or space to justify building these. Thanks again lilmike for all of your work designing these, and for personally interacting with me. Eric.
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post #68 of 142
11/1/11 at 9:39pm
Thread Starter 
So - I had an error in the cutlist....not sure how I managed to build mine, but I did. Might have used a different file, I don't know.

Anyhow - the piece "Core Bottom" should be 14 3/4", not 15 1/4". At least it was too long....you can always cut it shorter. I don't own a board stretcher.

Cutlists are updated, also added the cutlist and sketchup for the "tarted" version. Layout is the same, the back corners are just clipped (and not at a 45" angle either, ~40 and ~50, respectively). Any decent circ saw can cut a 50-degree bevel. Also added suggestions for bracing in two places.
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post #69 of 142
11/3/11 at 6:54pm
Ah, Comon Mike..

You can find the board stretcher at the "home depot", right next to the bubble level fluid and the left handed snipe wrenches, across the aisle from the assorted wood knots of various sizes...

Just a couple of aisles down from the wire stretcher.
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post #70 of 142
11/3/11 at 9:40pm
Thread Starter 
Oh, right next to the metric screwdrivers.

Will pick one up next time I drop by.

Looking like I'll be doing another pair of T-6 builds with a buddy this weekend.
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post #71 of 142
11/5/11 at 8:30pm
Metric screwdrivers, that's a good one.. lmao.. good luck on the build..

What drivers is your buddy using?
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post #72 of 142
11/5/11 at 10:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile34 View Post

Metric screwdrivers, that's a good one.. lmao.. good luck on the build..

What drivers is your buddy using?

We're building a pair with some Apex Junior Super 8s.
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post #73 of 142
11/8/11 at 1:06pm
Just a quick question here Mike, but if your t-6 uses 8's or 10's is there any benefit from using one vs the other?

I only ask cause you state your buddy is using eights, I thought to myself, same cabinet size, why would you not use a 10?

so I figure I would ask the master..
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post #74 of 142
11/8/11 at 3:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile34 View Post

Just a quick question here Mike, but if your t-6 uses 8's or 10's is there any benefit from using one vs the other?

I only ask cause you state your buddy is using eights, I thought to myself, same cabinet size, why would you not use a 10?

so I figure I would ask the master..

Primary reason??? I have the 8s on the shelf.

If I needed to buy drivers, I'd look at the 10" options very seriously. In most cases, they take more power, they have higher xmax, and they make more noise.
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post #75 of 142
11/18/11 at 8:34pm
Sorry, but I do not know English


But see drawings, ready to clone
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post #76 of 142
11/20/11 at 11:03am
I just screwed up. I got the dual 2ohm voice coil cvx10. Does anybody know how this will affect the response. I tried checking kickers website for the t/s parameters but they only show the dual 4ohm parameters.
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post #77 of 142
11/20/11 at 3:36pm
Thread Starter 
You're OK, the dual 2 works, the dual 4 is a bit flatter is all.

Here's the predicted 1-watt response. Yeah - it is a bit lumpy, but still +/- 3 dB where it matters. The room will probably make it look lots worse.


LL
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post #78 of 142
11/20/11 at 11:47pm
Lilmike thanks for making me feel better about my sub and you are awesome. One of these sub manufacturers needs to hire you on and let you work your magic. In the meantime thank you very much for all the work you've put in for all of us regular people so that we can enjoy the fruits of your labor.
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post #79 of 142
12/19/11 at 9:14pm
Lilmike, thank you very much for this wonderful construction. Very nice folding and simulated behaviour for my IMG 8" drivers seem to be very good!
this evening I did some CAD-drawing. Might be I will let cut the parts on a laser-cutter and it will be easy just to "puzzle" the parts together. Just need some adds for the speaker-fixing, wire-exits...but that is for later

...and I added the first cutting-sample from corrugated material just to check the CAD-design....seems OK to start soon with wood, my living-room is waiting on it
LL
LL
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post #80 of 142
12/30/11 at 8:56am
Hi Lilmike,
I currently have the table tuba by Bill using the Dayton 10" driver and wondering if I could pair it with the T6 without a problem?
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post #81 of 142
12/30/11 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zrei23 View Post

Hi Lilmike,
I currently have the table tuba by Bill using the Dayton 10" driver and wondering if I could pair it with the T6 without a problem?

No the phasing is much different between these subs and will cause cancellation at certain frequencies. Just build another Table Tuba for more output.
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post #82 of 142
12/30/11 at 2:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zrei23 View Post

Hi Lilmike,
I currently have the table tuba by Bill using the Dayton 10" driver and wondering if I could pair it with the T6 without a problem?

I have no idea. I've not had any experience with integrating multiple, non-identical subs. I do know that the T-6 has a relatively benign acoustic phase, so it is pretty easy to work with. The plot below was measured at 1W/1M in a groundplane setting (the glitch at 60 Hz is interference, still working on the solution to that).



I've never taken the time to build and measure a TT, so I have no idea what that phase curve looks like.
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post #83 of 142
12/30/11 at 6:28pm
Nice looking design Mike.

And great to see you post a tapped horn that is real!

One with gain.

Mark
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post #84 of 142
12/30/11 at 8:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by emax View Post

lilmike, you're pretty quick with sketchup! That I'm still learning. (Folding is excellent practice!) I toiled for a couple months trying to fold already-modeled/built horns into a triangular shape that would stack into this same corner, with no joy.

Why?

Edit:
Why build triangles you can stack almost any shape efficiently in a corner.
LL
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post #85 of 142
12/30/11 at 10:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Düsentrieb View Post

Lilmike, thank you very much for this wonderful construction. Very nice folding and simulated behaviour for my IMG 8" drivers seem to be very good!
this evening I did some CAD-drawing. Might be I will let cut the parts on a laser-cutter and it will be easy just to "puzzle" the parts together. Just need some adds for the speaker-fixing, wire-exits...but that is for later

...and I added the first cutting-sample from corrugated material just to check the CAD-design....seems OK to start soon with wood, my living-room is waiting on it

Neat idea. Make sure that it is well-sealed when you assemble it. Leaks will kill the performance.
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post #86 of 142
2/9/12 at 4:37pm
I keep searching but can not find your pics of your T-6's in your house?

Do you have a link for them?

I believe you had two of them and a half wall on the left side of the pic....not sure.
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post #87 of 142
2/9/12 at 5:01pm
here is 4 t-6 with the apex jr super 8 woofer, I am running behind my AT screen. Two on each side with the mouths coupled. Now i am running them all laying down in a row, not stacked.

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post #88 of 142
3/8/12 at 11:12am
Lil Mike. I have the MCM 55-2421 8" Subwoofer. I havent seen anybody inquire about this driver. Will it work?

Thanks
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post #89 of 142
3/8/12 at 3:59pm
Thread Starter 
One of the 55-2421s does not look so good. A pair (in one 11.75" wide cabinet) looks lots better, but things get a bit snug and compression is a touch higher than I'd like. Unless you have them sitting on the shelf, there are better driver choices out there.
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post #90 of 142
3/10/12 at 3:45pm
and I finished my first one, second will follow.....good thing always need some time. With the "LEGO-system" assembling was like a kids game, very easy . What a pity it is so late now and I can't test on increased volume. Tomorrow is first testday
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