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Velodyne DD-18+

post #1 of 69
9/5/11 at 11:30am
Thread Starter 
I've been thinking of buying a DD-18+ for a long time. Any DD-18 Plus owners out there that can comment on how they like theirs? I'd like to hear your feedback, especially if you upgraded from a DD-18 and can explain the difference in performance.
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post #2 of 69
9/5/11 at 7:32pm
Thread Starter 
These reviews of the DD-18 Plus are very positive.


http://www.techradar.com/reviews/aud...-969866/review

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...subwoofer.html
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post #3 of 69
9/6/11 at 8:24am
Expensive. Too expensive when you can get better performance a lot cheaper.
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post #4 of 69
9/6/11 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpioli View Post

I've been thinking of buying a DD-18+ for a long time. Any DD-18 Plus owners out there that can comment on how they like theirs? I'd like to hear your feedback, especially if you upgraded from a DD-18 and can explain the difference in performance.

IMHO the first review is worthless.

The review by John Johnson is much better. You never could make the DD-18 sound bad and set-up was a big plus with its built-in 8 band EQ.

The DD-18 + adds output. The most telling measurment is the 110 db at 20 Hz and 2 meters, but Johnson refused to test for maximum output noting that there are reports of health issues when people are exposed to very high output levels.

I also could not find a basic frequency response curve in Johnson's tests.

Having said all that, I think the DD-18 + is a very fine subwoofer capable of substantial output. The new EQ seems more difficult to work with. Some people who buy this sub will have the dealer do the set-up. Otherwise it might take some practice and a good bit of time to get everything set-up properly.

As far as value, the Seaton Submersive HP and JTR Captivator are held in very high esteem around here, but they are not quite directly competitive.

Remember that most basically, you are getting increased output. Let's say between 10 and 15 db more than the DD-18. Do you need that extra output?
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post #5 of 69
9/6/11 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


Remember that most basically, you are getting increased output. Let's say between 10 and 15 db more than the DD-18. Do you need that extra output?

10-15db??? Are you sying that a DD18+ would have the output of 4 or 5 DD18's?
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post #6 of 69
9/6/11 at 9:04am
Also look at Funky Waves 18.0 Sub with the LMS driver and built in EQ

Good bang for the buck and the best SQ you will find...
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post #7 of 69
9/6/11 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post


10-15db??? Are you sying that a DD18+ would have the output of 4 or 5 DD18's?

Agree. The only way this would be possible is if the original had a 125 watt or so amp and the same driver or the new one has a more pro oriented driver with MUCH higher sensitivity and a MUCH MUCH higher bl.

As for the value, the offerings from jtr or seaton would be picked for me before this one. More cone area on the submersive and a ported design with a larger enclosure with greater power handling on the captivator. As for the eq, go the cheap route with REW and a bfd for less than $200 total or a bit more expensive option for less hands on experience. Either way with those options you will have better performance in output and most likely quality while saving a substantial amount of money.

If you look at the dd+ for what it is, it is a big driver in a smallish sealed box with eq and a medium sized amp by today's standards. Not seeing the value in something like that for $6000. Let me say that I don't believe it is or will be a bad subwoofer, you can just get more for less.
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post #8 of 69
9/6/11 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

10-15db??? Are you sying that a DD18+ would have the output of 4 or 5 DD18's?

Here are links to reviews of both the DD18 and DD18+ by the same person.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...03-part-2.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...r.html?start=3

He says the maximum output at 20hz was 103db for the DD18 and over 110db for the DD18+. The DD18+ also shows less distortion at all frequencies, but he does not show distortion for max output readings. If I had to guess, the DD18+ probably has a better driver with lower distortion and the servo has been changed to be less limiting allowing higher output. If the servo in the DD18 allowed more distortion, it would probably have much closer output to the DD18+.

Look at the distortion plots for max output. The servo in the DD18 is very limiting to output down low to keep distortion very low.





http://www.avtalk.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15243

If you are willing to go ID, I agree there are much better deals. Even if you could get the DD18+ for half of MSRP, you could still get 1 or 2 high quality ID subs, an external SUB EQ and measurement rig for cheaper.

