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Official Sharp Elite PRO-70X5 and 60X5 Owners Thread - Page 237

post #7081 of 13287
2/16/12 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

^^^ it's not that CNET's settings are wrong. It's due to the variance between units the settings are different. Hence the reason one can't just copy other people's setting and calling it "calibrated"

I couldn't agree more David. It's only gets you in to the ballpark, but even that ballpark can look pretty awesome.
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post #7082 of 13287
2/16/12 at 8:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

If the source was supposed to have a yellowish cast on your last set and didn't, it wasn't displaying the material properly. Kevin and I had a discussion on this and he acknowledged how people just don't recognize this frequently used 'artistic' use of color. As I've said, I would see this same thing on my ISF'd Kuro plasma. A Blu Ray that Kevin brought over had a few scenes with the yellowish/golden cast and Kevin, intimately familiar with those scenes, said they were spot on.

It matters not at all to me what you saw on your Kuro or what you think the source is supposed to look like. Despite the fact that you think the new Elite can do no wrong I actually trust my eyes.

I tell you once. I tell you twice. What I tell you three times is true.

My flesh tones are too greenish yellow. The picture looks like crap.
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post #7083 of 13287
2/16/12 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post


It matters not at all to me what you saw on your Kuro or what you think the source is supposed to look like. Despite the fact that you think the new Elite can do no wrong I actually trust my eyes.

I tell you once. I tell you twice. What I tell you three times is true.

My flesh tones are too greenish yellow. The picture looks like crap.

I think you're being a little unfair. Ken has acknowledged issues with his set. Although he seems to have better results in thx mode with pulsing than most, he still admits to having it in other modes. in regards to your issue on having "greenish yellowish" skin tones, I don't think Ken has ever implied that you are just flat out wrong. He simply tried to give you a possible reason for this. If it isn't the reason, so be it, and maybe something is definitely off on your set? For the record my set isn't experiencing weird colored flesh tones either.
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post #7084 of 13287
2/16/12 at 8:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post


It matters not at all to me what you saw on your Kuro or what you think the source is supposed to look like. Despite the fact that you think the new Elite can do no wrong I actually trust my eyes.

I tell you once. I tell you twice. What I tell you three times is true.

My flesh tones are too greenish yellow. The picture looks like crap.

Did I ever say the Elite can do no wrong? Have I not acknowledged both the cyan error and the pulsing?

I frequently go to the movies and I often see this same yellowish cast. I don't think the projectors are also rendering the colors improperly. I too trust my eyes as well as those of one of the most respected calibrators.

I suspect your calibrations are off or there may be something wrong with your unit, but I also suspect you don't want to hear that. I'm only trying to be helpful, but I shall cease and desist.
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post #7085 of 13287
2/16/12 at 8:50pm
I'm talking out of the box settings. No calibration. Nada. As far as something being wrong with my set, I thought that's what I said when I remarked that the amount of blue in my out of the box settings had increased. I have no doubt there's something wrong with my set. Our difference is that I think that problems are more common in the Elite than you seem to.

I would appreciate your being helpful. It is not helpful when I tell you my picture looks like crap and you tell me it's supposed to be that way.
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post #7086 of 13287
2/16/12 at 8:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I couldn't agree more David. It's only gets you in to the ballpark, but even that ballpark can look pretty awesome.

The awesome looking ballpark can only be achieved with higher end displays where the variance are not too far apart. On lower end or entry level displays, the variance are so far apart often time copying other people's settings can actually make the picture a lot worse
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post #7087 of 13287
2/16/12 at 9:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

AVSHD. Greyscale tracks and looks fine. Colors look fine at 75%. Faces tend toward pale and yellow/greenish.

Everyone says "it's the source" but the funny thing is faces weren't yellowish with the last set....

It really sounds like there's something wrong with your color decoder or something along that area. I am getting awesome color depth and snap, and any yellowish / redish tendencies on skin tones are gone.

