Official Sharp Elite PRO-70X5 and 60X5 Owners Thread - Page 64

Originally Posted by JWhip

Sorry my fried but the set was very undersaturated. Seems that there is no disputing this and the sets calibrated by three experts,. who I have known for awhile. I am glad that yours isn't. The 70" had the same issues as the 60 but was not part of the shootout. It was an issue here.

Originally Posted by Geickel

Ken, I will check the 60 and 70 at work (Magnolia, in case you haven't read my posts) when I go in today. I specifically remember being initially disappointed with the 60 when we first got it in. The colors seemed really unsaturated, but I played with the settings, and became more and more impressed. Not sure where I ended up as far as the color setting goes. Why don't you give me your exact settings, and I'll enter them on the 70 (and 60, for comparison's sake). I'll report my results when I get home tonight.
Also, to anyone in the area, and I hope I'm not breaking any forum rules, but I work at the Magnolia/Best Buy in the Greater Kansas City area, at the Oak Park store (technically Overland Park, north of 95th on Quivera). I am working on setting all of the Sammy d8000s and d7000s, Panny GT- and VT30s according to David Katzmaier's user menu calibration settings, which should get them at least reasonably close, as they've all already been aged with different content. I'll also have both Elites displayed in Movie THX mode. Come in and ask for Dan. The only thing I ask is that you do not waste my time, and then not purchase from my store. I will cater to your needs. I will do whatever it takes (within reason, of course) to help you make an educated/informed decision, and I can match local competitor's prices. Best Buy WILL NOT allow me to match online prices, so again please don't waste my time only to try to haggle me down, and then not buy because Amazon or some other online vendor has it for a few dollars less, as I believe my time, service, expertise (although somewhat limited compared with other posters on this forum), and ability to actually let you view them in person (which no online vendor can offer) is worth a few more dollars. In short, just put your integrity hat on before you come, as I'll always have mine on. With that disclaimer out of the way, bring whatever content you like, just try to keep it somewhat family friendly, and I'll help you out to the best of my ability. Also, I'd love to know that you are a poster here, so let me know.
To the moderators and other posters, I apologize for being so off-topic with this post, I just want to give the posters in my area a place where they can view these sets in a somewhat controllable environment, make an educated decision, and receive great service while doing so. If I'm out of line, let me know, and I will remove this post. Thanks.

Originally Posted by sycore

Totally agree. The shootout should be reclassified as searching for the best set capable of displaying film based material in a dedicated, blackened out theater room rather the the "best" display. They way people used these displays has changed.

Oh, you want to test 3D performance because like it or not, a lot of film are starting to use it?
We don't test for that.
Oh, you want to test input lag because you will be gaming more hours than actually viewing movies?
We don't test for that?
Oh, you want to clock more hours watching sports and regular video frame rate broadcasts in the daytime with indirect light in the room, like most people do?
We don't test for that?

Don't get me wrong, I totally appreciate Robert and all who gave of their time and money to participate, but clearly some new guidelines need to be established or qualifiers made before you start throwing around the term shootout winner.

Originally Posted by Jim Clamage

I own a 70 Elite, so I came to Sunday's shootout with some obvious bias. But I think I was able to keep an open mind and listened carefully to all of the presentations, Q&A and discussions that took place. I took lots of notes, some were even readable later. Here's some of my random thoughts:

1. The Samsung PN59D8000 had the best color to me (nice to know my untrained eyes saw some of the same things as D-Nice). The VT30 looked good until D-Nice showed some scenes where everyone had a suntan. The Elite's color looked undersaturated and off axis viewing was very washed out (I was sitting next to the door so I was really off axis). Fortunately I don't have off axis issues in my room. I do notice the color saturation issues at home in THX and ISF day/night...and hope to address that soon with guidance from VE.