-Mike
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post #9 of 69
9/6/11 at 9:34am
Thread Starter 
Someone is selling a used DD-18+ for a good price. It could be a even better price if a discount can be had.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....Plus-lastest-m
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post #10 of 69
9/6/11 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpioli View Post

Someone is selling a used DD-18+ for a good price. It could be a even better price if a discount can be had.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....Plus-lastest-m

That certainly makes it more attractive, but it's still hard to consider it even remotely to be a good value vs. something like a pair of Submersives for around the same price. Of course it is an elegant little package which I'm sure can hold it's own against something like a high-end Paradigm.
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post #11 of 69
9/6/11 at 9:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That certainly makes it more attractive, but it's still hard to consider it even remotely to be a good value vs. something like a pair of Submersives for around the same price. Of course it is an elegant little package which I'm sure can hold it's own against something like a high-end Paradigm.




If I can get a good deal, not only is it a great performing and looking subwoofer, but when I want to eventually sell it, the resale value should be good, which isn't something that can be said about all subwoofer brands.

I wonder how the DD-18 Plus would compete against the Paradigm Sub 25?
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post #12 of 69
9/6/11 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

10-15db??? Are you sying that a DD18+ would have the output of 4 or 5 DD18's?

Based on exactly what Johnson said:

"I could easily get 110 db at 20 Hz and 2 meters from this subwoofer, and that was as loud as I was prepared to test. Research suggests that intense low frequencies can affect internal body organs, so be judicious with that volume control."

If 110 db at 20 hz was easy it is possible that 113db coud be had and that would be 10 db over the 103 db he measured in the test of the original DD-18.
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post #13 of 69
9/6/11 at 10:41am
Seriously...6000$. Wow!!!
how can Velodyne expect to compete with HSU, SVS, Rythmik, and so on.
Would it not be smarter to spend 1/4 th of this in room acoustics instead
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post #14 of 69
9/6/11 at 10:49am
$4400 for a used DD18+ is alot of money and IMO its way overpriced to begin with. I totally agreee with Ironhead1230, much better deals can be had with ID brands.

For the price of that used DD18+ you could get:

2 Captivator 1000s http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-1000/
HSU ULS QuadDrive http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15quaddrive.html
4 VTF-15H http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html
2 SVS Ultras http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm
And although I can't find exact price the Danley DTS 10 is probably around that same price too.

I don't think the Velo is a bad sub or anything, I just think they price their subs to people who think the more something costs the better the performance. I mean this is the same company that wants $800 for a little 6.5" subwoofer thats only good for a computer setup. Come on $800 for a 6.5" woofer???!!!
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post #15 of 69
9/6/11 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaQBlogs View Post

Seriously...6000$. Wow!!!
how can Velodyne expect to compete with HSU, SVS, Rythmik, and so on.
Would it not be smarter to spend 1/4 th of this in room acoustics instead

Dude, there are people who can afford premium products from companies like Wilson, Lexicon, Theta, Aerial, B&W, Martin-Logan and many others. They usually hang out in the 20,000+ section of the Forum.

Velodyne makes much less expensive subwoofers in several different series, like the DSL-R.

The DD series is their premium line and is not meant to compete with Internet Direct subs. So asking how this particular Velodyne sub can expect to compete with Internet Direct subs is irrelevant. As the OP asked, how does the DD-18+ compete with premium models from Paradigm, like the Paradigm 25 would be a relevant question.
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post #16 of 69
9/6/11 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Based on exactly what Johnson said:

"I could easily get 110 db at 20 Hz and 2 meters from this subwoofer, and that was as loud as I was prepared to test. Research suggests that intense low frequencies can affect internal body organs, so be judicious with that volume control."

If 110 db at 20 hz was easy it is possible that 113db coud be had and that would be 10 db over the 103 db he measured in the test of the original DD-18.


So, basically he measured the DD+ to put out 7db more at 20hz. You are speculating the the DD+ might do 3db more. Meanwhile you are suggesting that the DD+ would have 10-15db greater output. Sorry, but we have left out any sort of concrete evidence here. I think I'll wait to see some reliable outdoor ground-plane testing before I will attribute that much advantage to the DD+ over the old DD.
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post #17 of 69
9/6/11 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

$4400 for a used DD18+ is alot of money and IMO its way overpriced to begin with. I totally agreee with Ironhead1230, much better deals can be had with ID brands.

