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Official Sharp Elite PRO-70X5 and 60X5 Owners Thread - Page 294

post #8791 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneWildersHair View Post

Yes very excellent point... So what exactly is your point in continually pointing out flaws (we already know about) in a set that you don't own?

because there are certain people (a few) who continually diminish every 'flaw'...not fair to people who are debating buying this and deserve to see both sides of the coin...if I'm buying a product I want to hear the entire truth...tell me all the strengths and all the weaknesses and let me decide for myself and make an informed decision

only getting half the story is never good in any situation...I knew about the fluctuating brightness issue on my VT30 before I bought it but I bought it anyway...if I had only listened to those that said it was not a big deal/issue (and there were many) then I would have been angry...continually ranting about the positives is not fair to those that want to make an informed purchase
post #8792 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD 335 View Post

I love reading the strong statements made by both the Elite supporters and non-supporters. It's nice to see this year the VT50 winning even though I'm own an Elite panel. This gives me less expensive options when my Samsung LN52A750 dies I had a feeling the Panny would win assuming improvements were made over the VT30 (and Amazon has the 65" for a mere $2200 shipped now!). However, I'm in the same boat as Ken... the 65" is just not big enough for my current seating position. Even the 70" is barely large enough so a small part of me regrets buying the Elite. I spent about 40 minutes today at a local BBY that had the Sharp 80". After some tweaking and testing of various Blu-rays I'm familiar with, I came away impressed. Overall picture quality is very good and black levels are acceptable. This TV would make an excellent choice for people who do not need the deepest black levels and if they like to watch TV on a large screen. The 80" is a much better size for my room but I tend to watch more movies and wanted the inky blacks. Plus, the 80" 3D Sharp is currently more than what I paid for my 70" Elite.




maybe this would be big enough:
http://www.panasonic.com/business/Pl...-TH-152UX1.asp
ma
post #8793 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post


because there are certain people (a few) who continually diminish every 'flaw'...not fair to people who are debating buying this and deserve to see both sides of the coin...if I'm buying a product I want to hear the entire truth...tell me all the strengths and all the weaknesses and let me decide for myself and make an informed decision

only getting half the story is never good in any situation...I knew about the fluctuating brightness issue on my VT30 before I bought it but I bought it anyway...if I had only listened to those that said it was not a big issue (and there were many) then I would have been angry...continually ranting about the positives is not fair to those that want to make an informed purchase

And you felt the need to be that messenger of good faith? To inform these potential buyers of nothing but the negative, (some of which are completely overblown) in this particular display that you honestly have no real world experience with? Don't you think that should be best left up to the many owners including myself who have in fact posted about flaws, and concern for firmware fixes? Despite what you think you are doing, I really don't think you are helping anyone here.
post #8794 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoubear View Post


maybe this would be big enough:
http://www.panasonic.com/business/Pl...-TH-152UX1.asp
ma

People say a TV can never be too big, but I think that Panasonic might fall into the too big category. I believe the Best Buy/Magnolia store in San Carlos, CA actually has that panel on their floor for demo. It's large but the feed they put into it must be terrible since the video quality doesn't seem very good.
post #8795 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneWildersHair View Post


I too have noticed NO flashlights, or clouding on my Elite, which was/is very apparent on my Sony XBR4! Did I go on and on about how I paid 5g's at the time, and should of gotten a perfect set? No, & neither should anyone else no matter the money spent, as *every* tv has or had it's share of flaws. I personally spent about 2g's more, tax included for a set that is much bigger, and much better in every aspect, except maybe a cyan issue that I honestly cannot see. I think it's rather absurd that there are indeed *some* folks that frequent these forums just to bash this set. These same folks who aren't even owners continue to cry fowl on a product they have no intention of ever purchasing. And now these "messengers" are delighted in seeing that there are a couple newly found issues regarding the pq of the Elite. Well It's been some time now since the release of this set and it's taken this long to find these "glaring issues"... The real glaring issue here are these folks who don't seem to understand the concept of real world television watching. Most owners who've watched their sets for at least a few weeks will have probably already seen just about every flaw they are gonna see for themselves while enjoying their set. Is there really a need to come here and point out something that most of us will probably never encouter, just to virtually rub our nose in it? Put down the laptops connected to gizmos, take off the tinfoil hats and whatever else it is that you may use to measure every single aspect of the tv, & just get over it already. Fact is, it doesn't matter to us owners who wins this years shoot out. As I've already stated it's taken this many months to find these new "glaring issues" on ISF/DNR... I say no matter which set wins the shoot out, given the same time frame I'm sure there will be flaws in that mighty set too.

