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Why the hatred for DLP? - Page 5

post #121 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbear View Post


You need to research more and stop listening to the guys at Best Buy. Mitsubishi announced that it will continue to develop DLPs for 2012 and beyond. They are even looking into the 3chip DLP versions.

Where did you read about the possibility of 3 Chip? I've been suggesting that numerous times on various threads. It would be a great move if true.

Lasers, 3 Chip, large screens...Good stuff for those of use who prefer the look of RP.
post #122 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Looks like you've been a big DLP expert since you bought one a month ago...

Wrong again.

I've owned a 61" Samsung DLP since 2006, I've had zero issues with it except for replacing the lamp. It's actually still in use today, 5 years later. Since then I updated to the Mitsubishi 73" and I researched the Mitsubishi BEFORE I bought.

I also researcged LCDs and Plasma's and made an educated decision to go with the DLP. Unlike you, I did not go and troll on LCD and Plasma threads & bash the other technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

By the way, DLP has indeed "fallen by the wayside." Despite your fervent, frequent protests about how incredibly inexpensive it is per inch of screen, none of the nation's largest TV dealers (Best Buy, Walmart, Target, Sam's, Sears) seem to carry any of the TVs in their stores.

When you made the above comment, it was game over. The minute you argued that DLP is "fallen by the wayside" because WalMart, Target and Sams Club doesn't carry them, you were arguing from the realm of insanity. NO self-respecting A/V person would consider those stores as the place to buy the best A/V gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Seriously, take a step back and try to be a little more level-headed.

I started this thread and titled it, "Why the hatred for DLPs?". You came on board and took the "con" side and argued for the hatred of DLPs. You made your case, and I thank you, but at this point in time your posts are becoming a broken record and irrational. We get it already, you dislike DLPs, actually we got your stance 15 posts ago, time to move on...
post #123 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

Where did you read about the possibility of 3 Chip? I've been suggesting that numerous times on various threads. It would be a great move if true.

Lasers, 3 Chip, large screens...Good stuff for those of use who prefer the look of RP.

I remember reading about Mitsubishi researching the 3Chip and its costs if implemented in home DLP technology.
post #124 of 371
Thread Starter 
Just 4 months ago Texas Instruments Inc. reclaimed the top spot in 2010 because of resurgent demand for the company's Digital Light Processing (DLP) chips. Texas Instruments in 2010 sold $793 million worth of MEMS, up an impressive 25% from $635 million in 2009.

The recovery in DLP chip sales will continue during the coming years, with revenue exceeding $1 billion in 2013, up from $790 million in 2010.


"Fallen by the wayside?"
Hardly. DLP is here to stay, both rear and front projection.


According to Mitsubishi:

"Virtually every manufacturer of projectors-whether for business, commercial, or home use-now features DLP™ technology in their product line up. Secondly, more than 2 million DLP™ projection systems have been shipped to more than 50 manufacturers since early 1996. Moreover, DLP™ technology and the products featuring it have been consistent award winners.

How reliable is DLP™ technology?

People question the reliability of DLP ™ technology because it relies on the rapid mechanical switching of thousands of microscopic mirrors. In fact, extensive testing has shown that DLP™ technology demonstrates a Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) in excess of 100,000 hours. In addition, real world experience from the over 2.5 million systems based on DLP™ technology that have been installed since early 1996 confirms its very high reliability.
post #125 of 371
mitts is invested in its dlp megawall advertising/control room display system but they are working on thin bezel lcd modules and are already selling them .

as for TI mems sales do those numbers include fiber optics mems?
post #126 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbear View Post

When you made the above comment, it was game over. The minute you argued that DLP is "fallen by the wayside" because WalMart, Target and Sams Club doesn't carry them, you were arguing from the realm of insanity. NO self-respecting A/V person would consider those stores as the place to buy the best A/V gear.

