or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Rear Projection Units › Why the hatred for DLP?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Why the hatred for DLP? - Page 7

post #181 of 377
It was a stupid decision.... except it wasn't stupid. DLP sales were dropping with no prospects of going back up. I doubt if they were making much if any ROI on the tech.

In fact I think dumping DLP was a very wise, forward-looking, smart decision. Having engineers working on DLP technology consumes money and manpower for something that wasn't going anywhere.
post #182 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

It was a stupid decision.... except it wasn't stupid. DLP sales were dropping with no prospects of going back up. I doubt if they were making much if any ROI on the tech.

In fact I think dumping DLP was a very wise, forward-looking, smart decision. Having engineers working on DLP technology consumes money and manpower for something that wasn't going anywhere.

Gee they are NOT making any ROI on HDTVs of any kind these days. Maybe Sammy did not make the correct decision. One thing about DLP it did not require huge captial investments to keep the technology fresh. Easy to leverage whatever TI and the projector boys are doing. No mulitbillion dollar investments in new plant and equipment.


I have my personal theory that it was the retailers who did not want Rear Projectors.. They take up space and they were cheap. That is the enenmy of sales per sq ft which is what retailers live and die by.
post #183 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

It wouldn't of been so bad if those chips would of been offered as a cheaper offering, leaving the 'full' chip version as the step up. I'm sure most here would of not thought twice which way to go. It was nothing short of pure stupidly! Period!.
They invested in alot of additional R&D and blew it off. Major mistake!

One thing you should be aware of, the screen itself is a far bigger impact on sharpness and image quality than whether the chip is wobulated. Look at a clear screen Mits. The sharpness is simply amazing. In the wrong room the reflective screen is problematic but seeing it in proper conditions you find the wobulated chip is not an issue of any kind for 2D.. I am not a big advocate of checkerboard... but for 2D wobulation does not hinder resolution in any meaningful way. Even at 92" the WD-92840 is by far the sharpest rear projector DLP I have ever seen. I own several DLP RPs including Sammy's
post #184 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

Gee they are NOT making any ROI on HDTVs of any kind these days. Maybe Sammy did not make the correct decision. One thing about DLP it did not require huge captial investments to keep the technology fresh. Easy to leverage whatever TI and the projector boys are doing. No mulitbillion dollar investments in new plant and equipment.

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure Samsung didn't kill off their DLP line because it was making them lots of money.
post #185 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure Samsung didn't kill off their DLP line because it was making them lots of money.

Pretty sure their LCDs are not making them any money either. In fact the display business is a bitter dog fight and it takes huges amounts of capital investment to continue to provide a competitve LCD product if you intend to build in house. I don't doubt the DLP wasn't making Samsung any money but it probably wasn't costing much from an investment perspective either.

Huge capitaL outlays have been and will have to be made to continue to maintain market share in the LCD display space and virtually no one is making any money there. Now Sharp has staked out the larger sizes and if there is any ROI to be made it it will be in the larger LCD space... My point is that is a tough business and huge capital investments does not assure ROI. Not making any money on a display technology is probably not the reason that you choose to abandon a technology. If that was the case Samsung would abandon LCD and Plasma yesterday. It is more about what you consider your core product and market and how badly you are willing to fight to stay competitive. Clearly you hope to see ROI, but that may just be for the last man standing.
post #186 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

Pretty sure their LCDs are not making them any money either.

I see no reason to believe that's true. Samsung makes a rather complete line of LCD products, from TVs and computer monitors to small displays and OEM products.

I doubt if they would maintain this complete line of LCDs if they thought it was going nowhere and not making them money.

Fact is that LCD is a market orders of magnitude larger than DLP. It's growing and it's got a long, bright future. DLP was fading away to nothing in the marketplace. Samsung got out while the getting was good.

There was and is little to no money to be made in DLP RPTVs.
post #187 of 377
If they were actually still in stores i would go in and give the DLPs a big hug. I will never forget that 60'' back in the day, on the floor at the back of Fry's all neglected and on clearance for $600 *tear* I should have you brought you home old girl
But seriously, remember when people had BIG screen TVs? That's what you always wanted as a kid and they were BIG as in girthy...so it always seemed right to me for the TV to have a little "meat on the bone" ya dig? Then i come to find they are the value King it's a no brainer (though i do wish the blacks were a bit better but what are ya gonna do....) Right now i'm kinda hoping our 65'' 09' dies on us because i have heard of people getting newer and even larger sets on warranty

I'm gonna head on over and see if Fry's still carry them, maybe play with the remote a bit, isn't it funny how they show SD content on them and turn down the picture?? While LCD in torch mode gets the HD feed.