For the price of that used DD18+ you could get:

2 Captivator 1000s http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-1000/
HSU ULS QuadDrive http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15quaddrive.html
4 VTF-15H http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html
2 SVS Ultras http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm
And although I can't find exact price the Danley DTS 10 is probably around that same price too.

I don't think the Velo is a bad sub or anything, I just think they price their subs to people who think the more something costs the better the performance. I mean this is the same company that wants $800 for a little 6.5" subwoofer thats only good for a computer setup. Come on $800 for a 6.5" woofer???!!!

Dude, there are less expensive series like the DSL-R. The DSL-R 15 tested well and one member just got one for ~$540 for a remote controlled 15 inch vented model.
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post #18 of 69
9/6/11 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

So, basically he measured the DD+ to put out 7db more at 20hz. You are speculating the the DD+ might do 3db more. Meanwhile you are suggesting that the DD+ would have 10-15db greater output. Sorry, but we have left out any sort of concrete evidence here. I think I'll wait to see some reliable outdoor ground-plane testing before I will attribute that much advantage to the DD+ over the old DD.

"Basically he measured the DD+ to put out 7 db more at 20 Hz."

No, he exactly chose to limit maximum output to an arbitrary 110 db and said that it achieved 110 db easily.

By all means wait till you see some reliable outdoor ground-plane testing before you attribute any more output to the DD+. Meanwhile it is really irrelevant to you as a Cap owner, as opposed to the OP who has a genuine interest in the DD+ and the funds to buy one.
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post #19 of 69
9/6/11 at 11:53am
You can add a pair of Triad Platinum Subs to that list.
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post #20 of 69
9/6/11 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

"Basically he measured the DD+ to put out 7 db more at 20 Hz."

No, he exactly chose to limit maximum output to an arbitrary 110 db and said that it achieved 110 db easily.

By all means wait till you see some reliable outdoor ground-plane testing before you attribute any more output to the DD+. Meanwhile it is really irrelevant to you as a Cap owner, as opposed to the OP who has a genuine interest in the DD+ and the funds to buy one.

You are correct. It is indeed irrelevent to me. I'm just bored sometimes.
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post #21 of 69
9/6/11 at 1:19pm
mojomike

Comparing retail prices.

1 Velodyne DD18+ = 6K + 600 tax = ~$6,600

or

4 JTR Captivators wired for 2ohm each = 6K + 2 Behringer EP4000 amps = ~$6,600


ha...funny.

DTS 10's are still only about $1200 for the kit if I recall correctly. But if someone considered the JTR Captivator and the DD18+ apples and oranges, then the DTS-10 is not even a fruit --- completely different from a setup and cosmetic perspective!!!!!!
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post #22 of 69
9/6/11 at 1:45pm
4 Captivators could literally cause house damage in my opinion. Just one frightens me sometimes.
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post #23 of 69
9/6/11 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

mojomike

Comparing retail prices.

1 Velodyne DD18+ = 6K + 600 tax = ~$6,600

or

4 JTR Captivators wired for 2ohm each = 6K + 2 Behringer EP4000 amps = ~$6,600


ha...funny.

DTS 10's are still only about $1200 for the kit if I recall correctly. But if someone considered the JTR Captivator and the DD18+ apples and oranges, then the DTS-10 is not even a fruit --- completely different from a setup and cosmetic perspective!!!!!!

Dude, the OP has been a member of the Forum for 6 years and has nearly 700 posts. He is well aware of Internet Direct shopping and that is not where his interest lies. Some people can afford premium products like Velodyne, Paradigm, Wilson, Theta, Lexicon, Aerial and many other high-end products.

Eventually people will recognize that this particular OP is interested in more than bang for the buck. I feel for the guy as every time he brings up premium B&M products he mostly gets people who want to show him how much more woofage he can get for his money.

We have some members who want and are willing to spend the money for premium products. One of them writes for Stereophile.

Those people are interested in things like the B&W 802 speaker and not speakers from Chase Home Theater.

