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3D MVC frame packing @ 60 hertz interlaced?

post #1 of 21
9/6/11 at 9:26am
Thread Starter 
If this has been discussed before then I must have missed it.
Both my Sony HDR-TD10 and my JVC GS-TD1 3D camcorders output some form of MVC frame packing in interlace format at 60 hertz.
3D televisions recognize the 3D video directly from the camcorders and display extremely good 3D quality which I prefer to Blu-Ray 3D at only 24 hertz progressive.

I'm curious as to what methods can be used via computer to output 3D video to a 3DTV via HDMI in the same format as these 3D camcorders.
Anybody know?
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post #2 of 21
9/6/11 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

If this has been discussed before then I must have missed it.
Both my Sony HDR-TD10 and my JVC GS-TD1 3D camcorders output some form of MVC frame packing in interlace format at 60 hertz.
3D televisions recognize the 3D video directly from the camcorders and display extremely good 3D quality which I prefer to Blu-Ray 3D at only 24 hertz progressive.

I'm curious as to what methods can be used via computer to output 3D video to a 3DTV via HDMI in the same format as these 3D camcorders.
Anybody know?

For a while, I was getting a 3D signal from TMT5 to my JVC RS40 projector simply by playing JVC TD1 clips directly from the PC. It was wonky, though. The projector never really switched to 3D mode and activated its emitter, and the sync seemed to take longer to lock up. Right now, even that doesn't work. I don't think there's any software that can play back those clips in 3D - none that I'm aware of anyway. Perhaps when the AVCHD 2.0 spec is integrated into computer software players, we won't have any issues getting the files to play natively to our HDMI TVs.
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post #3 of 21
9/6/11 at 7:54pm
I have plenty of use for both Blu-ray 3D at 24p and MVC 60i. If JVC upgrades the firmware of the TD1 to full AVCHD 2.0 specs, it should have a 24p mode which would be perfect for a lot of the kinds of video I like to shoot. For my little nephew's soccer games and such, 60i will work a lot better.
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post #4 of 21
9/6/11 at 9:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

If this has been discussed before then I must have missed it.
Both my Sony HDR-TD10 and my JVC GS-TD1 3D camcorders output some form of MVC frame packing in interlace format at 60 hertz.
3D televisions recognize the 3D video directly from the camcorders and display extremely good 3D quality which I prefer to Blu-Ray 3D at only 24 hertz progressive.

I'm curious as to what methods can be used via computer to output 3D video to a 3DTV via HDMI in the same format as these 3D camcorders.
Anybody know?

The 1080i60 files play to my row interlaced passive monitor using the "stereoscopic player" software from the link below.

This player supports the MVC files in the original format that is imported from the camcorder, without no conversion needed.

It plays to to a wide range of 3D display devices. It also accepts various input formats besides MVC.

An added benefit is that it can play SBS files in 2D mode for use with 2D monitors where only SBS files are available.

Using this player with my passive 3D monitor's native "row interlaced" format produces image quailty playback that is better than connecting the TD10 camcorder directly to my monitor by HDMI in the SBS mode.

Does this hit the mark?

Link:
http://www.3dtv.at/Downloads/Index_en.aspx
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post #5 of 21
9/7/11 at 6:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

The 1080i60 files play to my row interlaced passive monitor using the "stereoscopic player" software from the link below.

This player supports the MVC files in the original format that is imported from the camcorder, without no conversion needed.

It plays to to a wide range of 3D display devices. It also accepts various input formats besides MVC.

An added benefit is that it can play SBS files in 2D mode for use with 2D monitors where only SBS files are available.

Using this player with my passive 3D monitor's native "row interlaced" format produces image quailty playback that is better than connecting the TD10 camcorder directly to my monitor by HDMI in the SBS mode.

Does this hit the mark?

Link:
http://www.3dtv.at/Downloads/Index_en.aspx

This isn't exactly the answer I was looking for but thanks anyway.
Perhaps it will help someone else though.
I've been using Stereoscopic Player for well over a year and am well aware of it's capability's.
The thing is, both the camcorders output frame packing for interlace format at 60 hertz. Stereoscopic Player does not have that capability as far as I know. Whether Peter Wimmer can make it output in this format or not I don't know but that's what I'd like to see.
The best 60 hertz output I've been able to get from a computer to a 3DTV is using checkerboard mode. I think frame packing for interlace at 60 hertz would be even better quality. The negative would be loss of windowed 3D mode but I would still have the windowed 3D modes available.
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post #6 of 21
9/7/11 at 8:31am
This is most strange because I don't believe there is any HDMI spec for 1080i60 framepacking.
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post #7 of 21
9/7/11 at 10:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post
This is most strange because I don't believe there is any HDMI spec for 1080i60 framepacking.
The first time I read about it was when JVC claimed that this is the format that their GS-TD1 3D camcorder uses.
It must be real as I can see it for myself.
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post #8 of 21
9/7/11 at 12:53pm
Thread Starter 
I should mention that the Sony HDR-TD10 3D camcorder gives three options for HDMI out which are :
1. Auto
2. Frame Packing
3. Side by side

All are obviously interlaced outputs.
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post #9 of 21
9/7/11 at 10:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

I should mention that the Sony HDR-TD10 3D camcorder gives three options for HDMI out which are :
1. Auto
2. Frame Packing
3. Side by side

All are obviously interlaced outputs.