Ok so how much do those new 80'' LCDs go for? I saw the commercial and there people going on around here about how "more affordable" they have become...........I'll bet you a 6-pack it's more than my $4000 Honda...

If it actually did cost $600 to fix one of our DLPs i would much rather go that route than drop $1200 on a tiny 55'' TV, lol what is this 2005?
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I have 17 to 21 inch deep components and with speakers 3 feet out in to the room ascetically a stand works better for me. I find the gear I have pleasing to look at and I don't want to tuck away in a closet. If this where a dedicated (Front projector) space and the gear chosen for that purpose it would not be seen. But my space is 2 channel, multi and screening room all in one space, and has been pulled off sucessfully partly because of DLP!

THIS! Your components already stick out! So it's funny that the guy with a CC sticking out of the wall is complaining about a TV "protruding" out? If anything it makes it all look better. Also since when is it wrong to have a screen "take up most of my vision"? If money was no object and still had to choose i would take DLP all over again, the picture is simply the most "natural" looking and "theater" like after seeing other peoples LCDs and our plasma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post


Here's a question. If a 73" Panasonic plasma and 73" DLP were the same price, would you still automatically get the DLP? Be honest.

Perfect! I was looking for this one! Lamps are an additional cost, right? What about the additional cost from the juice that a plasma pulls? Or all the heat it dumps into your room? Nobody is talking about that eh?

Guys good headphones have gone "by the way side" ....err actually they were never "in", so i'm just gonna go down to my local Best Buy and pick up a pair of Beats Studios because they are the finest you can get. And throw in a Bose Lifestyle system for Christmas.

And no it isn't the best, from what i've seen that is supposed to be CRT Projectors, maybe i can try to find one at my local Sears or Walmart? All 200 pounds of it.
post #188 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

I see no reason to believe that's true. Samsung makes a rather complete line of LCD products, from TVs and computer monitors to small displays and OEM products.

I doubt if they would maintain this complete line of LCDs if they thought it was going nowhere and not making them money.

Fact is that LCD is a market orders of magnitude larger than DLP. It's growing and it's got a long, bright future. DLP was fading away to nothing in the marketplace. Samsung got out while the getting was good.

There was and is little to no money to be made in DLP RPTVs.

I suggest you read about the industry from the financial side. It is a giant financial disaster for Panasonic, Son and, Samsung... Sharp and LG not so much. But even the last two are having to come up with every trick in the book to make money on LCDS.. one of the strategies now is to take the old plants that can't make huges panels and turn them into factories for mobile glass. Panasonic is going into large LCD panels, loosing their but on plasmas.. volume and pricing problems. Samsung would probably be in worse shape on panels if they were supplying their own mobile business.
post #189 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I suggest you read about the industry from the financial side. It is a giant financial disaster for Panasonic, Son and, Samsung... Sharp and LG not so much. But even the last two are having to come up with every trick in the book to make money on LCDS.. one of the strategies now is to take the old plants that can't make huges panels and turn them into factories for mobile glass. Panasonic is going into large LCD panels, loosing their but on plasmas.. volume and pricing problems. Samsung would probably be in worse shape on panels if they were supplying their own mobile business.

Link?
post #190 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Link?

Lazy?

So jonny-san, I see you're still trolling the DLP threads eh?
post #191 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich3fan View Post

Lazy?

So jonny-san, I see you're still trolling the DLP threads eh?

I'm not trolling, I'm asking for information about Samsung's LCD division, and you're not helping anything.
post #192 of 377
Have had a 67 inch Samsung DLP since 2007. It's been a great TV. Can see going bigger, but it would be hard to go smaller for HD. Also like how DLP hides the pixel structure...

I guess if I had to buy today, it would be the 65" Panasonic plasma, but it's hard to get excited enough about display tech these days. To have had a bigger set or to have seen what a display can do before being discontinued (i.e., CRT, Kuro), it's really just new tech (e.g., OLED) or maybe front projection that seems interesting to me now....
post #193 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

There was and is little to no money to be made in DLP RPTVs.