My attitude is if no owner has seen or reported these new issues, including many calibrators who do this for a living, it's a big yawn. I only care about the flaws we can see. Weird, huh? But it obviously gives some non-owners a misguided 'validation' that they didn't buy the display.
post #8796 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by r1dude57 View Post

I was just reporting the measurements taken by the calibrators. I would think D-nice and Kevin Miller's measurements would be correct. Even if the elite did measure .002 in real world, the blacks would appear darker than the Kuro just due to the lack of ABL and higher brightness of the picture. That is where Panasonic really improved this year, is in brightness. That along with the much lowered mll give impression of even inkier blacks. There were scenes in the shootout where the VT actually appeared darker than the Elite.

Are you saying the 50 achieved higher brightness levels than the Elite? That one I'd have to see to believe. If not then I have no idea how or why the 50 would appear to have deeper blacks in some scenes other than some settings.
post #8797 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Kenobi View Post


Same issues here from a precious XBR3 owner. Severe clouds and flashlights. It sent me running for plasma and I have not looked back until I saw the Elite at BB. I'm still making up my mind between the Elite and VT50. All my testing at BB has been in the afternoon so I plan to go back this week at night so the indirect sunlight from the skylights won't play a role.

I did notice that the 55VT50 they had in the dark room was connected via component... wtf?!

I doubt the component connection will effect your findings. With most equipment, I've seen little to no difference with HDMI vs component in terms of PQ. I use HDMI for the 1 wire convenience as much as anything. In fact, for those that don't mind the extra wire bulk of component, it's actually a more reliable connection as well as providing much quicker input switches.
post #8798 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post


Kevin Miller and D-Nice did talk about the mll of the elite with on screen content from last years shoot out also no where near the .0004 . readings where depending on the size of the checkerboard used ,such as 4" or 6" boxes , may have had a mll of .0015 last year on a diff display ,can't remember the exact mll # stated but sounded in line with this years mll readings ,no wild changes

Mark

Someone would have to explain to me and other owners who had both displays why, even on very dark movies, the Elite was noticeably darker and deeper. It was by no means a day and night difference, but observable nonetheless. Using a dark movie removes any impact from plasma's ABL influence.
post #8799 of 14509
Ken,

Is that in a totally blacked out room?

If so, does the difference disappear once you add just a little room lighting?
post #8800 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneWildersHair View Post


Yes very excellent point... So what exactly is your point in continually pointing out flaws (we already know about) in a set that you don't own?

There are a few that don't understand the difference between an easily observable problem and others that took nearly a year to uncover. Obviously those issues must be minor or everyone would have seen them. But when not a single person has ever mentioned it until now, no biggie. But as always, it's certain non-owners that love to rain on the owner's parade in an owner' thread.

It's that aspect of human nature I'll never understand. Why would I ever venture into an owner's thread for equipment I have no intention of purchasing? Curiosity? Perhaps initially. But then why knock the equipment with virtually every post? Utterly bizarre.
post #8801 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Ken,

Is that in a totally blacked out room?

If so, does the difference disappear once you add just a little room lighting?

