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Official Sharp Elite PRO-70X5 and 60X5 Owners Thread - Page 100

post #2971 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Interesting theory Dave. However my experience with it seems to show a fluctuation in those 'featureless areas' where there appears to be no changes in the signal's luminance. So I'm not sure what the 'pulsing' would be responding to.

But who knows, perhaps as you say there is a 'tipping point' and the amount of change to cause the tip might be so small as to go unnoticed, but enough to cause a visible change in the LD.

The "featureless areas" comment is what prompted my observation comments. Seems a blank wall etc. is similar to a gamma/grayscale test pattern i.e a solid featureless mass but a shade of gray rather than some dim color. A very small change in light output and what I saw was a 1/2 of 1% change on a scale 0f 1 to 100 caused the tipping point to happen.

An other thought relative to this is what is the light output point where local dimming starts to become active. No need for it to be active other than at lower light levels. Perhaps the trigger point is around 30 IRE (%).
post #2972 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiff69 View Post

It is a good show! Have you decided what you might be watching it on in the near future?

I had some travels in October or else I probably would've already ordered the Elite 70". I have to confess some of these negative reports are giving me a bit of trepidation. But really, it's more that I have to loop back with a couple of dealers to discuss terms so I can make my decision of where to buy.

The fact the Sony 65" is now shipping complicates things a little bit because it would have slightly higher WAF, but it's more my laziness on talking to dealers than anything.
post #2973 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

ok....so explain to me when ld is off there is no more issues.

As soon as you can explain to me why the issue completely disappears with local dimming ON but with motion settings OFF. I have confirmed this to be the case on multiple occasions. It's not an LD issue that I can see, it's a motion issue that wreaks havoc with the noise levels. The "pulsing" isn't the LEDs, it's a rapid increase and decrease in noise levels that make it look like the brightness if fluctuating.
post #2974 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

Quick question....

Are the CMS/gamma/grayscale settings per input per AV mode? Or just per input?

Nobody knows this??
post #2975 of 14514
Just wanted to let everyone know that I should be getting my elite tomorrow the 70 incher!!!!!!! So excited I'll take a few pics if anybody wants to see them.
post #2976 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigballermike99 View Post

Just wanted to let everyone know that I should be getting my elite tomorrow the 70 incher!!!!!!! So excited I'll take a few pics if anybody wants to see them.

send Pix !
post #2977 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZREOSpecialist View Post


As soon as you can explain to me why the issue completely disappears with local dimming ON but with motion settings OFF. I have confirmed this to be the case on multiple occasions. It's not an LD issue that I can see, it's a motion issue that wreaks havoc with the noise levels. The "pulsing" isn't the LEDs, it's a rapid increase and decrease in noise levels that make it look like the brightness if fluctuating.

I think you may be onto something. This is precisely the effect I see on my Pioneer Kuro and similar to the effect I see on the Elite. It's very hard to tell if it's fluctuations in noise or brightness.

I'll try playing with the motion settings tonight.
post #2978 of 14514
Robert @VE reports that the color issue is currently being worked on in Japan and a fix is expected within 2-3 weeks. That's good news and a big thank you to Robert for that info!
post #2979 of 14514
Again, direct from Robert, the discrete on/off codes are now available.

Email Robert @VE directly for this info.
post #2980 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The only thing that concerns me is the fact that the shootout display also looked washed out and yet I've never seen that on in-store displays or my own. Could there be some random sets that have this issue or is it more likely setups/settings at fault?