Those of us who read about your shootout know that you had quite the journey from your Infinity subs, your Jamo subs, your SVS subs, your Yamaha sub and now your pair of Captivators. And, if you think that you got the most bang for the buck, their are those who are into DIY and/or IB who would argue that they can DIY Cap performance for less money. So, it is all relative.

I like ID as much as the next guy, but if the OP has a burning desire for the DD-18+ and can afford it, telling him that ID is cheaper doesn't begin to address his questions.
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post #24 of 69
9/6/11 at 2:45pm
spyboy,

Take it easy...I didn't say anything negative about the Velodyne at all, though I do admit I actually smiled...and then winced in pain...at the idea of four Captivators.

mojo is right, four of them would wreck a house...
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post #25 of 69
9/6/11 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Dude, the OP has been a member of the Forum for 6 years and has nearly 700 posts. He is well aware of Internet Direct shopping and that is not where his interest lies. Some people can afford premium products like Velodyne, Paradigm, Wilson, Theta, Lexicon, Aerial and many other high-end products.

Eventually people will recognize that this particular OP is interested in more than bang for the buck. I feel for the guy as every time he brings up premium B&M products he mostly gets people who want to show him how much more woofage he can get for his money.

We have some members who want and are willing to spend the money for premium products. One of them writes for Stereophile.

Those people are interested in things like the B&W 802 speaker and not speakers from Chase Home Theater.

Those of us who read about your shootout know that you had quite the journey from your Infinity subs, your Jamo subs, your SVS subs, your Yamaha sub and now your pair of Captivators. And, if you think that you got the most bang for the buck, their are those who are into DIY and/or IB who would argue that they can DIY Cap performance for less money. So, it is all relative.

I like ID as much as the next guy, but if the OP has a burning desire for the DD-18+ and can afford it, telling him that ID is cheaper doesn't begin to address his questions.

Well said.
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post #26 of 69
9/6/11 at 4:47pm
I have a DD-10+. Not nearly an 18, obviously, and a third the price, but I've been pretty happy with it so far. It gets easily into the ~20hz range and does a respectable job of pressurizing my ~4500 ft^3 living/dining room. Obviously, it's not going to be at nearly the level of one of the much bigger subs, especially considering what you could get ID. But for a small, extremely attractive (WAF) sub, it gets the job done, which is what I was looking for. If it was a dedicated HT room, I would definitely take the money that the DD-10+ cost and buy a bigger, more powerful, but less pretty sub.

The built-in room EQ has been a bit disappointing. It does a decent job, but I think there are better options out there. I've been a lot more impressed with the results of the Paradigm/Anthem system, for instance.

If I had the space and budget for a DD-18+ (a few years, hopefully!), I would probably get a Paradigm Sub1 instead. Something to consider.
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post #27 of 69
9/6/11 at 5:04pm
How different is the DD+ eq compared with the older SMS-1 built into the previous DD? The SMS-1 was and still is a great eq unit, but it's auto function sucks.
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post #28 of 69
9/6/11 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

How different is the DD+ eq compared with the older SMS-1 built into the previous DD? The SMS-1 was and still is a great eq unit, but it's auto function sucks.

I haven't used the previous version, so I can't comment on that specifically. I will say that I basically ended up disabling most of the EQ that it did and using my receiver's EQ instead.

What about the older EQ was so bad?
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post #29 of 69
9/6/11 at 5:22pm
It's a great fully parametric eq which you can use to view the frequency response on your TV as you adjust. It's autoEq function is close to useless, however. It does some rudimentary eq'ing, but not really as a parametric. For that, you have to Do it manually It is a nice device to use manually.
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post #30 of 69
9/6/11 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaQBlogs View Post

Seriously...6000$. Wow!!!
how can Velodyne expect to compete with HSU, SVS, Rythmik, and so on.
Would it not be smarter to spend 1/4 th of this in room acoustics instead

Compete? They outsell all of those combined and predate them by more than a decade.

BTW, they sell ID now and the DD18+ is not $6k.

If someone prefers to audition a sub then have it delivered and set up by an authorized and reputable dealer, then the Velo DD18+ is an excellent choice. Great sub from a great company.

Bosso
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