Jim, yes, I tend to watch in bat-cave like conditions. But interestingly, as you bring up ambient light levels, LCDs tend to retain better 'apparent' black levels. However I suspect if you had very minimal lighting conditions the disparity would be gone.
post #8802 of 14509
I'm glad there are folks posting about the flaws and issues otherwise I would be upset if I bought an Elite and then find out that it has a flaw that is noticeable to me using "my eyes", that was dismissed here in this thread as a non-issue. We all benefit when folks talk about the pros and cons. To continually dismiss the negative with post after post where the reasoning is that if I can't see it then it doesn't exist is wrong. Some people have a trained eye and can spot anomalous behavior better than most of us, if you don't do this for a living then you don't have a trained eye period.
post #8803 of 14509
No, actually the reasoning is if nobody sees it, it's probably not an issue. The latest 'issues' are issues that nobody saw since the release of the Elite. There is a difference.

Kevin mentioned, and accurately so, there are many times issues arise on test instruments that can't be seen with actual material. Likewise as he said, you can have a perfect calibration and yet something looks wrong with the image.
post #8804 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post


Jim, yes, I tend to watch in bat-cave like conditions. But interestingly, as you bring up ambient light levels, LCDs tend to retain better 'apparent' black levels. However I suspect if you had very minimal lighting conditions the disparity would be gone.

Ken,
As you know, I own a 60" Elite and work at a Magnolia. We have the VT50 in one of our studios, and I have to admit I have had moments of envy/desire to own the Panny over my Elite. The one thing that would push me over the edge is if the black bars on letterbox content would disappear and appear as part of the bezel as well or better than my Elite in a dark room. That being said, the Elite's letterbox bars still aren't black enough FOR ME in a completely darkened room, so I have a bias light behind the panel. I really think a bias light behind the VT50 would eliminate the difference in perceived contrast between the two. Maybe I'll take my bias light in and do a test. HERE is the big difference between last year's Pannys and this year's. They are SIGNIFICANTLY brighter...like, one might confuse them for an LED brighter; and, in addition to the improved mll, they seem to not be affected by and maintain their black levels in normal overhead lighting...just don't judge them with another LED turned on and sitting at the same height in a completely darkened room, as the filter doesn't block out that light as well...although the new Pannys really do maintain their black levels in bright rooms better than any plasma I've ever seen. Add to that waaaaay less glare/reflections and superior viewing angles, and you've got an amazing display, regardless of technology. You really should give the VT50 a look, if only to see what all the fuss is about, as it is a truly impressive plasma display. If they keep on the current trajectory, the next couple of years will be exciting to watch. P.S. I DO like the Elite styling better, from a "I don't like glossy bezels" purist perspective; but the VT30's styling is attractive too, although in a more flashy sense.

Dan
post #8805 of 14509
Interesting Dan and I do respect your opinion. Yes, I definitely want to see the panel. Anyone that thinks I'm 'protecting' my investment doesn't know me too well. I change panels very frequently and have no loyalty to any brand or tech. I only buy what looks best to me. That's why I laugh at some of these posts.

But as I've said before, I'm looking for 2 more panels within the next 8-12 months. One a 70" and the other an 80" or larger. The VT50 is just too small for my needs.

With that said, how do you rate the overall PQ of both displays having seen both? I'd still find it difficult to believe that the VT50, even with the increase in brightness levels, can achieve the same full-screen brightness of the Elite. Perhaps in smaller areas yes, but if the display is asked to show a full-screen scene of snow or ice, I'd doubt the VT50 will yet match the brightness of the Elite due to the ABL.

That's one aspect of PQ that I've really really grown to like and would find hard to go back to. I'm sure it's brighter than my Pro 151 was, but I'd still feel like I'm taking a step backward in that one PQ area.
post #8806 of 14509
Hey wjgeese:

You should definitely try out some other content and double-check your settings before making any decisions. I saw what apppeared to be flashlighting once on my 70" Elite while watching a Dune blu-ray (please don't bust my balls...). It was just a terrible transfer from what I can tell. Defintely try some more blu-rays out and experiment (blu-ray direct to TV if you're going through an AVR, for example, different HDMI ports, cables, etc.)