Ken, I was at the shootout also, and to my eyes the Elite looked a little washed out color-wise compared to several other TVs. I even discussed this with a few people there. A couple weeks ago I went to to a BB/Magnolia and they had the Elite 60 inch on a wall with some other high end TVs. The color on the Elite again looked totally washed. I'm not talking contrast ratio or black level as both of those looked excellent - this was a color issue very noticeable in people's faces and just about anything with strong colors on the screen. The Sharp 70" 735 was right below the Elite and the color looked way better. I was talking with the saleswoman and she changed the mode from Movie THX to Elite Pure. The Elite at the shootout was also in Movie THX because there is a problem calibrating in the ISF modes (LD can't be on to do the calibrations in these modes). Anyway, when the Magnolia TV switched to Elite Pure, it was like a night and day difference with the Elite now having color very similar in saturation to the other TVs and looking beautiful. You could debate whether the color was better between these displays but they were all in the ballpark whereas the Elite in Movie THX was not in that ballpark. So I thought maybe there was a color saturation issue in Movie THX mode, but owners have not really reported this. Maybe it is on unit by unit basis, but I thought it strange that the two times I saw the TV (not an owner yet but interested) it looked undersaturated in Movie THX mode.
post #2981 of 14514
Pete, it may well be. On my display I see no significant change in color saturation going from THX mode to non-THX mode. So could there be some sample to sample variation? Possibly.

Fortunately it seems that for the people that own the set on this and another forum, it's quite rare as you've seen. At any rate we're getting closer to a color fix, so we'll see how that impacts these issues.
post #2982 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZREOSpecialist View Post

As soon as you can explain to me why the issue completely disappears with local dimming ON but with motion settings OFF. I have confirmed this to be the case on multiple occasions. It's not an LD issue that I can see, it's a motion issue that wreaks havoc with the noise levels. The "pulsing" isn't the LEDs, it's a rapid increase and decrease in noise levels that make it look like the brightness if fluctuating.

The plot thickens. I played with the motion settings using my favorite test show, NCIS on my DVR.

Changing the motion settings from none to a variety of different levels, I saw no evidence of the flicker when in THX mode. But again, as soon as I went to non-THX mode, I saw flicker regardless of whether I had motion settings on or off.
post #2983 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by peka j. View Post


Ken, I was at the shootout also, and to my eyes the Elite looked a little washed out color-wise compared to several other TVs. I even discussed this with a few people there. A couple weeks ago I went to to a BB/Magnolia and they had the Elite 60 inch on a wall with some other high end TVs. The color on the Elite again looked totally washed. I'm not talking contrast ratio or black level as both of those looked excellent - this was a color issue very noticeable in people's faces and just about anything with strong colors on the screen. The Sharp 70" 735 was right below the Elite and the color looked way better. I was talking with the saleswoman and she changed the mode from Movie THX to Elite Pure. The Elite at the shootout was also in Movie THX because there is a problem calibrating in the ISF modes (LD can't be on to do the calibrations in these modes). Anyway, when the Magnolia TV switched to Elite Pure, it was like a night and day difference with the Elite now having color very similar in saturation to the other TVs and looking beautiful. You could debate whether the color was better between these displays but they were all in the ballpark whereas the Elite in Movie THX was not in that ballpark. So I thought maybe there was a color saturation issue in Movie THX mode, but owners have not really reported this. Maybe it is on unit by unit basis, but I thought it strange that the two times I saw the TV (not an owner yet but interested) it looked undersaturated in Movie THX mode.

Being an employee at Best Buy/Magnolia, I specifically remember the colors eing washed on the 60" when we first installed it...I was impressed by black levels, but not by the color. I increased the color shortly after, and was a lot more satisfied. The Elite displays DO look somewhat "washed" in THX mode factory settings. For both of our displays, this is alleviated by applying Ken's settings. Also, judging the Elite against other displays in the Magnolia showroom is not a fair assessment, as all of the others are waaaaayyyy oversaturated...and Elite Pure is oversaturated with too much contrast, and in my experience crushes shadow detail...don't like it, but haven't tried tweaking it.
post #2984 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geickel View Post

Being an employee at Best Buy/Magnolia, I specifically remember the colors eing washed on the 60" when we first installed it...I was impressed by black levels, but not by the color. I increased the color shortly after, and was a lot more satisfied. The Elite displays DO look somewhat "washed" in THX mode factory settings. For both of our displays, this is alleviated by applying Ken's settings. Also, judging the Elite against other displays in the Magnolia showroom is not a fair assessment, as all of the others are waaaaayyyy oversaturated...and Elite Pure is oversaturated with too much contrast, and in my experience crushes shadow detail...don't like it, but haven't tried tweaking it.