Which of your TVs inter-operate properly with the TD10 HDMI output set to Frame Packing when the content recorded and displayed is 3D?
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post #10 of 21
9/8/11 at 5:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post
Which of your TVs inter-operate properly with the TD10 HDMI output set to Frame Packing when the content recorded and displayed is 3D?
My 32 inch Vizio 3DTV from WalMart
My 2010 model Samsung flat panels don't recognize the Sony Frame Packing output at all even with the latest firmware updates (black screen).
My Mitsubishi doesn't recognize it either (black screen).
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post #11 of 21
9/8/11 at 6:03am
My JVC TD1 camcorder has no problem playing MVC video (mp4 files) to any of my 3D displays - JVC RS40, Samsung plasma and Samsung LCD. I recall a JVC rep saying that they had no problem with any display on which they tried it. The JVC MVC implementation must be very close to the regular Blu-ray 3D spec - at least close enough to work with even first gen 3D displays.
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post #12 of 21
9/8/11 at 6:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
My JVC TD1 camcorder has no problem playing MVC video (mp4 files) to any of my 3D displays - JVC RS40, Samsung plasma and Samsung LCD. I recall a JVC rep saying that they had no problem with any display on which they tried it. The JVC MVC implementation must be very close to the regular Blu-ray 3D spec - at least close enough to work with even first gen 3D displays.
But what exactly is it outputting. We don't really know do we?
Clearly, it isn't 1080P 3D 24P which is 1920 by 2205 @24P so what the heck is it?
Doesn't appear to be documented anywhere!
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post #13 of 21
9/8/11 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

But what exactly is it outputting. We don't really know do we?
Clearly, it isn't 1080P 3D 24P which is 1920 by 2205 @24P so what the heck is it?
Doesn't appear to be documented anywhere!

I haven't seen documentation, either, but it appears to be exactly what my RS40 tells me it is - 1920x1080/60i. The displays seem to convert it to 1920x1080/60p (scaling each inerlaced field to a full 1920x1080 frame). It's definitely NOT 1920x1080/24p. If it were, we'd have the same motion issues we have when converting to Blu-ray 3D in Vegas. Instead, the motion is very smooth. The only downside is with my RS40, which ghosts much worse when displaying 120hz 3D (2x60hz for each eye). For Blu-ray 3D, the JVC uses a 96hz mode - 48fps for each eye. In that mode, ghosting is minimal. I use my plasma for 120hz 3D for that reason.
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post #14 of 21
9/8/11 at 6:59am
I've always suspected that the signal is really a 1920x540 field for one eye and the difference field for the other eye, just as with Blu-ray 3D, but again, I haven't seen that written anywhere. We don't see the two files as we do with a Blu-ray 3D file structure, because it's packaged inside the mp4 container.
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post #15 of 21
9/8/11 at 9:27am
Thread Starter 
I called Sony tech support and after an hour, someone named Chris with a German/Austrian accent informed me that the TD10 outputs 1080P 3D frame packing @60P and only some very new televisions will support it.
True or false? I have no idea at this point.
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post #16 of 21
9/8/11 at 10:10am
There's a thread about 1080p/60 frame packing here on 3D Central (titled something like "HDMI 1.4 will support 1080p/60 frame packing next year"), but I've only skimmed it. I don't think any of the first gen 3D sets support it, but I don't have a clue about gen 2 sets.

The JVC TD1 is fully compatible with first gen displays, so that's why I think it outputs something like 1920x(540+540+whatever lines are inserted between the stacked frames, maybe 35, for a total of perhaps 1920x1105). No matter what it is, the JVC output seems very close to the existing 1080 3D spec - so much so that it does not create compatibility problems with virtually any 3D set.
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post #17 of 21
9/8/11 at 10:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

There's a thread about 1080p/60 frame packing here on 3D Central (titled something like "HDMI 1.4 will support 1080p/60 frame packing next year"), but I've only skimmed it. I don't think any of the first gen 3D sets support it, but I don't have a clue about gen 2 sets.

The JVC TD1 is fully compatible with first gen displays, so that's why I think it outputs something like 1920x(540+540+whatever lines are inserted between the stacked frames, maybe 35, for a total of perhaps 1920x1105). No matter what it is, the JVC output seems very close to the existing 1080 3D spec - so much so that it does not create compatibility problems with virtually any 3D set.

So what is it then, a trade secret? I'm unable to find any information on it whatsoever!
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post #18 of 21
9/8/11 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

So what is it then, a trade secret? I'm unable to find any information on it whatsoever!

I dunno. I'd say the JVC reps who used to frequent this forum might be able to tell us, but they were driven away by the flak created when the new projector lamps started dying ugly/early deaths, and the claims of 1,300 lumens of brightness proved false. Maybe JVC tech support could answer the question. It's actually very cool the way JVC was able to get the camcorder to communicate so effortlessly with all the existing displays, so I don't know why they wouldn't be proud of that fact. Apparently, the Sony can't do it with its version of MVC in an m2ts wrapper.
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post #19 of 21
9/8/11 at 10:55am
I mentioned this before, but to me it's very exciting to think that in a few months I may be able to take the footage I've shot at 1080/60i and create an edited AVCHD 2.0 disc that will play back as cleanly as the raw mp4 clips do right now from my TD1. Of course, that will require software to create 1080i/60 edited programs and burn them to disc, but that would seem a small technological challenge compared to what the software already does.
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post #20 of 21
9/21/11 at 6:27am
the JVC TD1 output via HDMI is 1280*720 while recording and playback
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post #21 of 21
9/21/11 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adult4D View Post

the JVC TD1 output via HDMI is 1280*720 while recording and playback

I record and watch all my video at 1920x1080 on the TD1. I don't know why you make a claim like this.
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