The Elite is very revealing. If you send it a poor quality signal it will highlight every wart!

- JD


Quote:
Originally Posted by wjgeese View Post

Well after having the Sony XBR3 45" for that past 5 yrs (and dealing with the hellish 'clouds') we finally just bought the pro60...long story short..I LOVE THIS TV...but...........first night watching Underworld..no lights on, dark screen, I notice a flashlight/screen bleed in the bottom right corner....I can only really see it out of the corner of my eye (not directly when I look at it), but it's definately there. My wife doesnt see it, but after tons of homework I thought I'd pony up the cash for a TV with the blackest blacks...I didnt expect to notice this kind of issue with a $5000 tv...am I being too picky??? I know I can see it (wife thinks im crazy)...I massaged the screen (based on what I've read on other forums)...but the issue is still there. Is this known issue with this tv? Or should I just live with an AWESOME TV with inky blacks...except for the corner in a blackened room?
post #8807 of 14509
So I went to the shootout (it was me that asked about the pulsing on the first day ). Yes, the Sharp rep said that there are no more pulsing patches coming, but he also stated that the pulsing didn't show up in ISF mode. Amusingly one of the test patterns produced the pulsing problem a few hours later. I wouldn't put too much stock in his answer of no more patches, considering his insistence on a cyan patch, but I'd use this as a sign that people that are bothered (and are still owners) should push the issue with support or else pulsing might not get fixed.

As for the question about black level, there is no doubt that the Elite had better black level and better contrast than the VT50. There is no question about this, it was clearly visible at the shootout. I think the gap has been narrowed to the point where _some_ could argue its close enough in black level that its not worth the tradeoffs, but there is still a noticeable difference.

I was hoping to see my next TV at the shootout this year, but sadly that didn't happen. It seems that all the top TVs have issues that I just can't get past.

Elite - Pulsing
VT50 - I could see the flickering in both 60Hz and 96Hz modes.
E8000 - Has this really annoying habit of shutting the screen off with black content. That would be ok if it had Elite level blacks, but it doesn't. All this feature does is remind you of how not good the black level is...ALL the time. It also had flicker, but not as bad as the VT50.
ES8000 - Flashlighting was obvious, black level was really not good at all. Picture looked good in bright scenes, but that's it.

As for why I'm here posting? I'm not an Elite-hater. Actually I'm hoping that people continue to push the issues with Sharp so they get fixed and I can enjoy a 2nd generation Elite. I do think the VT50 deserved to win the shootout (by a nose), but I think Sharp has the potential to do much better.
post #8808 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffs2 View Post

As for the question about black level, there is no doubt that the Elite had better black level and better contrast than the VT50. There is no question about this, it was clearly visible at the shootout. I think the gap has been narrowed to the point where _some_ could argue its close enough in black level that its not worth the tradeoffs, but there is still a noticeable difference.

This is why I've said I put less stock in the ratings by attendees, whether is was last year or this year. At HTS, a link was posted to the "Big Picture, Big Sound" website. Over there, a Chris Boylan said this: "In my opinion. the Panasonic plasma had the best overall black levels - a deep inky black that has been improved even over last year's VT series set. This was followed closely by the Samsung plasma and then the Elite LCD."

So he claims the Elite was 3rd. Perceptions are so different and it's the old 'beauty is in the eyes of the beholder'.

On another note, I just got back from BB to have my first look-see of the VT50. I have very mixed feelings, but part of that may be due to the relatively poor placement of the display at the Magnolia section.

First off I noticed a flicker that I can't recall seeing on my Kuro. It was enough to be a bit distracting and obviously not at all related to placement.

