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Official Sharp Elite PRO-70X5 and 60X5 Owners Thread - Page 344

post #10291 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamd View Post

It's really a shame about the pulsing it's making it impossible for me to enjoy my set and now it's probably going back. 

It sounds like you are particularly sensitive to the visual impact and the fact that pulsing can exist and the higher price point. Yes, you should return the set and move on. It's not right for you. 
post #10292 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I wonder if the 60" is less prone to pulsing than the 70"? I've been watching some shows that I know would have brought out the pulsing and I just don't see any in the ISF mode.

+1. No pulsing at all in ISF modes. In fact my set seems problem free so far! (knocks on wood)
post #10293 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post

I'm with you on the blacks in IVC Low. But certain settings in Local Dimming will mitigate the flickering.
Yeah, we shouldn't have to endure this occasional torture ... it's just the picture looks so good otherwise!

I guess what I saying is that I disagree with you and Adam on this point. When you select IVC Low, you have to adjust Contrast and Brightness down to compensate for the additional brightness that IVC adds. I dont even touch the Backlight setting from zero. I have had my contrast in the 25-23 range and currently have it at 23. I flucuated between -1 and -2 on my Brightness but currently have it at -1. I know you have a meter and can measure the actual differences but to my eyes, these settings produce the same image as using Local Dimming ON with CNET's numbers. What I dont get anymore is pulsing. The other thing that you get with IVC is more contrast. Contrast good!

To me it sounds like Adam is selecting IVC and not really changing his other settings. Thats obviously not going to work. I have been "playing " with this thing for 9 months now and with lots of trial and error, help from this MB, and hundreds and hundreds of hours watching TV, I am very happy with the results.
post #10294 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Well, let's be clear on this, I do notice pulsing very easily and discussed it when this was a very new issue. I can see it in the non-THX movie mode, but don't use that mode for other reasons. I had test material (NCIS) that clearly showed it. I even demonstrated this to Kevin Miller who clearly saw it too. However, in THX movie mode and in Kevin's calibrated ISF modes, there is virtually no pulsing. Kevin and I looked very very closely for it on my demo material after his calibration and we saw none.
So it's not as if I can't see it when it's there, it's simply a case of it being almost non-existent on my set.

So is the pulsing only in the higher settings? I consider THX mode on every TV and projector I've seen almost unwatchable.
post #10295 of 14509
When using IVC I used back light at -3 and contrast at 26 and my eyes can see the difference in black level I don't need a meter to see it. My room is very dark so it makes it easier to spot. You can get a good black level with the back light turned down to -8 to -10 but then I find the picture to be to dark. I have also been able to get pulsing with IVC on low with back light under -5. The elite is a great set but to me the pulsing and trying to find ways for it not to happen its not acceptable to me. If there was a firmware update that fixed it I would be keeping my set no question about it. For those who don't see it or have found ways to work around it and our happy Im sure you will enjoy your set, it's a beautiful tv.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhtatum View Post

I guess what I saying is that I disagree with you and Adam on this point. When you select IVC Low, you have to adjust Contrast and Brightness down to compensate for the additional brightness that IVC adds. I dont even touch the Backlight setting from zero. I have had my contrast in the 25-23 range and currently have it at 23. I flucuated between -1 and -2 on my Brightness but currently have it at -1. I know you have a meter and can measure the actual differences but to my eyes, these settings produce the same image as using Local Dimming ON with CNET's numbers. What I dont get anymore is pulsing. The other thing that you get with IVC is more contrast. Contrast good!
To me it sounds like Adam is selecting IVC and not really changing his other settings. Thats obviously not going to work. I have been "playing " with this thing for 9 months now and with lots of trial and error, help from this MB, and hundreds and hundreds of hours watching TV, I am very happy with the results.
post #10296 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post

So is the pulsing only in the higher settings? I consider THX mode on every TV and projector I've seen almost unwatchable.

Not sure what you mean by 'higher settings'. Actually the THX mode is very nice and the results are extremely impressive. IMO they're bettered only by the ISF mode.
post #10297 of 14509
Soap Opera Effect

I was hoping for some advice. I recently compared the Panasonic VT50 65 inch and the Sharp Elite 60 inch at a local Best Buy. I liked the Elite's still picture - the black levels were great, the contrast, color and saturation were all much deeper and more bold looking than the VT50. But I am extremely sensitive to the Soap Opera Effect, which is where the image looks like it's shot on video (please don't tell me it looks more "natural" that way!), and to me the beauty of the Elite was destroyed by this disturbing effect. I ordered the Panasonic, but if there was something that could be done to lessen the video effect, I might change my order. I don't know if it's just the nature of this set, and the consequence of all that sharpness and contrast that the image stands out in relief a bit too much, like in a video, or if there's something that can be done.