DLP has fallen by the wayside because it has gone from ~65% marketshare to ~5% marketshare. They are no longer sold in virtually all B&M stores because sales have dropped off a cliff in the past 5-6 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbear View Post

I started this thread and titled it, "Why the hatred for DLPs?". You came on board and took the "con" side and argued for the hatred of DLPs. You made your case, and I thank you, but at this point in time your posts are becoming a broken record and irrational. We get it already, you dislike DLPs, actually we got your stance 15 posts ago, time to move on...

I would have actually moved on had you not told me I was wrong about everything I said and then insulted me over and over.

As for your other post, DLP is still popular in projectors, absolutely. It's probably the hands-down best projector technology. But front projection and rear projection are two different things, and most people would probably choose a 130" plasma over a 130" screen + front projector if the convenience factor and cost were identical.

Everything is a compromise. DLP RP gives you a lot of screen per dollar, and has excellent measurable PQ. But you can't get around the imposing size of the box compared to a panel, and you can't get around the fact that you are projecting an image through the rear of a screen.
post #127 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

DLP has fallen by the wayside because it has gone from ~65% marketshare to ~5% marketshare. They are no longer sold in virtually all B&M stores because sales have dropped off a cliff in the past 5-6 years.



I would have actually moved on had you not told me I was wrong about everything I said and then insulted me over and over.

As for your other post, DLP is still popular in projectors, absolutely. It's probably the hands-down best projector technology. But front projection and rear projection are two different things, and most people would probably choose a 130" plasma over a 130" screen + front projector if the convenience factor and cost were identical.

Everything is a compromise. DLP RP gives you a lot of screen per dollar, and has excellent measurable PQ. But you can't get around the imposing size of the box compared to a panel, and you can't get around the fact that you are projecting an image through the rear of a screen.

I can agree with alot of this, but again, I feel the drop off is due more to marketing and public ignorance than any great inferiority in the tech. I could make a similar case for the dominance of Bose in the marketplace, would you really want to argue on the Bose side as to why they are so popular; is it because their speakers are great performers?? No, they sell small size and "great" performance, all of us on AVS know better regarding the performance and their prices are akin to highway robbery.

I am not saying LCD and Plasma are not good performers; I own both. I do find it funny that when we are talking about a 73+" screen, if you have the room for such a big screen in the first place, why would anyone in their right mind dish out an extra 10K to save about 15" of depth? Its too bad these big box stores herd people looking for the big screen experience to overpriced plasmas and LCD (overpriced at the larger sizes) and then pawn them off with some overpriced Bose to go with it.
post #128 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbear View Post

I remember reading about Mitsubishi researching the 3Chip and its costs if implemented in home DLP technology.

For Front Projection or Rear Projection?

Regarding the rising demand for DLP, a good part of that is for 3 chip front projection, including commercial, theatrical use.

Something that some on this thread repeatedly overlook is that for many projection, whether front or rear, is easier on the eyes and more cinematic. When we go to the movies we see projected images, we don't see fixed pixels.
The challenge in RP is mostly one of geometry, because the light path is dependent on reflection and electronic correction.

But the point is that not everyone feels that flat panel looks better than RP. If we lived in a world where people are tolerant of the fact that people see and experience things differently we could avoid a lot of stridency in our discourse.
post #129 of 371
ok all, for the last 3 months i have been looking for a bigger tv, and i didnt even consider DLP. funny thing too as i was laying in the hospital in june i was watching shopNBC and they had a mit 73" on the show and i scoffed at at, even telling my girlfriend that the tv sucked. so after searching around i decided to buy a 60" 2D LG plasma based on price and as i dont like LCD. i was ready to pull the trigger, but one night a couple weeks ago as i was laying in bed i thought hey ill look on AVS at the RP thread just for the hell of it. long story short i ordered the 65738 for the same price as the LG.

See i too was ignorant about DLP. i followed the technology years ago and wrote it off at the time because of the RBE, price and other things .. and since then have owned 2 plasmas and 3 Lcd's. i have heard nothing about DLP in that time and didnt notice them online or in stores. on amazon they arent even featured at all.