Couldn't agree more. Visiting almost any BB reveals sets that are generally way oversaturated. So using that as a standard is probably not too wise. But yes, upping the color to +6 does take care of any undersaturation issues.
post #2985 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinktri View Post

Short comparisonFirst a little background, I've owned a Pioneer 600m ISF unlocked used in daytime mode for about 3 years now. Also own Panasonic 42inch plasma for bedroom use and a 50inch Panasonic TH-50PH9UK which the Elite is replacing. I guess you can say I'm a plasma guy but ONLY because plasma's were considered the best and the best is what I want. If LCD's were the best back in 2008 I would have owned 3 of them but that was arguably not the case. When hearing the new Sharp elite was the Kuro killer I had to have it.
I took delivery of airgas1998's 60 inch on Sunday and spent 7hrs tweaking/watching/enjoying the Elite. I know it's only 7hrs but here are my impressions so far. Out of the box I reset all setting back to factory and started with Glenee's settings, went straight to food network and found brightness I did not have with my 600m. Please note the 600m is roughly 25 feet away and 4 steps down from the elite so a comparison back and forth was done numerous times. Cable feed is Comcast using a Motorola DCX3400 on both sets.
Cable- I thought the Elite looked washed out compared to the 600m. The depth of color and fluidness/smoothness was not there with the elite. I watched the most of the Chargers/Chiefs game and found the 600m much more pleasing to my eye. Going back and forth between the game, food network, and other HD shows I found the elite lacked in depth. Sure it had the brightness and pop but something was missing. Also tried Ken's settings and found some improvement but not near enough to match the 600m. For some reason the football game looked really washed out on the elite. As if there was a white haze or fog on the field. On the 600m the game looked deep, the chiefs red looked red and the chargers white looked bright white with a little pearl in it. On the elite the field and uniforms looked dry and had no depth, I felt like I was watching the game on a computer screen. Motion was no comparison, the 600m blew it away, not much more to say there.
Bluray- PS3 on both sets. Both displays were fed from my media server with ripped blurays. Spent about 1 hr with blurays before calling it a night so I'll update later but the elite was much improved. Blacks are very black and the brightness was excellent. More to come with movies and games..
So far with cable television my vote goes towards the 600m. I hope things will improve with settings tweaks and maybe I have something wrong in my setup (HDMI from box straight to TV) but for now it is what it is. If anyone can recommend settings or would be kind enough to share settings I would appreciate it. Also anyone in the Chicagoland area (north burbs) who wants to check out or compare my sets is more than welcome to come by. BTW, I haven't seen the flickering yet but believe me I'm looking for it.

edit: wanted to say thanks to airgas!

This is probably very basic information, but if there is an A/V receiver/switcher between your video component and the TV, make sure that AVR is set to pass-thru the signal without upscaling and also make sure it is set to the same color mode as all of your other components. I have a 5 year old Denon AVR that I've set to signal pass-thru mode (no scaling) and YCbCr color space.
post #2986 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhtatum View Post

The grass looks different in almost every football game I have watched. Sometimes its a little washed out and sometimes its very green. Kinda like real grass! I know the color can technically be improved on the Elite but the variance is also directly related to channel and time of day of the game. Night games generally look better to me.

I wonder if anyone even considered the possibility that the grass actually looked that way and the Elite was showing a truer picture than any of the other panels... LOL
post #2987 of 14514
I stopped in there the other night and it was very quiet in MHT section of the store, the 70" elite was on but on a bluray title screen so could not really enjoy it. I'll have to go back when I have more time and see it in action.
post #2988 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by peka j. View Post