So many people here have the set and do not mention this, so I'm wondering if they found a way to control this problem, or if it's just that I am very sensitive to it. We did try different motion control settings, different Hz settings, but they didn't resolve the issue. There may be other things to try, I'm hoping. Also, tvs were hooked up to a bottom of the line Samsung Blu-Ray player, so I'm wondering if the effect will improve with a better player. I have both the Oppo BDP-95 and the Pioneer BDP-95FD, and if I thought it would help, I'd take the Oppo in and try them again.

Thanks for your help.
Edited by thegrail - 7/25/12 at 1:21pm
post #10298 of 14509
I find this as well, I watch Jurassic park the other night and lots of it looked like it was fake and you could really see it was a set. It's hard to explain but I really noticed it on starwars episode 3, everything looked fake. I never use any of the 120hz modes too. Some people are more sensitive to it I think or like the look. It also could have been the amp it was going through. The first time I saw the elite it looked like major SOE but it was a setting on the reciever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrail View Post

Soap Opera Effect
I was hoping for some advice. I recently compared the Panasonic VT50 65 inch and the Sharp Elite 60 inch at a local Best Buy. I liked the Elite's still picture - the black levels were great, the contrast, color and saturation were all much deeper and more bold looking than the VT50. But I am extremely sensitive to the Soap Opera Effect, which is where the image looks like it's shot on video (please don't tell me it looks more "natural" that way!), and to me the beauty of the Elite was destroyed by this disturbing effect. I ordered the Panasonic, but if there was something that could be done to lessen the video effect, I might change my order. I don't know if it's just the nature of this set, and the consequence of all that contrast that the image stands out in relief a bit too much, like in a video, or if there's something that can be done.
So many people here have the set and do not mention this, so I'm wondering if they found a way to control this problem, or if it's just that I am very sensitive to it. We did try different motion control settings, different Hz settings, but they didn't resolve the issue. There may be other things to try, I'm hoping. Also, tvs were hooked up to a bottom of the line Samsung Blu-Ray player, so I'm wondering if the effect will improve with a better player. I have both the Oppo BDP-95 and the Pioneer BDP-95FD, and if I thought it would help, I'd take the Oppo in and try them again.
Thanks for your help.
post #10299 of 14509
I have never noticed the SOE on the Elite, but maybe I'm not as sensitive as others? I set Motion Enhancement to 120 Low. Film mode I leave off. Things look natural to me.

I have an Oppo 83 SE player.
post #10300 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Not sure what you mean by 'higher settings'. Actually the THX mode is very nice and the results are extremely impressive. IMO they're bettered only by the ISF mode.

Well, I'm not sure what all the settings are on the Elite. Typically, THX mode on my Epson projector as well as other TV's I've seen is close to what you see in the theater. However,I've always disliked a theater image because I consider it so washed out and "flat" compared to the more dynamic settings on a LED TV or projector. On my Epson 8700UB I have it set to Dynamic which produces a really nice pop to the picture. THX mode on it is very bland and one dimensional by comparison(to me)
post #10301 of 14509
I'm really surprised everyone hates SOE so much. If a set had no frame interpolation/motion smoothing abilities, it would be a deal breaker. SOE adds a much more realistic true to life effect that is almost 3D. Obviously I would not want it set to maximum, but a touch of it adds a lot to the image IMO. Without it, you have a "blur" during motion which is very unlifelike and a result of an inferior and outdated technology.
post #10302 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhtatum View Post

I guess what I saying is that I disagree with you and Adam on this point. When you select IVC Low, you have to adjust Contrast and Brightness down to compensate for the additional brightness that IVC adds. I dont even touch the Backlight setting from zero. I have had my contrast in the 25-23 range and currently have it at 23. I flucuated between -1 and -2 on my Brightness but currently have it at -1. I know you have a meter and can measure the actual differences but to my eyes, these settings produce the same image as using Local Dimming ON with CNET's numbers. What I dont get anymore is pulsing. The other thing that you get with IVC is more contrast. Contrast good!
To me it sounds like Adam is selecting IVC and not really changing his other settings. Thats obviously not going to work. I have been "playing " with this thing for 9 months now and with lots of trial and error, help from this MB, and hundreds and hundreds of hours watching TV, I am very happy with the results.