So I bet you expect Mitsubishi to soon get out of the DLP HDTV business, including its laser sets.
post #194 of 377
I see Jonny is still trolling this thread under the guise of calmly listing reasons why others might not prefer DLP, but it's obvious he's really just SPEWING HATRED & spreading misinformation.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Really?

Have you read my posts here? I don't hate DLP. I personally don't like it, for a few reasons, and I tried to voice those reasons here. You and others have taken any criticism of DLP, no matter how valid or factual, and read it as a vicious attack on your favorite technology.

Nice try.

It's one thing for DLP fans to recognize its shortcomings, because we understand the extent to which they have been exaggerated & still approve of the technology. You on the other hand are a known hater, and the thread title is "why the hatred?", so if you're in this thread answering that question with reasons why you don't like DLP, then WHY ARE YOU IN THIS THREAD?! WHY ARE YOU LOOKING IN THE REAR PROJECTION SUBFORUM IN THE FIRST PLACE?! STOP HATING!
post #195 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

Nice try.

It's one thing for DLP fans to recognize its shortcomings, because we understand the extent to which they have been exaggerated & still approve of the technology. You on the other hand are a known hater, and the thread title is "why the hatred?", so if you're in this thread answering that question with reasons why you don't like DLP, then WHY ARE YOU IN THIS THREAD?! WHY ARE YOU LOOKING IN THE REAR PROJECTION SUBFORUM IN THE FIRST PLACE?! STOP HATING!

I honestly don't understand. You start a thread asking "why the hate?" and you take issue with someone giving reasons?

I am in this thread to literally answer the question in the OP.
post #196 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich3fan View Post

Did someone request this thread to be stuck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich3fan View Post

[snip] ...And I'd still like an answer to my question (preferably from one of the moderators listed at the bottom of this sub-forum) as to why this thread was stuck.

Hmmmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

[snip] ...Excellent idea for a thread, lets make it a 'sticky'.

I for one, am glad for the sticky. It's sort of a one-stop shop for all the old wives tales and outdated comparisons to be addressed.
post #197 of 377
I had this thread made a sticky in the LCD sub forum, but a few of the 'big business can never do anything wrong' whiners got it unstuck and locked;

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1308331

Gotta love anyone who sticks up for corporate crooks.
post #198 of 377
I've had the Pioneer 141FD for three years. I just purchased the Mitsubishi and the picture, in my opinion, is better from the Mits.... side-by-side. It has more pop and is just a more immersive picture.

I have been following the thin-is-in, black level crap for years. The most important measuring device relating to picture is still the human eye. No opinion here is going to change what I've seen with my own eyes.

I would have never imagined myself a DLP owner, but I took a risk, and boy did it pay off!
post #199 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

I had this thread made a sticky in the LCD sub forum, but a few of the 'big business can never do anything wrong' whiners got it unstuck and locked;

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1308331

Gotta love anyone who sticks up for corporate crooks.

Without rehashing that other thread, it was really a bunch of pedantic whining. The people who do understand or care about the technology already know what the marketing terms actually mean, and the people who don't understand... well, they don't understand anyway. It has nothing to do with anyone sticking up for corporate crooks.
post #200 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannus View Post

I've had the Pioneer 141FD for three years. I just purchased the Mitsubishi and the picture, in my opinion, is better from the Mits.... side-by-side. It has more pop and is just a more immersive picture.

I have been following the thin-is-in, black level crap for years. The most important measuring device relating to picture is still the human eye. No opinion here is going to change what I've seen with my own eyes.

I would have never imagined myself a DLP owner, but I took a risk, and boy did it pay off!

How is the off angle viewing? That seems to be one of the weakness of dlp (although I've heard the LV is a little better in that regard).

Also, how does it do in ambient light? Another weakness of rptv is a tendency for the picture to "wash out" with any background light. But the brightness of the laser light source may make that a non-issue also.

Impressive to hear that the LV can hold it's own against a Kuro. Thanks for the feedback.
post #201 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkelecy View Post

How is the off angle viewing? That seems to be one of the weakness of dlp (although I've heard the LV is a little better in that regard).

Also, how does it do in ambient light? Another weakness of rptv is a tendency for the picture to "wash out" with any background light. But the brightness of the laser light source may make that a non-issue also.

Impressive to hear that the LV can hold it's own against a Kuro. Thanks for the feedback.