2. The black level and contrast ratio comparisons, both in a dark room and with the lights on, were remarkable even to my untrained eyes. The Elite did really well, better than all the plasma's and was as black as the Samsung and Sony LCDs, and they were turned OFF. From my notes the Elite contrast was 15,194 to 1. The next closest was 6,000ish to 1 (the VT30). The worst was 600-ish (LG). Elite Black level was .0004 (as noted previously). The others were higher (I can't read my notes, I wrote as fast as Kevin spoke and that's a bad combo for reading later).

3. The presentation showing no blooming on the Elite (vs the other LCDs) was very revealing. I felt bad for the Sony that had the bad luck to be right next to the Elite.

4. The Cyan issue with the Elite was noticeable once I was told what to look for. I've never noticed it at home in every day viewing over the last 30 days or so. Kudos to Ken for picking it up early; same to the calibrators for confirming it and speaking openly about it on both shootout days and in forum posts, and for the manufacturer for their commitment to address it...well, maybe I'll wait to give them kudos until after they fix it.

5. The Motion resolution and judder tests were also revealing. The D8000 almost made me puke from motion sickness...then the Samsung rep had them correct a setting and it was fine. Glad he was there, it would have been hard to continue viewing it with my sushi all over the front. The Elite looked very sharp and judder free with 120 low. The VT30 was also very good. I changed my settings to 120 low as soon as I got home.

6. Kevin and D-Nice were asked what factors were most important in evaluating a TV. Both seemed to give equal weight to contrast ratio and color accuracy. On that basis they couldn't call the Elite "best" due to the cyan issue. D-Nice did say publicly that if Elite fixes the cyan, it would be his top rated set. Given how well the Elite did with contrast, it's hard to argue with that logic.

7. In my voting I had the Elite tops in black level and contrast ratio, the D8000 tops in color accuracy, the VT30, D8000 and Elite more or less tied for 3rd in motion resolution and general content video quality. Based on my math, the Elite did very well but didn't win...nor did it "kill" anyone's Kuro. Robert's "reveal" of his Kuro behind the painting was fun. It is beautiful for sure.

8. To my eye, contrast tops color accuracy. But on the basis of all of the above I'm not sure I would rate the Elite above the 2 plasmas overall and frankly I was surprised that the Elite won the shootout.

9. That said, if you have a lot of ambient light in your room (like me), I think the Elite is an appropriate solution to consider. It does great in a bright room. I just can't see either the D8000 or VT30 doing as well in terms of color or reflections in my sunroom. But I'll never know for sure now .

For now I want to get the cyan issue fixed, explore the saturation issues further, and then figure out if my 70 will need to be re-calibrated (and who will be responsible for that cost).

And finally, many thanks to Robert, Wendy, their kids and staff at VE for a great event. And to all the calibration professionals (D-Nice, Kevin, Ed) and manufacturer's reps in attendance who made the 4 hours a very worthy investment in my time.

Regards to all,

Jim

Originally Posted by D-Nice

So many interesting comments being posted in this thread a very little time to address all of them. However, I will address yours.


Why did we exculde 3D. Explain to me and everyone else on this forum how to thouroughly present 3D to the audience when each manufacturer as a unique pair of glasses that are incompatable with their competition??? until 3D is standardized with the manufacturers (earliest timeframe is next year), we will not be evaluating/demoing 3D as we do not have the capability of showing 3D on every single panel at the same time where everyone can see 3D at the same time.

Input lag. Myself, Kevin nor Ed are not gammers. We understand a lot of you all are and will attempt to add input lag tests to the 2012 evaluation process.

"Oh, you want to clock more hours watching sports and regular video frame rate broadcasts in the daytime with indirect light in the room, like most people do?" We evaluated the displays with lights on and off. Not sure how you missed that.... unless you were not paying attention to the streams.

We appreciate constructive criticism as it helps improve the quality of the shootout. However, if any of you are here only to bitch and complain, let's see you orcestrate an event like this.

Originally Posted by D-Nice

So many interesting comments being posted in this thread a very little time to address all of them. However, I will address yours.