Hi - my name is AnotherDude. I'm a black level addict biggrin.gif. I set my Local Dimming backlight to 24 ISF, which should be around -7 in THX numbers. In order ot get a matching black level on IVC Low, I need to set the backlight to ISF 4 which is around -15 in THX numbers. By the time I end up with that black level and corresponding contrast on IVC Low the pulsing is similar between IVC LD and IVC Low.

A brightness of -2 or -1 has a nice added pop to it but you lose some shadow detail. I like to set brightness at 0 or 1.

But Standard backlight is the least pulsing succeptible. Cutting down on the contrast as you did is the big help on avoiding the flickering.
post #10303 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post

Well, I'm not sure what all the settings are on the Elite. Typically, THX mode on my Epson projector as well as other TV's I've seen is close to what you see in the theater. However,I've always disliked a theater image because I consider it so washed out and "flat" compared to the more dynamic settings on a LED TV or projector. On my Epson 8700UB I have it set to Dynamic which produces a really nice pop to the picture. THX mode on it is very bland and one dimensional by comparison(to me)
And that is the why of all those settings - different strokes for different folks biggrin.gif.
post #10304 of 14509
AdamD: I do find that some material is more prone to the SOE. For example, in Quantum of Solace, in the early car chase sequence when the cars get to the mining area, you can see that two cameras were used, and one appears to be a video camera, because the SOE drastically appears then disappears.

AnotherDude: If you never noticed the SOE, then I'm sure you're not too sensitive to it, but I'll look into trying your settings. Thank you.

ddog750: Now I said no posts telling me the SOE is more natural (or realistic), and there you go. tongue.gif In my experience, the few people who like this effect are frequently younger folks, who did not grow up with film, may have never shot a film camera, and who instead grew up with computer screens. So computerish looking movies seem more realistic to them.
post #10305 of 14509
When you say SOE, I always think of smoothing of skin tones and detail, but a car chase scene I tend to think of in terms of judder. I do notice a bit of judder occasionally, but it's not distracting for me as it isn't excessive.
Edited by AnotherDude - 7/25/12 at 4:30pm
post #10306 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrail View Post

Soap Opera Effect
I was hoping for some advice. I recently compared the Panasonic VT50 65 inch and the Sharp Elite 60 inch at a local Best Buy. I liked the Elite's still picture - the black levels were great, the contrast, color and saturation were all much deeper and more bold looking than the VT50. But I am extremely sensitive to the Soap Opera Effect, which is where the image looks like it's shot on video (please don't tell me it looks more "natural" that way!), and to me the beauty of the Elite was destroyed by this disturbing effect. I ordered the Panasonic, but if there was something that could be done to lessen the video effect, I might change my order. I don't know if it's just the nature of this set, and the consequence of all that sharpness and contrast that the image stands out in relief a bit too much, like in a video, or if there's something that can be done.
So many people here have the set and do not mention this, so I'm wondering if they found a way to control this problem, or if it's just that I am very sensitive to it. We did try different motion control settings, different Hz settings, but they didn't resolve the issue. There may be other things to try, I'm hoping. Also, tvs were hooked up to a bottom of the line Samsung Blu-Ray player, so I'm wondering if the effect will improve with a better player. I have both the Oppo BDP-95 and the Pioneer BDP-95FD, and if I thought it would help, I'd take the Oppo in and try them again.
Thanks for your help.

The SOE you are experiencing has nothing to do with the hz setting whatsoever. It is a result of film mode which I have completely disabled. Once film mode is "off" i see no SOE at all! And for the hz setting I use 120 low. 70X5FD
post #10307 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrail View Post

ddog750: Now I said no posts telling me the SOE is more natural (or realistic), and there you go. tongue.gif In my experience, the few people who like this effect are frequently younger folks, who did not grow up with film, may have never shot a film camera, and who instead grew up with computer screens. So computerish looking movies seem more realistic to them.

well, I'm 52, so not too young. However, I do realize I am in the minority on my preferences. I just never much liked the image a film produces in the theater. Even when I was much younger and had nothing to compare it to, the theater screen image always seems so bland. We just got back from seeing the last Batman movie. Although I enjoyed the flick, all I kept thinking while watching was just how flat and lifeless the image was compared to my home theater or a full array backlit TV.
post #10308 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrail View Post