I am nervous about the problems i have read, like geometry, boards needing replaced etc.. also i have not seen one in person, ive had 2 crt rp's so i know what to expect it that regard, but i do not know if i will see the RBE.

anyway yes the hype and marketing got me on the thin screen wagon, and i think maybe mits needs to better job at that.
post #130 of 371
DLP Summary:

PQ - Excellent
Screen Size - Best available
Cost - Excellent
Screen Uniformity - Excellent
Vertical Viewing Angle - Limited, best with eyes at center of screen
Horizantal Viewing Angle - Excellent
Reliability - Poor/Fair Many moving parts
Market Choice - Excellent, as long as you choose Mitsubishi
3D Compatibility - Excellent
post #131 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

but they are working on thin bezel lcd modules and are already selling them .

Wrong.. http://hothardware.com/News/Mitsubis...rger-DLP-Sets/

Quote:


but it'll leave the highly competitive LCD business to the others

Old news to boot.
post #132 of 371
Quote:


Reliability - Poor/Fair Many moving parts

One color wheel qualifies for "many moving parts"??

Lets' not counts fans either since many devices have had them.
post #133 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark62 View Post

See i too was ignorant about DLP. i followed the technology years ago and wrote it off at the time because of the RBE, price and other things .. and since then have owned 2 plasmas and 3 Lcd's. i have heard nothing about DLP in that time and didnt notice them online or in stores. on amazon they arent even featured at all.

That happens to a lot of people. Most people I talk to (non A/V gurus) will tell me they never heard of DLP, they don't even know what it is. Yet when they see one in person and see the picture size and picture clarity and I tell them the price, they can't believe it.

"Thin is in", so goes the fashion statement of TVs. People are being fed fashion over substance. Again, I have nothing against LCDs or Plasma, I own an LCD also. They have their place but when it comes to largest screen size, one of the best pictures, best 3D technology, bang for buck, DLPs rule.
post #134 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

One color wheel qualifies for "many moving parts"??

Lets' not counts fans either since many devices have had them.

I agree. Computers utilize moving parts such as hard drives, CD-ROM/DVD drives, cooling fans.
post #135 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matman1970 View Post

I can agree with alot of this, but again, I feel the drop off is due more to marketing and public ignorance than any great inferiority in the tech.

That pretty much sums it up. DLP is not bad tech, actually it is very good tech at a very good low price. Unfortunately ignorance and marketing can hurt such products. Also the spread of misinformation by those with an anti-DLP agenda adds to the ignorance.
post #136 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbear View Post


That pretty much sums it up. DLP is not bad tech, actually it is very good tech at a very good low price. Unfortunately ignorance and marketing can hurt such products. Also the spread of misinformation by those with an anti-DLP agenda adds to the ignorance.

There are reasons other than those you listed.
post #137 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRaven72 View Post

Wrong.. http://hothardware.com/News/Mitsubis...rger-DLP-Sets/



Old news to boot.

I didnt say tv now did I?wow look at all those lcds.........
http://www.mitsubishi-megaview.com/p...at_panels.html
but really how did you get "they arnt makin tvs any more its old news" out of this.....
Quote:


mitts is invested in its dlp megawall advertising/control room display system but they are working on thin bezel lcd modules and are already selling them
post #138 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

One color wheel qualifies for "many moving parts"??

Lets' not counts fans either since many devices have had them.

ok let count 100s of thousands of moving mirrors
post #139 of 371
Hmm on the Bose part....

Are you guys telling me the Monster cables that the big box stores try to sell me are NOT worth the money and are NOT the best cable built??

Is that what you are trying to tell me? :O
post #140 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by aydu View Post

DLP Summary:

Reliability - Poor/Fair Many moving parts

Oddly it was the DMD board that failed first in both of my Samsung DLPs- luckily at least one failed under warranty and is still working 4 years later.
post #141 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonDotCom View Post

Oddly it was the DMD board that failed first in both of my Samsung DLPs- luckily at least one failed under warranty and is still working 4 years later.