Why did we exculde 3D. Explain to me and everyone else on this forum how to thouroughly present 3D to the audience when each manufacturer as a unique pair of glasses that are incompatable with their competition??? until 3D is standardized with the manufacturers (earliest timeframe is next year), we will not be evaluating/demoing 3D as we do not have the capability of showing 3D on every single panel at the same time where everyone can see 3D at the same time.

Input lag. Myself, Kevin nor Ed are not gammers. We understand a lot of you all are and will attempt to add input lag tests to the 2012 evaluation process.

"Oh, you want to clock more hours watching sports and regular video frame rate broadcasts in the daytime with indirect light in the room, like most people do?" We evaluated the displays with lights on and off. Not sure how you missed that.... unless you were not paying attention to the streams.

We appreciate constructive criticism as it helps improve the quality of the shootout. However, if any of you are here only to bitch and complain, let's see you orcestrate an event like this.

Originally Posted by Geickel

Ken, I will check the 60 and 70 at work (Magnolia, in case you haven't read my posts) when I go in today. I specifically remember being initially disappointed with the 60 when we first got it in. The colors seemed really unsaturated, but I played with the settings, and became more and more impressed. Not sure where I ended up as far as the color setting goes. Why don't you give me your exact settings, and I'll enter them on the 70 (and 60, for comparison's sake). I'll report my results when I get home tonight.
Also, to anyone in the area, and I hope I'm not breaking any forum rules, but I work at the Magnolia/Best Buy in the Greater Kansas City area, at the Oak Park store (technically Overland Park, north of 95th on Quivera). I am working on setting all of the Sammy d8000s and d7000s, Panny GT- and VT30s according to David Katzmaier's user menu calibration settings, which should get them at least reasonably close, as they've all already been aged with different content. I'll also have both Elites displayed in Movie THX mode. Come in and ask for Dan. The only thing I ask is that you do not waste my time, and then not purchase from my store. I will cater to your needs. I will do whatever it takes (within reason, of course) to help you make an educated/informed decision, and I can match local competitor's prices. Best Buy WILL NOT allow me to match online prices, so again please don't waste my time only to try to haggle me down, and then not buy because Amazon or some other online vendor has it for a few dollars less, as I believe my time, service, expertise (although somewhat limited compared with other posters on this forum), and ability to actually let you view them in person (which no online vendor can offer) is worth a few more dollars. In short, just put your integrity hat on before you come, as I'll always have mine on. With that disclaimer out of the way, bring whatever content you like, just try to keep it somewhat family friendly, and I'll help you out to the best of my ability. Also, I'd love to know that you are a poster here, so let me know.
To the moderators and other posters, I apologize for being so off-topic with this post, I just want to give the posters in my area a place where they can view these sets in a somewhat controllable environment, make an educated decision, and receive great service while doing so. If I'm out of line, let me know, and I will remove this post. Thanks.

Originally Posted by sycore

Congrats to you and Ken Ross for picking up the Cyan problem with the Elite. It is amazing that even with that flaw it supposedly won the shootout.

Originally Posted by JWhip

Sorry my fried but the set was very undersaturated. Seems that there is no disputing this and the sets calibrated by three experts,. who I have known for awhile. I am glad that yours isn't. The 70" had the same issues as the 60 but was not part of the shootout. It was an issue here.

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Thanks Geickel, try these on the 60. It doesn't get rid of the cyan issue but it does make it somewhat less severe, but other colors look pretty good to my eye:

Local Dimming- On
OPC- Off
Backlight- Standard
Contrast +32
Brightness (-2)
Color +8
Tint 0
Sharpness +1

CMS Hue:
R (-4)
Y 0
G 0
C (-10)
B +10
M 0

CMS Saturation:
G +10
(all others at default)

CMS Value:
C (-5)
(all others at default)

Color Temp:
No changes

Motion Setting: Off

Precision Color: Off

Active Contrast: Off

Film: Off

DNR: Medium

Just as a side note, I've found the noise reduction on the Elite to be more effective than some others I've had on other displays over the years. It seems to do a nice job minimizing noise yet leaving detail intact. Normally I would never touch DNR.

Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus

Not to start another "pushing" match, but the cyan problem is the sole reason the Elite DID NOT win the shootout. Not sure where you pulled the "supposedly won" idea from, but from everything I have been reading the Elite was bested at the shootout because of the cyan problem. I.E. - It did not walk out the winner.

As has been said, D-Nice and the others present made their ratings with the TV's present as-is without speculation to future fixes of the problems present in each set. So while a fix of the cyan problem in the future will seemingly move the Elite up to the top, for the time being with what was present/observed at the shootout the Elite did not win. Has this point not gotten across to some yet?

Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus

Not to start another "pushing" match, but the cyan problem is the sole reason the Elite DID NOT win the shootout. Not sure where you pulled the "supposedly won" idea from, but from everything I have been reading the Elite was bested at the shootout because of the cyan problem. I.E. - It did not walk out the winner.

Originally Posted by k_lewis

FYI- I have precision color and active contrast set to "on" - might this make a difference? I also have DNR set to "auto".

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Actually I was saying that my colors are not undersaturated, even in THX mode. Their display was and looked much different than mine. Theirs was even set to a higher color level than mine and still looked less saturated. I wonder if it had anything to do with the firmware version? I don't know if Robert's display ever got the recent firmware upgrade, although I never heard that upgrade had anything to do with color levels.

Originally Posted by andy sullivan

Ken, how would you feel about your own Elite if it was the one used in the shootout?

Originally Posted by sycore

and from a couple posts stating D-nice felt if the color was fixed the Elite would be his pick for winner.

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

For the life of me, I can't see the slightest bit of difference with precision color on & off. I've tried a variety of material and have yet to see a difference. Either way, I tend to leave controls like this off since when they do have an observable effect, it's usually negative.

Active contrast is something that you need to watch with a variety of material and see what you think of it. There are times it looks good and enhances the picture and other times it crushes shadow detail. I decided to leave it off.

With the DNR, I think I found the Auto setting was a bit too aggressive and did impact detail in some cases.

Originally Posted by ken ross

i know duane places extremely high value on absolute color accuracy, nothing wrong with that, we all should. But i suspect he was predicting the elite would be the winner because initially he was probably very impressed with it and didn't notice the cyan issue. That's precisely the point i made in my earlier post and will make again. A color error that occurs in a very narrow part of the spectrum, isn't seen very often and, most importantly, will very likely be missed by most since they have no reference as to what is 'correct', is not imo a deal break. There's no way i would change my rating as the result of that one color issue. Keep in mind that until yesterday, i was the only one seeing this issue and reporting it but still was extremely high on the display's overall picture.

Now, otoh, if the color that was whacked made every day objects appear odd (weird skin tones, oddly skewed skies, tomatoes that looked like oranges etc.), that would constitute a color decoding error that should knock a display off its pedestal. But a color that's rarely seen and when it is will almost certainly go unnoticed by the overwhelming majority of owners...well, you get where i'm going with this. Even when i asked other elite owners if they saw this issue, i didn't get a single affirmative response. Of corse when you throw up that one offending color and splash it over the screen, compare it to a bunch of displays that are getting it right, well then everyone can see it and as duane said 'it sticks out like a sore thumb'.

Bottom line? If the color cyan is a color you'll immediately recognize as being wrong and appears frequently in material you watch, then think twice before buying an elite. For me the issue shows on one particular set of the today show (which i don't normally watch anyway) and the fios tv guide. For all other material i've watched, i just don't see it. However, as i've said before, sharp needs to fix it not just for the sake of cyan, but for forums like this that will, as they always do, blow issues way out of proportion. Sharp will lose sales because the elite will be saddled with the unfair reputation (imo) of having 'inaccurate color' as opposed to the more just criticism of having inaccurate cyan. Big difference.

Now, if you value all the other picture parameters that make a display great, then you should seriously consider the elite. As i've said before, my kuro 151 hasn't been generating much heat these days in my house.