My CNET WB temp as posted was in the low 7000's. My calibrated temp is 6583 @ 70% grey.

It's weird that your greyscale looks neutral across the board from 0% to 100%, i.e. actually grey with no coloring and the proper gamma scaling, and your actual content color is so way off .
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post #7088 of 13287
2/16/12 at 9:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

There's no substitute for a professional ISF calibration by a pro like Kevin Miller. Kevin did my Elite today and although I thought the picture couldn't get any better, Kevin proved me wrong.

Fortunately my biggest fear about pulsing in ISF mode, was unfounded. I showed Kevin my NCIS test scene that nicely demonstrates the pulsing in non-THX movie mode. I showed him the same scene in THX mode and he confirmed my observations, it was gone in THX mode. We both confirmed there was no trace of the pulsing in these same scenes when he completed his ISF calibration.

In comparing Kevin's ISF settings with my THX settings (CNET), it was pretty apparent the color temp was initially too high (7500) and some colors were not within their targets. Gamma was also off. Despite this, Kevin agreed the picture was pretty spectacular with some of the material I showed him. With his ISF settings in place, the picture quality was raised to the next level. Flesh tones are stunning.

I'm with you Ken. Keving did in a few hours what I'm approaching in days . There's as much art as science in calibrating - it's just not dial-in the numbers. There are many ways of making the numbers look good but they can give different visual results, e.g. raise the luminance by using saturation or value. An experienced calibrator knows which ones are best.

Flipping through DirecTV right now I'm looking at Sarah Jessica Parker's skin tones in Sex and the City II, and they look great, no tints (this as well as Something Borrowed and You Will Meet a Tall Dark Stranger, and pretty much any Woody Allen movie, have good neutral skin tones).
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post #7089 of 13287
2/16/12 at 9:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

There's no substitute for a professional ISF calibration by a pro like Kevin Miller. Kevin did my Elite today and although I thought the picture couldn't get any better, Kevin proved me wrong.

Fortunately my biggest fear about pulsing in ISF mode, was unfounded. I showed Kevin my NCIS test scene that nicely demonstrates the pulsing in non-THX movie mode. I showed him the same scene in THX mode and he confirmed my observations, it was gone in THX mode. We both confirmed there was no trace of the pulsing in these same scenes when he completed his ISF calibration.

In comparing Kevin's ISF settings with my THX settings (CNET), it was pretty apparent the color temp was initially too high (7500) and some colors were not within their targets. Gamma was also off. Despite this, Kevin agreed the picture was pretty spectacular with some of the material I showed him. With his ISF settings in place, the picture quality was raised to the next level. Flesh tones are stunning.

Does his report show color tracking at 25, 50, 75 and 100% intensities?

Thanks
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post #7090 of 13287
2/16/12 at 9:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

There's no substitute for a professional ISF calibration by a pro like Kevin Miller. Kevin did my Elite today and although I thought the picture couldn't get any better, Kevin proved me wrong.

Fortunately my biggest fear about pulsing in ISF mode, was unfounded. I showed Kevin my NCIS test scene that nicely demonstrates the pulsing in non-THX movie mode. I showed him the same scene in THX mode and he confirmed my observations, it was gone in THX mode. We both confirmed there was no trace of the pulsing in these same scenes when he completed his ISF calibration.
In comparing Kevin's ISF settings with my THX settings (CNET), it was pretty apparent the color temp was initially too high (7500) and some colors were not within their targets. Gamma was also off. Despite this, Kevin agreed the picture was pretty spectacular with some of the material I showed him. With his ISF settings in place, the picture quality was raised to the next level. Flesh tones are stunning.