Although the peak whites have been improved, I don't think they're even close to the Elite. They were using Avatar as their demo and the display was initially in THX night mode and I had them change it to THX day mode.

There it had more pop, but I just didn't get the same sense of depth I get with my Elite. Here it could have been a placement issue, but I'll look elsewhere for another Magnolia with better placement. When I came home I popped my Avatar disc in and the difference in depth was far from from subtle. On the other side of the VT50 was the Elite showing some nature disc. There were full-screen scenes of snow that were brilliant and believable. Very impressive. It's this dynamic range I don't see any plasma matching.

I saw a bit of motion judder on the Panny, but I saw the same thing on the Elite, so I'd say it's inherent in the disc. Comparing the scenes I saw, I saw little difference in overall color quality, but this was far from a true A/B. Likewise it was difficult for me to assess detail relative to the Elite, both were excellent.

The styling was hit & miss for me. I like the full glass application but I thought it was really brought down by the bright silver surround. I don't know why they did that, but whatever.

As I said, first impression was nice, but not a replacement for me if I were looking for that screen size. I'll try to see it at another location.
post #8809 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post



It's that aspect of human nature I'll never understand. Why would I ever venture into an owner's thread for equipment I have no intention of purchasing? Curiosity? Perhaps initially. But then why knock the equipment with virtually every post? Utterly bizarre.

Well when certain individuals doing this own the set that just fell short of beating the Elite in last years shoot out in a lot of people's minds... It gets me wondering, just who feels the need to make themselves feel better about their purchase? One could go about it in such a way. I'm not saying, I'm just saying. Btw, for the record I'm very happy owner of an Elite, I see some flaws, but again NO SET IS WITHOUT.
post #8810 of 14509
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

yup I heard that as well at the Shootout...apparently backlight bleed on the Elite?...in that case the VT50's .0018 black level (96hz) is now better then the Elite's

That's a matter of opinion, I for one can't stand the flicker in 96Hz mode on the VT50. As for the black level it's not as good as the ELITE but it's still a great display for the money.

PS: This is still a very new display, give it time and more issues will surface.
post #8811 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by imws View Post

I'm glad there are folks posting about the flaws and issues otherwise I would be upset if I bought an Elite and then find out that it has a flaw that is noticeable to me using "my eyes", that was dismissed here in this thread as a non-issue. We all benefit when folks talk about the pros and cons. To continually dismiss the negative with post after post where the reasoning is that if I can't see it then it doesn't exist is wrong. Some people have a trained eye and can spot anomalous behavior better than most of us, if you don't do this for a living then you don't have a trained eye period.

If you look through this thread, owners have posted about flaws. I agree with you 100% that this needs to be addressed. Now that said, wouldn't you rather hear about just how these flaws are *actually* seen from owners that use these sets everyday? Not from folks who read what other non-owners findings are?! That's all some of us are trying to point out. Just because you may see more posts on how much we are enjoying our displays, doesn't mean we have turned a blind eye to it's flaws. In fact some of these flaws are over blown that without special equipment most folks would never even see it. As for the flaws that are still occasionally seen like the pulsing, a lot of us still make calls to Elite support to push for a fix.
post #8812 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Are you saying the 50 achieved higher brightness levels than the Elite? That one I'd have to see to believe. If not then I have no idea how or why the 50 would appear to have deeper blacks in some scenes other than some settings.

No, the VT50 is considerably brighter than last years VT30.
post #8813 of 14509
What's funny was at the BB I was at before, the VT30 was on a wall behind the Elite. One look at those whites on that wall of displays which was playing the BB in-house ads and you'd see why it would have been pretty easy to beat that peak white level. I know people tend to use the word 'dingy' to describe some plasma's white and I don't really subscribe to that term, but looking at the VT30 I could see why some use that term.
post #8814 of 14509
Which out of the box mode should I use to demo the Elite in a store?
post #8815 of 14509
THX, but try other modes since people react differently.
post #8816 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by imws View Post

Which out of the box mode should I use to demo the Elite in a store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

THX, but try other modes since people react differently.