Laservue unboxing, in ambient light (with off-angle views starting at 1:40).





82" DLP in ambient light with off-angle views.


post #202 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

Laservue unboxing, in ambient light (with off-angle views starting at 1:40).





82" DLP in ambient light with off-angle views.




Well, I have to admit the LV looks pretty good in the video. I have a 73840 so I'm well aware of how it does. It's off-angle PQ is actually pretty decent also, but still noticeably dimmer than head on. I wish there was someplace local that carried the LV, as I would love to see it in person. Not sure why it's so rare. You would think some place like Best Buy would have it since they carry the more expensive Sharp Elite. Go figure.
post #203 of 377
My Sony SXRD is nearing demotion to the basement TV role.

I am aware of the current limited DLP offerings. Really interested in _first-hand opinions_ concerning the latest Mitsubishi lineup (non-LaserVue).

Most concerned about potential rainbow effect. How prominent is dithering, silk screen effect, geometry issues and stray light on a completely dark screen? Viewing angles and cabinet thickness are total non-issues for me. I hang portraits, paintings and trinkets on my walls, not TVs.

Please do not recommend any plasma or direct view LCD. I do not like them.

I dislike plasma glossy screen glare, intense heat emission, power inefficiency, screen door effect, fragility, potential clay face, burn-in risk and the throw away nature of the technology.

Even the latest direct view LCDs still have motion blur issues, stuck pixels, flashlights and surreal image rendition. Still waiting for that pixel response rate to drop several milliseconds further before I'll even consider them.

Thanks in advance.
post #204 of 377
I guess the question is, why are you not considering the 75 inch Laservue, as it has, in my opinion, the best image of any of the DLPs, with wide viewing angles?

I'm pretty sure you can get some good prices around the holidays, from authorized Mits dealers.

I haven't seen the 73840, but other than the LV my favorite DLP was the 73838. Neither that set nor the Laservue lack anything in light output.

I wish the 92840 was brighter.

I also have not cared for any flat panels, including the newest local dimming LCD sets, as they seem to induce eye fatigue.
post #205 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

I guess the question is, why are you not considering the 75 inch Laservue, as it has, in my opinion, the best image of any of the DLPs, with wide viewing angles?

I'm pretty sure you can get some good prices around the holidays, from authorized Mits dealers.

Don't have the slightest doubt that the LaserVue lineup is impressive. However, I do fear in the long term reliability of the laser modules (especially in the post extended warranty period). I dislike purchasing warranty extensions for my electronics, but in the case of the LaserVue, it would be mandatory.

In the past I would splurge on all the latest and greatest tech (mostly Sony). I was an early adopter of SXRD. The rant will end here...but let's just say that a hard lesson has been learned through very negative early adopter experiences of a tech that was heavily touted.

In a DLP, the UHP lamp with it's strong UV emission is nothing to worry about (unlike SXRD/LCoS which have very delicate polarizing filters that get scorched over time). I just wish to play it safe with the mature UHP plus colorwheel design as long as rainbows are no longer much of an issue.

Quote:


I haven't seen the 73840, but other than the LV my favorite DLP was the 73838. Neither that set nor the Laservue lack anything in light output.

I wish the 92840 was brighter.

What you think of the WD-73C11? It's more of a base model but most reviews tend to be positive.

Quote:


I also have not cared for any flat panels, including the newest local dimming LCD sets, as they seem to induce eye fatigue.

Yes, the dimming feature should be completely disabled under proper calibration of LCDs regardless. What can't be improved enough (with current tech) is the motion blur problem. That is the #1 deal killer for me.
post #206 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by KewlK View Post

Don't have the slightest doubt that the LaserVue lineup is impressive. However, I do fear in the long term reliability of the laser modules (especially in the post extended warranty period). I dislike purchasing warranty extensions for my electronics, but in the case of the LaserVue, it would be mandatory...

...What you think of the WD-73C11? It's more of a base model but most reviews tend to be positive...

...Yes, the dimming feature should be completely disabled under proper calibration of LCDs regardless. What can't be improved enough (with current tech) is the motion blur problem. That is the #1 deal killer for me.

I think the Laser module is fairly mature, not radical tech at all. And there is an advantage to eliminating the color wheel...less moving parts. I would get an extended warranty, nevertheless. The upside is that the picture is really good, and LV has matured since its introduction, when to my eyes the LV offered no visual advantage to the bulb based units. Now I believe it's superior.