Soap Opera Effect
I was hoping for some advice. I recently compared the Panasonic VT50 65 inch and the Sharp Elite 60 inch at a local Best Buy. I liked the Elite's still picture - the black levels were great, the contrast, color and saturation were all much deeper and more bold looking than the VT50. But I am extremely sensitive to the Soap Opera Effect, which is where the image looks like it's shot on video (please don't tell me it looks more "natural" that way!), and to me the beauty of the Elite was destroyed by this disturbing effect. I ordered the Panasonic, but if there was something that could be done to lessen the video effect, I might change my order. I don't know if it's just the nature of this set, and the consequence of all that sharpness and contrast that the image stands out in relief a bit too much, like in a video, or if there's something that can be done.
So many people here have the set and do not mention this, so I'm wondering if they found a way to control this problem, or if it's just that I am very sensitive to it. We did try different motion control settings, different Hz settings, but they didn't resolve the issue. There may be other things to try, I'm hoping. Also, tvs were hooked up to a bottom of the line Samsung Blu-Ray player, so I'm wondering if the effect will improve with a better player. I have both the Oppo BDP-95 and the Pioneer BDP-95FD, and if I thought it would help, I'd take the Oppo in and try them again.
Thanks for your help.

If the film mode settings are set to 'off' under the 'advanced' settings, the motion should appear no different than they do with a plasma. There is zero SOE with the film mode set to 'off'. I've yet to see any display of any type that has 'built-in SOE', it just doesn't happen.

Unfortunately the Best Buy sales person obviously did not understand the set or its controls. I too am very sensitive to SOE and don't tolerate it well. I remember first seeing it at a Sony store on a Sony LCD and thought I was watching "The making of Avatar". smile.gif
post #10309 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamd View Post

I find this as well, I watch Jurassic park the other night and lots of it looked like it was fake and you could really see it was a set. It's hard to explain but I really noticed it on starwars episode 3, everything looked fake. I never use any of the 120hz modes too. Some people are more sensitive to it I think or like the look. It also could have been the amp it was going through. The first time I saw the elite it looked like major SOE but it was a setting on the reciever.

Adam, I'm beginning to think you've never really had your Elite set properly.
post #10310 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post

I have never noticed the SOE on the Elite, but maybe I'm not as sensitive as others? I set Motion Enhancement to 120 Low. Film mode I leave off. Things look natural to me.
I have an Oppo 83 SE player.

And that's why you never see the SOE, you have Film Mode set to 'off'. I think we're seeing too many posts where it's assumed that because someone doesn't see some 'issue' it's because the issue is really there but the person isn't sensitive to it. This simply is not true in many cases. This discussion of the SOE is a prime example.
post #10311 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post

Well, I'm not sure what all the settings are on the Elite. Typically, THX mode on my Epson projector as well as other TV's I've seen is close to what you see in the theater. However,I've always disliked a theater image because I consider it so washed out and "flat" compared to the more dynamic settings on a LED TV or projector. On my Epson 8700UB I have it set to Dynamic which produces a really nice pop to the picture. THX mode on it is very bland and one dimensional by comparison(to me)

Don't get your display ISF'd, you won't like it.
post #10312 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrail View Post

AdamD: I do find that some material is more prone to the SOE. For example, in Quantum of Solace, in the early car chase sequence when the cars get to the mining area, you can see that two cameras were used, and one appears to be a video camera, because the SOE drastically appears then disappears.
AnotherDude: If you never noticed the SOE, then I'm sure you're not too sensitive to it, but I'll look into trying your settings. Thank you.
ddog750: Now I said no posts telling me the SOE is more natural (or realistic), and there you go. tongue.gif In my experience, the few people who like this effect are frequently younger folks, who did not grow up with film, may have never shot a film camera, and who instead grew up with computer screens. So computerish looking movies seem more realistic to them.

And you raise an excellent point for those that aren't aware of how some movies have been shot. I too have seen movies where the director deliberately wants the 'video look' for a given scene. I suppose if someone wasn't aware of this they would think the display they're watching it on has the SOE. This is why we must be very cautious before blaming a display for an 'issue' that might be intended by the director or the result of a myriad of other factors.

It's kind of like blaming a display for whacked color while watching a stylized movie. smile.gif
post #10313 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post

When you say SOE, I always think of smoothing of skin tones and detail, but a car chase scene I tend to think of in terms of judder. I do notice a bit of judder occasionally, but it's not distracting for me as it isn't excessive.