The DMD board contains the chip with the moving mirrors. As I've learned, moving stuff in a tv is not good for long term reliability.

Just got a new light engine in my DLP due to bad DMD chip causing white dots. New one should hold up for sometime.

Love the pq when the lamp lights and all the parts move like they should.
post #142 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbear View Post

That pretty much sums it up. DLP is not bad tech, actually it is very good tech at a very good low price. Unfortunately ignorance and marketing can hurt such products. Also the spread of misinformation by those with an anti-DLP agenda adds to the ignorance.

The rainbow effect, SDE and SSE are some of the reasons why people dislike DLP's.
post #143 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

The rainbow effect, SDE and SSE are some of the reasons why people dislike DLP's.

And with all the 70's out and Sharp's 80 out & discounted, it just a short time frame until dlp & laservuue are R.I.P
post #144 of 371
Sharp? As in "From sharp minds come sharp products? LOL! Good luck with that.
post #145 of 371
Quote:


ok let count 100s of thousands of moving mirrors

Aren't you forgetting all those moving electrons?? Lets add that to the lame list.

A single color wheel, surely by any decent level of intelligence, is not considered "many moving parts" by a rational individual.
post #146 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Aren't you forgetting all those moving electrons?? Lets add that to the lame list.

A single color wheel, surely by any decent level of intelligence, is not considered "many moving parts" by a rational individual.

Many compared to what?

Newer technologies have no internal moving parts.

As the self proclaimed definer of "rational", wouldn't a 100% increase in moving parts be considered significant?

I think the point made in this thread is that DLP technology had/has the advantage of giving you the biggest screen size at the lowest per inch initial cost.

The downsides are that the sets have a consumable lamp, that adds to the cost of ownership over time. Some lamps have proven to be short lived, making the sets operating cost much higher than anticipated.

The internals of the sets also proved less that stellar, from a reliability standpoint. Light engines, ballasts, color wheels, and DMD chips fail regularly, and repair costs are high.

In the latter versions of DLP sets, manufacturers cut costs by putting many (if not all) of the above components on one module in the set. If anything went south, the repair costs often exceeded the price of the set.

DLP sets proved the old saying that "the cheap comes out expensive", making them of questionable value when shopping.

With the number of manufacturers down to 1, even the most ardent DLP supporter would have to assess this as something other than a fast growing market.
post #147 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by aydu View Post

With the number of manufacturers down to 1, even the most ardent DLP supporter would have to assess this as something other than a fast growing market.

Don't let Lbear hear you say that

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=118
post #148 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by aydu View Post

Many compared to what?

Newer technologies have no internal moving parts.

As the self proclaimed definer of "rational", wouldn't a 100% increase in moving parts be considered significant?

I think the point made in this thread is that DLP technology had/has the advantage of giving you the biggest screen size at the lowest per inch initial cost.

The downsides are that the sets have a consumable lamp, that adds to the cost of ownership over time. Some lamps have proven to be short lived, making the sets operating cost much higher than anticipated.

The internals of the sets also proved less that stellar, from a reliability standpoint. Light engines, ballasts, color wheels, and DMD chips fail regularly, and repair costs are high.

In the latter versions of DLP sets, manufacturers cut costs by putting many (if not all) of the above components on one module in the set. If anything went south, the repair costs often exceeded the price of the set.

DLP sets proved the old saying that "the cheap comes out expensive", making them of questionable value when shopping.

With the number of manufacturers down to 1, even the most ardent DLP supporter would have to assess this as something other than a fast growing market.

I got 3700 hours out of my last lamp. It was still workng fine but the set had begun to dim noticebaly. $99 from Amazon overniht with Prime and 5 minutes to put it.

Cheap does not come out expensive when there is not an alternative. 2 years ago. I paid $2600 for my 82"... and not only was it cheap it had high value as the only similar sized set at the time was the Panason 84" Plasma bringing $20k if you bought it right and the power usage and heat are huge issues.