Haven't seen the model you mentioned, but I think 73-75 inches is the current sweet spot for DLP.

With regard to LCD and local dimming, once you cut that out you tend to lose the highly touted blacks. But I remain convinced there's something about LED backlit LCD panels that's hard on the eyes. Besides all the Mac notebook owners with problems, there are a good number of people out there who find LED backlighting visually tiring. It's probable that people with sensitive eyes would be the first to react to this, but that doesn't mean that it is particularly good for anyone.

If you go here, and read down a bit, you'll find somone in his 30's who has used all kinds of displays, and has problems with LED backlighting.
https://discussions.apple.com/thread...t=165&tstart=0

New tech, even if the industry rushes to it, is not always the best thing. The flat panels are impressive at first blush...razor sharp and luminous. The 80 inch non-Elite Sharp LCD wowed me and my girlfriend, but we both walked away google-eyed.
post #207 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

I think the Laser module is fairly mature, not radical tech at all. And there is an advantage to eliminating the color wheel...less moving parts. I would get an extended warranty, nevertheless. The upside is that the picture is really good, and LV has matured since its introduction, when to my eyes the LV offered no visual advantage to the bulb based units. Now I believe it's superior.

It is true that lasers, in general, have been used in various applications for decades now. Heck, laser light shows first began in the 70's. Still, this is a first use of high amplitude diode laser modules within TVs. I try to convince myself that there is no reason to drag my feet..but can't. Have always disliked the color wheel + motor drive mechanism myself, but they are cheap parts and simple to replace.

Quote:


Haven't seen the model you mentioned, but I think 73-75 inches is the current sweet spot for DLP.

Totally agree, bigger tends to be better. I would not want to go much past the 80" threshold due to noticeable lumen drop off at that scale.

Quote:


With regard to LCD and local dimming, once you cut that out you tend to lose the highly touted blacks.

You tend to lose contrast by doing so, only in a non light controlled room. Otherwise, it is a must for smooth and accurate picture reproduction. it's a give and take world in display tech. There are always trade offs unfortunately.

Quote:


But I remain convinced there's something about LED backlit LCD panels that's hard on the eyes. Besides all the Mac notebook owners with problems, there are a good number of people out there who find LED backlighting visually tiring. It's probable that people with sensitive eyes would be the first to react to this, but that doesn't mean that it is particularly good for anyone.

If you go here, and read down a bit, you'll find somone in his 30's who has used all kinds of displays, and has problems with LED backlighting.
https://discussions.apple.com/thread...t=165&tstart=0

Yes, many have attested to the phenomena. It remains somewhat of a mystery. I personally suspect that it is mostly a color temperature issue. LED backlit screens tend to be shifted much more to the blue spectrum (cool white). The human eye cannot focus as sharply on blue light, it actually scatters more within the eyeball.

Quote:


New tech, even if the industry rushes to it, is not always the best thing. The flat panels are impressive at first blush...razor sharp and luminous. The 80 inch non-Elite Sharp LCD wowed me and my girlfriend, but we both walked away google-eyed.

Ha ha, yes retina searing aren't they? That is not how reality looks. It's hilarious how surreal eye candy is becoming the visual preference of the masses. Torch mode is one thing, but these new direct views are taking it into such bizarro territory. No thank you.
post #208 of 377
I think local dimming has its effects, both in terms of black levels, and contrast. After all, ambient light from adjacent, lit LEDs cannot help but lighten blacks.

I just haven't been thrilled with any of the Mits DLPs using that 150/180 watt above 73 inches. It's a perfect match for that size, providing good luminance edge to edge.

I agree about the blue light coming from pseudo-white (coated blue) LEDs, but the Elites are RGB+Y LEDs, and still seem intense. I have the feeling that there are issues with Pulse Width Modulation, since that is how LEDs are raised or lowered in brightness, with flickering.

But honestly, if you look at the Laservue you'll see that it has a more profound picture than the bulb models, and the Laser optical engines are already beyond first generation. Still I'd get a warranty even if I went with a 73838, which I thought a great set. Haven't seen a 73840. Only the 82840, and 92840 with that same bulb.
post #209 of 377
I LOVE my DLP!!!
post #210 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeener71 View Post

I LOVE my DLP!!!

Make that plural for me, both of them.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Rear Projection Units
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Rear Projection Units › Why the hatred for DLP?