And it should be understood that judder occurs naturally in film. It's simply the nature of the way film is shot. The Elite is not adding 'judder', it's merely reproducing the judder that is inherent in the film.
post #10314 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

And you raise an excellent point for those that aren't aware of how some movies have been shot. I too have seen movies where the director deliberately wants the 'video look' for a given scene. I suppose if someone wasn't aware of this they would think the display they're watching it on has the SOE. This is why we must be very cautious before blaming a display for an 'issue' that might be intended by the director or the result of a myriad of other factors.
It's kind of like blaming a display for whacked color while watching a stylized movie. smile.gif

Oh I definitely know that some movies are shot with a filter sometimes to create a different effect. For example, 300 has a somewhat pixelated look to give it a graphic novel feel. O Brother Where art Thou was shot with a brownish color filter to give it a 1930's feel. There are other examples but those are off the top of my head.

And thanks for the heads up on ISF. Apparently I was mistaken on what that entailed.
post #10315 of 14509
I still haven't made the 3 hour drive to be able to see the Elite in person. I have seen the 65" Sony 929 in action though. Is it fair to say the PQ will be close to this since it's the same technology? I know the Elite has more dimming zones, but would you say it's a close approximation of what what I would see on the Elite?
post #10316 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post

Oh I definitely know that some movies are shot with a filter sometimes to create a different effect. For example, 300 has a somewhat pixelated look to give it a graphic novel feel. O Brother Where art Thou was shot with a brownish color filter to give it a 1930's feel. There are other examples but those are off the top of my head.
And thanks for the heads up on ISF. Apparently I was mistaken on what that entailed.

Yeah Kdog, there are many people who just don't like the ISF 'look'. Even though it conforms to a set standard, it's often a much 'tamer' and subdued look than how people often have their displays adjusted. We often tell people on AVS to live with an ISF adjusted display for a couple of weeks and then go back to the settings they previously had. Often, in a case like that, people will then view their original settings very differently...sometimes to the point of saying their previous settings now looked 'garish'. Of course there are others who never get accustomed to the look.
post #10317 of 14509
Dyauswinters and Ken Ross: I believe we did turn the film mode to off, but I will go back again and try that specifically. It's nice to have two people confirm that. I'm open-minded, yet a little doubtful, since I believe we did that. Thank you both for the settings recommendations.

Ken Ross: Funny you mention Sony, because I also checked out the Sony HX929, and I do not believe any setting could prevent the SOE with that, and the kids running the store love the SOE, and have every TV in the entire store running SOE to the max. I didn't want to mention it because I didn't want to get off track.

kdog750: You should go to the theater and sync the movie on your iPad and watch it on that. biggrin.gif
post #10318 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post

I still haven't made the 3 hour drive to be able to see the Elite in person. I have seen the 65" Sony 929 in action though. Is it fair to say the PQ will be close to this since it's the same technology? I know the Elite has more dimming zones, but would you say it's a close approximation of what what I would see on the Elite?

Since I too had a 929, I can tell you the picture is definitely better. Is it 100X better? No, but it is better. There is no haloing, the blacks with actual content are better and the overall dynamic range is better. If you're in to 3D, that is much better than the Sony.

It's worth a drive to see one. Hopefully you'll find one that isn't adjusted too badly.
post #10319 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrail View Post

Dyauswinters and Ken Ross: I believe we did turn the film mode to off, but I will go back again and try that specifically. It's nice to have two people confirm that. I'm open-minded, yet a little doubtful, since I believe we did that. Thank you both for the settings recommendations.
Ken Ross: Funny you mention Sony, because I also checked out the Sony HX929, and I do not believe any setting could prevent the SOE with that, and the kids running the store love the SOE, and have every TV in the entire store running SOE to the max. I didn't want to mention it because I didn't want to get off track.
kdog750: You should go to the theater and sync the movie on your iPad and watch it on that. biggrin.gif

Trust me, I've never yet seen a display of any type where the SOE couldn't be adjusted out. There should be absolutely zero SOE on a properly adjusted Elite. Zero.
post #10320 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrail View Post

kdog750: You should go to the theater and sync the movie on your iPad and watch it on that. biggrin.gif

lol well I know my preferences don't match up well with most of the purists here. I guess I would be considered a videophille that prefers the settings of someone with zero audio/video knowledge. The exception is 3D though. I absolutely hate it and wish it would fade away like a bad fart. It's a fad that's showed up every decade or so for the last half century.
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