Ken, I was at the shootout also, and to my eyes the Elite looked a little washed out color-wise compared to several other TVs. I even discussed this with a few people there. A couple weeks ago I went to to a BB/Magnolia and they had the Elite 60 inch on a wall with some other high end TVs. The color on the Elite again looked totally washed. I'm not talking contrast ratio or black level as both of those looked excellent - this was a color issue very noticeable in people's faces and just about anything with strong colors on the screen. The Sharp 70" 735 was right below the Elite and the color looked way better. I was talking with the saleswoman and she changed the mode from Movie THX to Elite Pure. The Elite at the shootout was also in Movie THX because there is a problem calibrating in the ISF modes (LD can't be on to do the calibrations in these modes). Anyway, when the Magnolia TV switched to Elite Pure, it was like a night and day difference with the Elite now having color very similar in saturation to the other TVs and looking beautiful. You could debate whether the color was better between these displays but they were all in the ballpark whereas the Elite in Movie THX was not in that ballpark. So I thought maybe there was a color saturation issue in Movie THX mode, but owners have not really reported this. Maybe it is on unit by unit basis, but I thought it strange that the two times I saw the TV (not an owner yet but interested) it looked undersaturated in Movie THX mode.

I don't think THX mode is appropriate for everything. I can see where that is appropriate for certain kinds of film content, where you want that "film" look, but Elite Pure offers a tremendous picture for film as well as video content. The image is much more powerful and "in your face" than anything I've seen in THX mode. I rarely watch anything in THX mode - it's washed out and yellow.

Let your eyes be the judge...
post #2989 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The plot thickens. I played with the motion settings using my favorite test show, NCIS on my DVR.

Changing the motion settings from none to a variety of different levels, I saw no evidence of the flicker when in THX mode. But again, as soon as I went to non-THX mode, I saw flicker regardless of whether I had motion settings on or off.

I watched a scene from Frasier that was streamed in 1080p via Netflix. I saw the pulsing occurring on one of the background walls, so I disabled all film and motion processing and replayed the same section. PROBLEM GONE!

This is pure madness! Has anyone noticed if this problem occurs after powering up the TV and NOT touching any video settings prior to the problem appearing? I'm wondering if changing any video setting, no matter how unrelated, may corrupt the data variables in other settings until the TV is power cycled. There was an issue in the original 60" firmware that caused some strange dimming behavior when switching picture modes that was resolved in a later firmware release. The affected users noted that once they power cycled the set, the problem disappeared.

Or maybe someone at Sharp is remotely connected to our TVs and messing with us! LOL
post #2990 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

Nobody knows this??

They are per mode. Once you get a mode looking the way you like it, it can be applied to any input by selecting that mode for that input.
Hope this help's
post #2991 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by imws View Post

I stopped in there the other night and it was very quiet in MHT section of the store, the 70" elite was on but on a bluray title screen so could not really enjoy it. I'll have to go back when I have more time and see it in action.

It's funny you say that. The MHT in Huntington, L.I. almost always has their 70" Elite displaying a BD title screen. In fact the only time I saw it in action was when it was playing a 3D movie for which there were no glasses available.

Now that makes sense doesn't it?
post #2992 of 14514
[quote=AZREOSpecialist;21155815There was an issue in the original 60" firmware that caused some strange dimming behavior when switching picture modes that was resolved in a later firmware release. The affected users noted that once they power cycled the set, the problem disappeared.

[/QUOTE]

Airgas and I were constantly harping on that back then. You'd change the picture settings (e.g. THX to non-THX, to Pure) and then all of a sudden the picture would dim about 80% and not restore until you either cycled the TV on & off or went back in to the picture settings and started cycling those again.

As you said, the software release fixed that immediately. However this pulsing issue is different and I don't think dependent on the act of changing settings. If I leave the TV in non-THX mode and power cycle, I'll still get the pulsing regardless.

If I have it in THX mode and start changing picture settings, but return to THX mode, I'll never see the pulsing. For me at least it's THX mode without the issue and non-THX movie mode with the issue. Again, even then it's not something that's seen very often.
post #2993 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It's funny you say that. The MHT in Huntington, L.I. almost always has their 70" Elite displaying a BD title screen. In fact the only time I saw it in action was when it was playing a 3D movie for which there were no glasses available.

Now that makes sense doesn't it?

It happens a lot in the smaller best buys from what I've seen. I love that they have blu-rays instead of the terrible mixed feed, but can't you just select repeat? Please?
post #2994 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I had some travels in October or else I probably would've already ordered the Elite 70". I have to confess some of these negative reports are giving me a bit of trepidation. But really, it's more that I have to loop back with a couple of dealers to discuss terms so I can make my decision of where to buy.