So what does this say about the pulsing issue? It looks like it is not likely related to hardware but software and can you confirm that you haven't been able to replicate it since then on other scenes in the same calibrated ISF modes?
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post #7091 of 13287
2/17/12 at 3:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post


The awesome looking ballpark can only be achieved with higher end displays where the variance are not too far apart. On lower end or entry level displays, the variance are so far apart often time copying other people's settings can actually make the picture a lot worse

FWIW, Kevin told me he has ISF'd about 10 or so Elites, and they've all been pretty tight in performance. So that's consistent with your thought.
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post #7092 of 13287
2/17/12 at 3:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

I'm talking out of the box settings. No calibration. Nada. As far as something being wrong with my set, I thought that's what I said when I remarked that the amount of blue in my out of the box settings had increased. I have no doubt there's something wrong with my set. Our difference is that I think that problems are more common in the Elite than you seem to.

I would appreciate your being helpful. It is not helpful when I tell you my picture looks like crap and you tell me it's supposed to be that way.

Of course i didn't say that. All I said was that the yellowish cast you always mention is often seen in many stylized movies as well as some TV shows. I have also mentioned that it's easy to check if your issue is across the board by simply checking news broadcasts like the CBS Morning News (a set that is gorgeous, beautifully lit with stunning colors and had Kevin's jaw dropping), NBC Nightly News etc. If you still see the yellow skin tones then there is certainly something wrong with either your calibration or display. Shows like many seen on Discovery, Nat Geo etc., that are videotaped, are another good way to check.

Of course you can also have your display professionally ISF'd to remove any element of doubt.
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post #7093 of 13287
2/17/12 at 3:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post


Does his report show color tracking at 25, 50, 75 and 100% intensities?

Thanks

I will check later or better yet, post. I do know that we saw cyan leave the farm at lower luminance levels, so that didn't improve that much...although it was a bit better than my initial THX settings.
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post #7094 of 13287
2/17/12 at 3:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chere View Post


So what does this say about the pulsing issue? It looks like it is not likely related to hardware but software and can you confirm that you haven't been able to replicate it since then on other scenes in the same calibrated ISF modes?

I'll tell you, Kevin and I sat there and scratched our heads on that one. It seems apparent that although it's related to LD, a different algorithm is used for LD in THX and ISF modes. Watching last night, I saw no evidence of the pulsing. So yes, it does seem to be a software issue and not hardware.
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post #7095 of 13287
2/17/12 at 6:58am
I have an Elite Pro 70. Has anyone had trouble turning the set on and off using the remote? I seem to have to use the on switch on the back side of the TV everytime I turn it on. The remote doesn't seem to work on that function. As far as turning it off, it turns itself off with no input after a short period of time. However, if I try and turn the set off using the remote, it doesn't work. Any idea what I am doing wrong? I have used the remote for all my settings, and it worked fine.
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post #7096 of 13287
2/17/12 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfvaxman View Post

Hi everyone. I am a new member and really excited about my new Elite 60". What an incredible picture!! I am still learning more and more about the features so I will do some reading on the past forum postings to see what has already been said. I saw an earlier post about accessing the internet which kind of answers something that I have been spending a lot of time trying to figure out. That is how do you enter a URL into the browser. I guess the answer is, YOU DON"T. Bummer, especially since the manual talks about it. I was going to call technical support but it sounds like it won't do any good. I was hoping that I could watch one of the past debates from over the internet on my TV. I guess that ain't going to work. I am looking forward to hearing more of everyone's experiences with the TV and I will be sharing mine.

I hooked up my laptop to the TV and it works great. I actually keep the connection wires attached to the back of the TV so that all I need to do is connect the video and plug in the audio connection to the laptop. Then you just change the source on the TV and you are off an running. Takes about a minute to hook it up. The picture completely fills the screen and the sound comes out across the TV or amp speakers. This is perfect for web browsing and much easier to enter the URL then trying to use the DNS solution.
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post #7097 of 13287
2/17/12 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

It matters not at all to me what you saw on your Kuro or what you think the source is supposed to look like. Despite the fact that you think the new Elite can do no wrong I actually trust my eyes.

I tell you once. I tell you twice. What I tell you three times is true.