The question going forward is how will Mits price a set like the 82' and 92" displays in the face of the 80" Sharp. The non-elite Sharps have been badly criticized for lots of problems related to their backlighting, still with a $4K price on the 80". Mits is going to have to look at is value proposition. You can find the 92" Mits for $4500 or there abouts. Unfortunately the clear screen is a blessing and a curse. It produces a dramatically better image in the right lighting situation, but that is not the typical living room or den.

I have a 2009 82" and after a lamp replacement and a fresh calibration, it is simply georgeous. I do my own calibraions. In fact for reasons I haven't figured out, perhaps the new lamp is from a different lot and is better. The sets makes a boatload more light than it ever did with the previdous lamp.

The financing was free, it is paidoff now but I could have stretched it out another 14 months without interest. The value proposition has been phenomenal. I tend to get upgraditis, and the question for me is how good is the value proposition on the 92". Because of the clear screen I am not sure it could work in my room without careful reworking of my lighting. These huge DLPs are fairly fussy about vertical viewing angle so it will require a very short stand. At $3k on the street the 92" would be a good value proposition for me. $4500 meh... at MSRP forget about it.
post #149 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I got 3700 hours out of my last lamp. It was still workng fine but the set had begun to dim noticebaly. $99 from Amazon overniht with Prime and 5 minutes to put it.

Cheap does not come out expensive when there is not an alternative. 2 years ago. I paid $2600 for my 82"... and not only was it cheap it had high value as the only similar sized set at the time was the Panason 84" Plasma bringing $20k if you bought it right and the power usage and heat are huge issues.

The question going forward is how will Mits price a set like the 82' and 92" displays in the face of the 80" Sharp. The non-elite Sharps have been badly criticized for lots of problems related to their backlighting, still with a $4K price on the 80". Mits is going to have to look at is value proposition. You can find the 92" Mits for $4500 or there abouts. Unfortunately the clear screen is a blessing and a curse. It produces a dramatically better image in the right lighting situation, but that is not the typical living room or den.

I have a 2009 82" and after a lamp replacement and a fresh calibration, it is simply georgeous. I do my own calibraions. In fact for reasons I haven't figured out, perhaps the new lamp is from a different lot and is better. The sets makes a boatload more light than it ever did with the previdous lamp.

The financing was free, it is paidoff now but I could have stretched it out another 14 months without interest. The value proposition has been phenomenal. I tend to get upgraditis, and the question for me is how good is the value proposition on the 92". Because of the clear screen I am not sure it could work in my room without careful reworking of my lighting. These huge DLPs are fairly fussy about vertical viewing angle so it will require a very short stand. At $3k on the street the 92" would be a good value proposition for me. $4500 meh... at MSRP forget about it.

Well said. The day they can produce a great picture 73"+ plasma for $1,200 or a 82" plasma for $1,800, then we can talk but until then, the DLP is still the best bang for buck when it comes to 73"+ sets.

When it comes to screen size for home theater rooms, bigger is always better, especially for 3D content. If I can get a 73" DLP 3D TV for $1,200 or pay $4,000 for a 73" plasma, it's a no brainer, the DLP wins.

In a home theater setting, I have tons of A/V gear that needs to be stored somewhere, so a stand or rack is mandatory. Therefore mounting a TV on a wall is not a necessity because I need a stand/rack anyway, so the TV can sit on the stand.

Three or more years from now if plasma comes down in price to where a 73"+ plasma is priced at the same level as a 73" DLP, then I will reconsider. Until then, there is no contest when it comes to large screen bang for buck, DLP wins.
post #150 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbear View Post

DLP is still the best bang for buck when it comes to 73"+ sets.

If I can get a 73" DLP 3D TV for $1,200 or pay $4,000 for a 73" plasma, it's a no brainer, the DLP wins.

if plasma comes down in price

You realize what that sounds like, right?
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