The fact the Sony 65" is now shipping complicates things a little bit because it would have slightly higher WAF, but it's more my laziness on talking to dealers than anything.

I got to travel some in October too. It was pretty fun to be on vacation and periodically check in on AVS to witness all the drama over the shootout.

I finally decided on the 70 - I'm hoping I don't find it too big actually, but how often does that happen? I like the 65 929, but I got a very good deal and once you nullify the price difference between the two, well then...
post #2995 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiff69 View Post


I got to travel some in October too. It was pretty fun to be on vacation and periodically check in on AVS to witness all the drama over the shootout.

I finally decided on the 70 - I'm hoping I don't find it too big actually, but how often does that happen? I like the 65 929, but I got a very good deal and once you nullify the price difference between the two, well then...

Spiff, in all the years I've been on AVS, I can't recall anyone saying they should have gotten a smaller unit. Even if your initial reaction is that it seems too large, give it a few days and watch it shrink. It's almost magical.
post #2996 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Spiff, in all the years I've been on AVS, I can't recall anyone saying they should have gotten a smaller unit. Even if your initial reaction is that it seems too large, give it a few days and watch it shrink. It's almost magical.

You know, me neither, lol! Half of it is the WAF too. It's going to be fun to see her reaction (I mean that sincerely, she's super great ).
post #2997 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It's funny you say that. The MHT in Huntington, L.I. almost always has their 70" Elite displaying a BD title screen. In fact the only time I saw it in action was when it was playing a 3D movie for which there were no glasses available.

Now that makes sense doesn't it?

Or maybe a customer grabbed the glasses and didn't put them back? Maybe stolen? I know my buddy told me they had both remotes and glasses out in his store and the remotes are now gone and they've gone through over 4 pairs of glasses, not including the free ones.
post #2998 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiff69 View Post


I got to travel some in October too. It was pretty fun to be on vacation and periodically check in on AVS to witness all the drama over the shootout.

I finally decided on the 70 - I'm hoping I don't find it too big actually, but how often does that happen? I like the 65 929, but I got a very good deal and once you nullify the price difference between the two, well then...

I apologize on behalf of the corporation that I work for that you have had any bad experience with any Mag store. As far as the "no glasses" thing goes, any BB employee can come into Mag and give a demo. Things move around so much that sometimes it's impossible to keep things where they should be, especially since the restructure a couple of years ago that left Magnolia without any dedicated employee "zoned" in the department. If you are in the KC area, come pay me a visit.
post #2999 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinktri View Post

Yes Ken washed out is what I see, as if there's a white haze/smoke or too much contrast. My 600m is ISF unlocked and currently use the daytime setting with very very minor tweak. Haven't messed with it in a couple years since it looks great. Again my apologies as I may have made my review prematurely, if you like I can take it down until I investigate more. I truly believe something is up with the color space setting on my cable box but I'm currently at work and unable to check (it's killing me). I will update when I get home.


While your review may be a bit premature, I think Ken is okay with it staying up, for now. Everyone just needs to keep in mind that any perceived issues (clouding? flickering?) will likely be attributed to source, improper settings/setup, or faulty wiring in your house.

As far as the cyan "issue", this one is so insignificant that Ken himself was the only one to notice it initially, & even he has since confirmed that it's not a big deal. Viewers who see certain NFL jersey colors as being a shade off only see it this way because they already know what color those uniforms are supposed to be. Otherwise, this is not a problem AT ALL, and will be even less so once Sharp issues the fix for it.
post #3000 of 14514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post


Or maybe a customer grabbed the glasses and didn't put them back? Maybe stolen? I know my buddy told me they had both remotes and glasses out in his store and the remotes are now gone and they've gone through over 4 pairs of glasses, not including the free ones.

But if you're the manager and that happens, what would you do? If it's me, I walk over to the display and either take the display out of 3D mode or simply swap it out for a non-3D movie. Why would you continue to let the most expensive display in the store continue to play something that's virtually unwatchable?
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