My flesh tones are too greenish yellow. The picture looks like crap.

For the record I also have no idea what you are talking about. Initially when I tried THX I thought flesh tones tended towards yellow, but after using the CNET settings everything looks great. I mean come on... every TV needs to be adjusted to suit either a calibration standard or your personal tastes. If you think your set is defective, then have it serviced. I fail to see why your issue requires saying negative things about anyone in this forum.
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post #7098 of 13287
2/17/12 at 10:09am
For those interested in my calibration (pdf too large to post):

http://www.mediafire.com/file/tmmwe7m667k3lbz/Ross
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post #7099 of 13287
2/17/12 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

For those interested in my calibration (pdf too large to post):

http://www.mediafire.com/file/tmmwe7m667k3lbz/Ross

Thanks for the post Ken.

What settings were used for that pre-cal snapshot? Was that from default THX or CNet? The pre-cal snap shot seems more off than that posted by some reviewers.
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post #7100 of 13287
2/17/12 at 10:42am
What did I say negative about Ken?

I am not the only person who has mentioned the propensity of the Elite to display yellowish skin tones. Every time I mention it, however, he chimes in with an explanation of how it's the source because that look is used as an artistic effect. I'm not saying that's not true for some source but then I'm also not complaining about something I only see in some sources. But assuming it's the source is completely unhelpful. And certainly hearing that "explanation" once was more than enough.

I don't want to say anything bad about Ken. I just want him to stop explaining that there probably isn't anything wrong with my settings because it's likely the source. I would appreciate a discussion of what could be causing yellow skin tones and what might help alleviate it. If everyone reads his "It's the source, Luke" explanation and blows off the problem I'll never get that discussion. The normal explanation of using the "tone" control says to move it one way if skin is too red and the other way if it's too yellow. But the tone control adjusts more than one thing at a time so I'm not sure how that insight might translate into the CMS controls.

Of course, I've also got advice from Tom Huffman to not even bother using the CMS because it doesn't help much and might actually hurt. So I'm just unclear on what approach I should be taking in calibrating this beast. All I'm certain of is that blaming the source accomplishes nothing.
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post #7101 of 13287
2/17/12 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

For those interested in my calibration (pdf too large to post):

http://www.mediafire.com/file/tmmwe7m667k3lbz/Ross

Ken, maybe I'm missing it, but did Kevin check color tracking? This is where the issues are - not how the set hits the point in the triangle at tested intensity only, but as you check various intensity levels.

Perhaps it's inn a different report? Or maybe Spectracal doesn't offer this - I don't know...

In the eval of my set, there were primary and secondary saturations and luminance values that should had been 50% tracking like 25%, 25% near 10%, etc...


Thanks
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post #7102 of 13287
2/17/12 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weaselboy View Post

Thanks for the post Ken.

What settings were used for that pre-cal snapshot? Was that from default THX or CNet? The pre-cal snap shot seems more off than that posted by some reviewers.

CNET settings.
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post #7103 of 13287
2/17/12 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

I don't want to say anything bad about Ken. I just want him to stop explaining that there probably isn't anything wrong with my settings because it's likely the source.

It sounds to me, an outsider to these discussions, that you are saying that Ken should not replay to your complaints with additional possibilities. I read Ken's suggestions to you as helpful things to check in order to determine if you have a defective set. You seem to think he's telling you that you're not seeing what you believe that you're seeing.

I don't plan on ever owning a LCD display so I don't have any pride of ownership, but I would give you the same advice that Ken and others have given you. What you do with it is up to you.
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post #7104 of 13287
2/17/12 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Ken, maybe I'm missing it, but did Kevin check color tracking? This is where the issues are - not how the set hits the point in the triangle at tested intensity only, but as you check various intensity levels.

Perhaps it's inn a different report? Or maybe Spectracal doesn't offer this - I don't know...

In the eval of my set, there were primary and secondary saturations and luminance values that should had been 50% tracking like 25%, 25% near 10%, etc...