I'd recommend using the cnet settings in THX Movie mode. The Elite at the Best Buy I went to was in THX Movie mode but was really fouled up and had I not gone back and changed the settings I would have dismissed the Elite without hesitation.
post #8817 of 14509
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

No, actually the reasoning is if nobody sees it, it's probably not an issue. The latest 'issues' are issues that nobody saw since the release of the Elite. There is a difference.

Kevin mentioned, and accurately so, there are many times issues arise on test instruments that can't be seen with actual material. Likewise as he said, you can have a perfect calibration and yet something looks wrong with the image.

True and test patterns are one thing, but an actual artifact manifasting itself under normal viewing conditions is another. If you can't see it then it's simply not an issue for most, just perhaps an issue for one's ego or bragging rights. Experts will often see things that we do not as the true video enthusiast we are. We represent the majority out there and our opinion is just as important if not more important as the professionals.
post #8818 of 14509
I have to agree with many of Elite owners here that there is far too many posts from non-owners mentioning the drawbacks. I'm going to make an assumption that a vast majority of people reading and keeping track of this thread are grown adults. If you can afford to buy this TV, or any higher end panel and reading AVS more than likely you would be going to a store to demo the panels. I would think it tends to be rare that someone will just buy a high end TV without first talking a look at it. If they did, I'm betting they already have a backup plan to return it if they didn't like it. I see so many like new TVs on Amazon's Warehouse page and my guess is many of those are returns from customers.

I'm not saying drawbacks should be dismissed either. Opinions and user sensitivity is going to vary. My case is DSE, which I still have not really seen other than one case where I'm guessing it's DSE. Even if it is the effect, it just doesn't bother me at all. It's funny that the debates in this thread made me think of an argument I had with a friend once over driving a manual transmission vehicle. My preference is to drive a manual which I've been doing for over 17 years. It's second nature to me now. My friend asked me about the benefits and negatives which I answered as objectively as possible. He then bought a manual and 6 months later blasted me for misleading him. My point is we all can attempt to give all the available information but in the end, each individual will still have their own preferences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imws View Post

Which out of the box mode should I use to demo the Elite in a store?

THX setting is widely considered the best out of box but if you already have access to the remote, try all of them. You can also input CNETs THX setting if you end up liking the out of the box THX mode. Adjust the motion enhancement setting to your preferred liking as well. CNET's is set on low while I prefer it off.
post #8819 of 14509
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD 335 View Post

I have to agree with many of Elite owners here that there is far too many posts from non-owners mentioning the drawbacks. I'm going to make an assumption that a vast majority of people reading and keeping track of this thread are grown adults. If you can afford to buy this TV, or any higher end panel and reading AVS more than likely you would be going to a store to demo the panels. I would think it tends to be rare that someone will just buy a high end TV without first talking a look at it. If they did, I'm betting they already have a backup plan to return it if they didn't like it. I see so many like new TVs on Amazon's Warehouse page and my guess is many of those are returns from customers.

Exactly! It's almost as if these non-owners want us to be completely dissatisfied with our purchase. If I didn't like the display I would have returned it, especially after spending so much on it. I did heavy research into this and other displays, and for me this was/is the best display, as plasma is completely out of the question because of image retention issues that will always be there with that technology.
post #8820 of 14509
I was at the shootout yesterday. For me the VT50 and the Elite were the top 2. I still like the Elite better because its better shadow detail is more important to me than the color inaccuracies present in the Elite, along with the better black, but that's one of those things that will vary from person to person. Both sets look great.

As far as that pulsing example they are refering to in the shootout, it was not pulsing but a motion artifact from the 1080i conversion. None of the content that was shown had the actual pulsing symptom we owners experience, which has nothing to do with motion and in fact shows up in non-moving, fairly dim areas like walled interiors, bedding and such.
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