Originally Posted by sycore

Hopefully, it can be corrected and really earn its title as the reference Kuro Killer set.

Originally Posted by KLee

Samsung Galaxy Tab 7.7 has a 7.7 inch Super AMOLED display.....should be pretty mindblowing when it comes out later this year:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20...ip-new-screen/

Originally Posted by D-Nice

There is nothing slight about the cyan color point on the Elite. From 10-60% stimuli, the measured xy plot for cyan is between blue and where it actually should be. 90-100% stimuli put the xy plot between where it should be and green. The Elite also has luminance issues throughout the stimuli range that shows up in many other places.... like the color of green. Watching baseball last night and football Friday night clearly shows the luminance issues where grass looked completely desaturated and almost gray instead of green like all the other displays on the wall. Sharp is getting a detailed report of these problems and advised they will be fixed ASAP. IMO, until that happens there is no way this display can be rated #1 or even #2.

Originally Posted by ss9001

+1

At the price point of the 70" Sharp, a projector & screen starts to make more sense.

Originally Posted by AuralXTC

Holy crap man, again?! Give it a rest. It's making you look like a bit of a goofball, even if it were 100% undeniably true.

At best the Elite is equal to the 101FD/500M, so no... it's not a "Kuro Killer".

Why must everything always turn into a pissing contest. I am a fan of reference video quality, no matter where it comes from. I refuse to degenerate to petty bickering and using terms like "Kuro Killer"

People on both sides of the fence; Elite/KURO and LCD/Plasma alike... you really need to get over yourselves!

That goes for plenty of you here in this thread... it's hysterical!

Originally Posted by Scottyb09

I watched most of the first night's shoot-out and have read multiple posts about it. I am taking delivery of a 60" Elite on Friday and want to ensure that my 'plan of attack' is sound. My understanding is the following: 1) Upon properly mounting my set (which will be in the same place as the Panasonic it's replacing - no off-angle viewing), I will set it to THX Movie mode and put the motion handling on 120hz low, 2) I will wait until a potential firmward update which will (hopefully) fix the cyan/teal issue, 3) I plan to have the display ISF calibrated after the firmware update in two modes - ISF1 for normal/dark environment viewing and ISF2 for 3D viewing in the same type of environment. For both calibrations, the ISF calibrator will likely have to desaturate the yellow due to the oversaturation of the yellow pixel (at least according to Kevin Miller). Am I missing anything here based upon what is known so far about the set?

Thanks

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Thanks Geickel, try these on the 60. It doesn't get rid of the cyan issue but it does make it somewhat less severe, but other colors look pretty good to my eye:

Local Dimming- On
OPC- Off
Backlight- Standard
Contrast +32
Brightness (-2)
Color +8
Tint 0
Sharpness +1

CMS Hue:
R (-4)
Y 0
G 0
C (-10)
B +10
M 0

CMS Saturation:
G +10
(all others at default)

CMS Value:
C (-5)
(all others at default)

Color Temp:
No changes

Motion Setting: Off

Precision Color: Off

Active Contrast: Off

Film: Off

DNR: Medium

Just as a side note, I've found the noise reduction on the Elite to be more effective than some others I've had on other displays over the years. It seems to do a nice job minimizing noise yet leaving detail intact. Normally I would never touch DNR.

Originally Posted by Jonesy11

The results are up on the Value Electronics page, The Elite is truly the winner, see here: click where it says 2011 shootout results.

I note that the Elite is rated the lowest for color accuracy, but still comes out the winner, so I guess if they fix the color, it would be even farther ahead. Having just viewed one for a few hours, I was VERY impressed, as compared to my KRP-500M. The color issue was obvious to me watching Avatar BD, but otherwise this is amazing, especially for an LCD. I do not like edge enhancement or motion issues created by most LCDs, and these seemed almost totally absent on the Elite. And the 3D seems far ahead of anything on the market. Still prefer my 500M though.