Thanks

There was quite a bit of data not shown in the printout (software limitation) as Kevin told me prior to leaving. I can't tell you precisely what was done since I was fielding phone calls that were work-related during his calibration.

The bottom line is that it looks excellent in both bright & dark scenes. Sorry I can't be more specific to luminance levels.
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post #7105 of 13287
2/17/12 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

What did I say negative about Ken?

I am not the only person who has mentioned the propensity of the Elite to display yellowish skin tones. Every time I mention it, however, he chimes in with an explanation of how it's the source because that look is used as an artistic effect. I'm not saying that's not true for some source but then I'm also not complaining about something I only see in some sources. But assuming it's the source is completely unhelpful. And certainly hearing that "explanation" once was more than enough.

I don't want to say anything bad about Ken. I just want him to stop explaining that there probably isn't anything wrong with my settings because it's likely the source. I would appreciate a discussion of what could be causing yellow skin tones and what might help alleviate it. If everyone reads his "It's the source, Luke" explanation and blows off the problem I'll never get that discussion. The normal explanation of using the "tone" control says to move it one way if skin is too red and the other way if it's too yellow. But the tone control adjusts more than one thing at a time so I'm not sure how that insight might translate into the CMS controls.

Of course, I've also got advice from Tom Huffman to not even bother using the CMS because it doesn't help much and might actually hurt. So I'm just unclear on what approach I should be taking in calibrating this beast. All I'm certain of is that blaming the source accomplishes nothing.

I offered you advice. I suggested you watch some news shows to see if the same yellowish cast was there. It shouldn't be. I also suggested you consider a professional ISF calibration.

There's not much more I can say beyond that and I won't.
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post #7106 of 13287
2/17/12 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

There was quite a bit of data not shown in the printout (software limitation) as Kevin told me prior to leaving. I can't tell you precisely what was done since I was fielding phone calls that were work-related during his calibration.

The bottom line was that it looks excellent in both bright & dark scenes. Sorry I can't be more specific to luminance levels.

Thanks - too bad, as I'd be curious to see.

Perhaps the advanced color management evaluation is something offered in Chromapure and not Spectracal...
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post #7107 of 13287
2/17/12 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

There was quite a bit of data not shown in the printout (software limitation) as Kevin told me prior to leaving. I can't tell you precisely what was done since I was fielding phone calls that were work-related during his calibration.

The bottom line is that it looks excellent in both bright & dark scenes. Sorry I can't be more specific to luminance levels.

Was your firmware during calibration 2.14 or 2.16?
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post #7108 of 13287
2/17/12 at 12:05pm
2.16 Thrang. I figured there was no point taking any chances on the firmware update even though it appeared it had nothing to do with color/pulsing. I updated prior to Kevin coming over.
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post #7109 of 13287
2/17/12 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Thanks - too bad, as I'd be curious to see.

Perhaps the advanced color management evaluation is something offered in Chromapure and not Spectracal...

I think that's the case Thrang. None of the values I saw Kevin inputting in the CMS section printed out in his report. He said at the beginning I could copy them down as he went along, but I had too many work-related things going on.
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post #7110 of 13287
2/17/12 at 12:11pm
When I started programming one of the first lessons I learned is that it isn't helpful to assume that when your program doesn't work the compiler is generating bad code.

Do compilers sometimes generate bad code? Yes.
Does making that assumption help you find the bugs in your code? No.

This is an Elite forum so I am actually hoping for Elite related ideas and suggestions. I think I'm justified in saying that blaming it on the source accomplishes absolutely nothing. I will certainly accept the criticism that I could have expressed that better. At the time I was frustrated because this is the third or fourth time Ken has offered that info and no one else has even offered to guess what alternative explanations there might be. I really just wanted him to stop explaining it that way so we could proceed to talking about what settings might affect this or a different approach to calibration that might alleviate it.
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